???

What in the world makes you think me doing more homework will make your discussion more intelligent? Seriously. You posted an **opinion**, not even your opinion, and I mocked it. I'm unsurprised you can't support it, I doubt it is supportable at all, which is why I called bullshit in the first place.

Putting the burden on me to find support for someone else's opinion is ridiculous. You've got it, or you don't, or you just have faith, like JBKlyde.

Sorry - won't play that here.
You admittedly don't know what you are talking about on this issue.
I posted a video and thought that it was only fair to post the piece that went along with it.

I'm not playing, man. Yes, I have a certain amount of ignorance, and a certain amount of skepticism about this issue. I've no problem admitting my ignorance. I didn't just admit it, I confessed it and offered it as justification for wanting to know more about the issue, which you gave me the impression you have. I asked nicely, too. But you rebuffed my request by telling me to do my homework. Ok, Dad.

I did watch your video. I did read the article. You know what I found there to support the assertion that there's a memo outlining a plot by ATF and DoJ officials? Bupkis. Which is what I am getting from you to support such an outrageous claim. For the record, ON the record, I visited Rep Issa's site on this subject too (more homework!). I thought if *anyone* had such a document, it'd be him. Here's the result of my homework:

Attachment 35802

Check my homework yourself here.

Really? Lets start a little more broadly with the overall issue, ok. Forget the memo that guy was talking about. Thats got very little to do with this issue. Why you are so fixated on that is beyond me. The memo isn't an issue right now. Get an overall understanding of whats happened first.
BTW, you are far better than that link you posted...
try this link as an appetizer and then move on to some outside sources of your own.

Also, try watching a few videos of the actual hearings from the first go round and then follow up with some of the newer ones from this week.

ETA - Here is the home page ... http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/

Huh. That link is to a .gov site that is basically a portal to http://fastandfuriousinvestigation.com/.

So what, HM? I said its a start. Offer a few more sites of your own to add to the list. There is plenty of info out there.

It's odd, is all. If you set up a .gov and a .com, and have one point to the other, actually hosting on the .gov would feel more legit.

(And my firewall agrees, amusingly.)

I don't want to start a little more broadly, I've already started.

Forget the memo? No, I won't unless you're willing to recant it. That kind of smear is a problem for me. "Obama is an anti-capitalists socialist alien who is actively trying to destroy the economy according to these memos." and then blathering on about something else entirely. Oops, never mind that, that's not an issue. It's an issue for me if I'm going to try to gain a broader understanding. If I'm going to try to develop the level of credibility I give one source or another. Unsubstantiated claims like that are not just trivial bullshit, they're real.

So, when I hear crap mixed in with other unknown stuff, what can I use to asses the validity of the unknown stuff? Well, it hangs out with crap, so... that's one data point.

Look, I think this "plan" by the ATF is stupid. Probably illegal too, though that is to be decided. Hopefully decided based on facts. And I'm trying to gather facts, not political bullshit/pandering/bloviating/propaganda. I'll set it aside as some kind of political irrelevancy when it comes to the facts of this matter. But it remains a fact about the quality of the source of information. Right now, that source is one that is long on opinion, and short on facts.

V, the information on the memo was posted by Merc in post #114. The link is to a CBS article on the memo, and the article includes links to emails and memos sent by the ATF.

Hey Clodfobble,

Thank you very much for your help. I went to the article at the link you provided (I didn't pay that much attention to mercy's post, though I now see it was there) and read the article, read the pdfs at the links in the article. I found it very informative. Very helpful, thanks.

As for the content, I think there's enough political looseness in this whole situation to allow lots of different ... ahem ... statements fly. Having read the article CF pointed out to me, I find my assessment of the author of the statement "officials plotting for political purposes" reaffirmed; not neutral, not centered on fairness. That's fine, really fine, people have opinions, positions, and I am at the head of that pack. But now I know how to view information coming from that source.

It no longer feels like "bullshit" as I estimated before, but neither do I believe it rises to the level of a conspiracy. I say this because the Demand 3 letter they were "gathering anecdotal evidence in support of" was the third such letter. Apparently Demand Letters have some precedent even before Operation Fast and Furious was pulled out of someone's ass. That's not what I'd call a "plot". Now we can debate, and certainly someone will, what the follow on consequences of this operation will be, or what the motivations were, who knew what and when did they know it, etc, etc. For sure.

Good - you are well on your way ...

Now watch some of the videos on youtube from this weeks hearings. Specifically Issa's would be a good start. Holder is still refusing to comply.

“Did you at any time, at any time, email on your personal account with Lanny Breuer or Gary Grindler with regards to Fast and Furious — ever?” Adams asked Holder. “Yes or no?”

“I don’t know,” Holder responded.

“Would you check and get back with us?” “If you need some help, I’m sure your agency personnel can get into those computers.”

“With regard to the provision of emails, I though I made clear that after February 4, it is not our intention to provide email information consistent with the way in which the Justice Department has always conducted itself,” Holder said in response to Adams’ questioning.

