Smart on their part. The Egyptian military just asked Britain and the EU to freeze all assets from Mubarak's regime.

People always get sick of the same old corruption. Time for a new blend.

Bahrain's royals join the list of American supported despots in some trouble.

I really hope the moderate Muslims get what they want.

(That is the most Anti-American statement you will hear for the next 25 years!)

From UT's repost:

False.

This is one of the few actual scientific studies done on the issue and the second time that UCLA did the same study. The results are the same.

Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...UCLA-6664.aspx

wow - just heard Lara Logan was sexually assaulted and beaten friday night while reporting in Cairo.

that is a bummer.

Egypt is not a Muslim nation. Most Egyptians are Muslim, but many are Christian, and some are Jewish, Bahai, Druze and other.

Egypt has same principle as America for religion. Egypt does have state religion (Islam), but is not mandatory and no political group may be religious in nature.

Egyptians are Egyptians first. You see the Christians form wall of people around Muslims praying during riots? Or Muslim human wall around Coptic church at Christmas? We protect each other from radicals of any group, who are the enemies of Egypt and all of our religions.

This is a disgrace for my country. :(

Reporters for Ted Koppel such as Chris Wallace, Brit Hume, and Jeff Greefield were accused by wacko extremists of being liberals. Then when they worked for Fox News, they were no longer liberal? Fox News has a secret bath house to purify liberal reporters.

so does CNN. all networks are going to broadcast what they deem will increase viewers.

just sayin.

Not necessarily. Barbara Walters was all about celebrity interviews. That was popular and profitable. But the conflicts between Barbara Walters and Peter Jennings was summarized by Peter's statement. "That is not news."

The networks (CBS, NBC, and ABC) never made money from their news departments. Which is why CBS, in an effort to maximize profits, is now reported to have only two overseas journalists. Both in London. The (rumored) 52 freelance correspondents under contract to CBS have been released.

i did not know that. interesting. but then again the major broadcasting networks always did use sitcoms for their income. no surprise there.

That is a bummer. I really like her. I think she is the bomb...um, better choice of words needed. I think she is the A #1 awesomest.

I'm not familiar with who she is, but that sucks for her. The little bit I read in the paper made it sound like she went through hell.

She's a lovely woman, an intelligent and crackerjack reporter. This article says she was sexually assaulted. Fucking bastards. :mad2:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=T2

There's peanuts and a prize inside her?

Probably. Why, do you have peanuts envy?

No, but I get snoopy, sometimes.

Yeah, I've heard that Snoopy is easy.

Appreciate a tremendous risk that Ted Turner took when he started CNN. News was not profitable. Turner created a broadcasting news service to make a profit. Because Turner was doing something innovative, he could not raise capital from investment banks – Wall Street. However Michael Milken had developed a way of financing innovators. Junk bonds. In its early days, Drexel Burnham was making possible so many innovative companies. To do things that that ‘we fear to innovate’ Wall Street investment banks would not touch. Risky was to make a profit on broadcasting news.

Drexel Burnham's other success stories are legends of American industry by also doing things so new. Including Steve Wynn's Golden Nugget and Mirage casinos. And many Vegas hotels. Malone's TCI which became the world's biggest cable-TV firm. And numerous Rupert Murdoch projects. All those were also not worthy investments on a Wall Street that could not see innovation even if it is in their cocaine.

Almost nobody thought broadcast news could make a profit.

The f*ckers in Bahrain are shooting their own people with live ammo. One of my friends was ordered to leave a metric assload of ammunition behind when his unit left Bahrain... yay for allies!

Steve Inskeep did an interview with Vali Nasr this morning. His take on the unrest is pretty clear-eyed.

... and reports are that in Libya pro-govt forces - apparently brought in from Chad - have killed around 70.

Using outside forces against domestic uprisings is an old and vicious trick, but it works.

Bahrain GRAPHIC NSFW

The Brits used to play that card in the bad old days.

Bahrain looks like a lose - lose for the US, we're allied to an oppressive religious minority who can't afford to have democracy break out among a probably religiously intolerant majority...

Libya on the other hand...?

The main idea I got from Ali Vasr was that those in support of the uprisings may appreciate the international systems of trade and finance if not the Western way of life in general so this doesn't have to play out badly.

democracy and personal freedoms are fundamentally the fruit of western civilization. Does anyone else find this ironic in light of the fact that the people in the countries revolting seem forcefully anti-western?

I disagree with the anti-western bit. A significant % are anti-western, true, but quite a lot want western style democracy and rights. (The sort we pretend we have, not the crappy ersatz version we actually have :p: )

As to which group is bigger, I only have media reports to judge by, and that isn't much use, but when I see footage of the protests I look to see what they are wearing. Traditional robes, or jeans and jackets? I see both, and I see quite a few women with their faces, and even their heads, uncovered. Quite a few western-style logo T-shirts, too.

I guess it varies from country to country, too.

Maybe soon some Bahrain soldiers will start having accidents when off duty, yes?

Libya. WTF.

Crazy can be multi-generational. I hope the protesters have a plan because that state is going to fall.

The six-day-old uprising had reached the capital, Tripoli, where government buildings on Monday were in flames and police were noticeably absent from the streets. There were signs of growing disunity within the government and reports that several senior officials had resigned and joined the protesters.

In a rambling, disjointed address delivered about 1 a.m. on Monday, the son, Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi, played down the uprising sweeping the country, which witnesses and rights activists say has left more than 220 people dead and hundreds wounded from gunfire by security forces. He repeated several times that “Libya is not Tunisia or Egypt” — the neighbors to the east and west that both overthrew their veteran autocrats in the space of the last six weeks

Hmmm... Gaddafi headed for Venezuela? Chavez could get himself in trouble.

Libyans are not as nationalistic and homogenous as Egyptians or Bahrainis so it seems there is a potential chance of civil war, breakup, a new brutal dictator, or any combination in the upcoming years. It will be extremely difficult to start a democracy there if many citizens see themselves as a member of a particular clan or tribe over a citizen of Libya.

Have heard that the airforce are bombing civilians.
Not verified the last I heard.

Not totally sure why people are surprised. I don't mean people here - I mean talking heads and politicians.
You think nice guys get to hold onto dictatorships?
Bastards rise to the top by force. Fucking bastards stay there because they are not afraid to use it/ too afraid to lose it.

I think most anti-Western hatred in these countries is from the fear of losing their cultural way of life. This fear is preyed on and magnified by the ignorant and the powerful who want to maintain the status quo. If you sat down with an averagely intelligent anti-Westerner you would find the things they are most against are founded on lies. The remainder will be religious or cultural differences.

Think how average Americans in the 50s and 60s were terrified first of Socialism and then young people who wanted to grow their hair. It's not always rational.

FYIY, Gadaffi shored up a lot of African Muslim states.
(Malawi for example is not a dictatorship but has had the same leader since 2004. Unusual in a democracy.)

Apparently these civilians were trying to take a military base. This does not look good...

Wiki has speculated over 500 deaths now. That means 300 have died today.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/internat...-base-1.344775

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Li...ts#21_February

Has anyone considered that the whole middle east is erupting and that it's very likely to go nuclear?

The western world is not going to sit by and watch genocide on telly for much longer.

2012 is only months away.

Think about it people. This could be the end of the world as we know it

Is it supposed to be December 21st, or December 22, 2012? I'm too lazy to look it up.

No idea. I've never really looked into it to be honest.

My post was half tongue in cheek, but still, this situation is not good, and it's getting worse by the minute. Literally.

I am afraid of how this is going to end.

Which middle east nations have nuclear weapons?

Well there's Israel, and possibly Iran, but it doesn't really matter if no one in the middle east has them. Plenty of other states with a stake in the outcome of the crisis there do have them, and may elect to use them.

Why would they do that? There is no benefit. Nations do nothing without some kind of payoff.

I agree with Uday here. Bringing up nuclear attacks is unreal and if anything irresponsible, Ali.

*snort* I'm pretty sure there's nothing irresponsible about posting the word "nuclear" on a messageboard.

Oh UG, you do have the weirdest choice of words sometimes. lol

Seriously though, the middle east is a tinderbox of repression which has been building up heat for so long now, and if the people are choosing now to have a revolution, what do you think the dictators and other corrupt individuals in charge of things are going to do? Usually they just systematically murder everyone that gets out of line, but Egypt has shown us the power of multi media, and I just don't think the international power houses are going to get away with turning a blind eye again.

I just think the situation is lethal and I think we're all going to be involved in the end.

It seems the Libyan forces have been strafing and possibly bombing their citizens in Tripoli, which is bloody vicious, but not nuclear.