This begs the question - Why not?

This is a pretty right wing blog, but I'm not seeing this reported elsewhere. Take the opinion out and just deal with the details.

Read more:

Link

ATF's mysterious grenade smuggler case: new photos, documents turned over to Congress

Holder is still holding out. Throw his ass in jail.

.

Informative read - more at the link

Link

Politics supercedes all else...

NRA Statement on Fast & Furious

Ammoland
posted June 21, 2012

snip =

Don't understand why Obama used his executive privelege on this. It's toxic ffs.

Probably because it was the continuation and enormous expansion of a program that was a proven failure in the Bush administration, which they knew going in, but politics prevailed over policy so they are going to look terrible when the information gets out. They are going to spin it as a W idea that they simply continued but that won't look reasonable with full disclosure.

Exactly. There's no way of getting through this looking good. But basic rules of damage limitation should have clicked in long ago. This looks so much worse than having bungled something or been cornered into continuing a failed scheme because of politics.

Yeah, they gave it the power to hang around through the election cycle. I really think that, at least through my lifetime, as soon as anyone takes the oath as POTUS they start believing the people around them instead of stepping back and using the brain they got there with. I have a hard time seeing Obama suggesting this or drones or troop surges when he is in the real world. Not staying grounded is probably gonna cost him the election.

Same thing happens over here with the PM.

I've also heard that they thought they were smarter than those looking into it and thought they would give them 6000 pages of mostly useless documents and that would be the end of it. Unfortunately they dicked around for about 18 months and now its in the heat of the election year.
Obama has been far to loyal to Holder and this will certainly have some serious repercussions if it gets any "real" play in the press.

"GOP Oversight Chair Admits There Is No Evidence Of White House Involvement In Fast And Furious"
link

"GOP Oversight Chair Admits HE HAS No Evidence Of White House Involvement In Fast And Furious"
That is different than there "is none" - no?

Not really, until someone produces some, there is none. I'm damn sure if someone had produced any, he'd have it in a NY minute.

In which case......wtf use his executive privelege?

The obvious answer is so they don't get any evidence, but it's possible it is just arrogance. They've largely replaced compromise on legislation with broadened enforcement or lack thereof through signing statements or hidden activities. This is not a recipe for open government or democracy. This is not just an Obama problem, it has been with us a long time.

To head off distracting fishing expeditions.

If the White House agrees with Holder that the redacted documents and portions of documents were redacted properly, but Issa held Holder in contempt anyway (and I don't expect that the White House would be likely to feel any other way), then Executive Privilege is a way to shut down the contempt charge.

Ahh...ok. I sort of half understand that.

Holder will be thrown to the wolves, and Obama will come out stink'in like a rose.

Is that from the Onion?

I wonder if the White House is rope-a-doping Issa.

Good find, MH

That article is long, complicated, and essentially a-political,
so Fortune and CNN should be appreciated for publishing it.
It is certainly an interesting read.

"You can't tell the players without a program"

I can't say I've digested it after just one read, so I'll try again later.

The investigative author was on CNN last night with Soledad O'Brien subbing for Anderson Cooper.
When asked why Holder admitted guns walked in 2011, and why the letter was retracted, her response was "I don't know."
Aside from that, The tool from the R's guy doing the rebuttal interview was AWFUL.

The TV news crawl says the House will vote on the Holder Contempt thing this afternoon.

What then ?

It'll be 0-2 today for the R's. and a huge defeat (as I already predicted) to follow in Nov.
I just don't think they'll get anything. The admin has had over a year to bury whatever,
if anything even existed in the first place.

On Google News today...

Mr Issa, it's your move...

Ah yes, the NRA. I especially enjoyed Mr. LaPierre's instructions on aiming for the head when dealing with federal agents. Since he's still the executive VP of the NRA, I guess they agree.

WAYNE LA PIERRE EXEC VP, $673,617
CHRIS W COX EXEC DIR, $487,176
WILSON H PHILLIPS JR TREASURER, $407,192
KAYNE B ROBINSON EXEC DIR, GENERAL, $413,317
EDWARD J LAND JR SECRETARY, $350,001

(doesn't include the President or the three 1st V.P.'s)

We will never know

LegalTimes.com
9/19/12

DOJ Review Knocks Senior Officials—But Not Holder—Over Fast and Furious

Yeh ... everyone under Holder was guilty yet he knew nothing of it. suuuuuuuuuuure.

Yeh, you can take your pick ...

In government: Plausible deniability
In real life: Parenthood :)

Police chief killed with rifle lost in ATF gun-tracking program

Our government has issues.

Mexican Police Chief. If we're going to worry about everyone killed by American supplied weapons, we're going to have to establish a Bureau of Weapon Killing Worry. It would be bigger than Homeland Security. :rolleyes:

The guns that got away from ATF, while not right, are a piss-hole in a snowbank. I wonder how many will die from the $1.5 BILLION we gave the Egyptian military this year.

It probably became a story just on principle, our guns getting into the hands of Mexicans, REMEMBER THE ALAMO!