Unless Ali meant it metaphorically. But in one respect, Ali is right. Long established dictatorships are being shaken, long repressed citizenries are stretching their muscles and looking at throwing off yokes, etc. all though the Middle East and Africa. This has spread as far as China! Multiply that by all the various political and religious differences, add a few thousand years of grudges, and raise it to the power of OIL, which draws in pretty much every other country on Earth. Lord knows how this is all going to end up.

There is one way the nuclear fear might come about. In most of the Arab states near Israel, the general populace sympathise with the Palestinians, but their leaders have been influenced by diplomacy to not attack Israel. Most notable, Egypt is participating in the seige of Gaza, despite the fact that (Uday can correct me here) the vast majority of Egyptians oppose this.

So, here's a scenario: populist revolt sweeps the Arab nations, new governments take over, they are unable to meet thier peoples' unrealistic hopes, decide a bit of foriegner-blaming is the thing to do, and end up making war on Israel. Israel got da bomb. As a last resort, they might well use it.

I think this is unlikely, but not impossible.

ETA: BTW, Hi, UG, been a while, how have you been?

I agree. The real problem in most of these place, more so in Libya and less so in Egypt, is that if there is no organized group in place to step up and seize the reigns of power until some electoral process can be put in motion then you run the risk of replacing one dictator for another, or in the case of this region, a more radical Islamic organization. I only mention the radical Islamic elements because often in the background of the chaos of these countries there is a well structured religious organization, with leaders and followers. Without a plan the result could be worse than the previous situation. I don't know. Time will tell.

This is hearsay, but seems to come from eyewitnesses. There was a funeral procession following the deaths of protestors. They left the burial site and marched back into the city centre. As they passed a military base they were greeted by the soldiers and 60 were invited in as representatives. They were not attacking the base, but the troops did seem to be trying to pacify them because of the large number.

They were all shot and the bodies thrown into the street.

Again - this is hearsay, but it enraged those present because the men were greeted as friends, kissed and hugged. In the Arab world to turn on a person you have greeted in friendship is one of the worst crimes imaginable.

So that part at least sounds palusible.

Russia blames Google for stirring Egypt unrest-WSJ

what fools....

http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisi...110222?sp=true

Merc I watched a documentary the other day where Ugandan schoolchildren blamed homosexuality on Western influence and specifically mentioned a Rhianna video (I haven't seen it - I think she kisses a girl).

Given that homosexuality is already punishable by imprisonment there, and there are moves to make it a capital punishment, that's one hell of an advertising campaign.

Poor old Coca Cola. They wish they could have that kind of influence.

I think one of the great influences on that issue in many of the African countries is the religious evangelical who are selling a radical form of Christianity to the masses. There has been a number of articles in recent years on the subject, I will see if I can dig some up.

In the mean time Reason Mag is a great source for logical discourse. This is pretty good:

The End of a Libyan Crime Family
They might hold out temporarily, but it’s over for the Qaddafi clan.

http://reason.com/archives/2011/02/2...ibyan-crime-fa

It's definitely coming from the churches. And the teachers hold to fundamental doctrine too - no idea if they recommend killing for eating prawns or the stoning of disobedient children though.

One of the clips I watched showed a sex education class where it was claimed "A man's anus is licked like this" simulated the sucking and licking of an ice-cream "Aad then what happens, even poo-poo comes out, and then they eat the poo-poo." This is what they teach their children. Homosexuality = coprophagia.

Would Two Girls One Cup blow their minds?
Oh no, sorry. It would confirm their suspicions

I hate to say it but usually their leaders are more often concerned with consolidating power and getting the bulk of revenues and kick backs from oil or mineral contracts and less concerned with what is happening to their people. They need to reign in those religious zealots.

Oil? Africa?

Yes of course all they want is to consolidate their power. And no, giving a damn about their starving people is not even on the agenda.
But this kind of sick homophobia, where they declare it non-African, and claim it has come in as a disease from overseas is just repulsive.

Historically Africa had a (slight) tolerance towards homosexuality. Along the lines of don't ask don't tell. Now they believe gays are actively recruiting.

There are far too many reports to deny that across the African continent straight men believe sex with a virgin female can cure a man of being HIV positive. How many women does that infect? And how many therefore give birth to an HIV positive baby? (I know it isn't 100%, but hell it raises the risks)

But a gay man finds another man to kiss, to hold, to care for, to love. He might end up sucking his cock, rimming or fucking; in truth it's more about a connection between two people. And they can be prosecuted. They can be imprisoned. They can be CONDEMNED TO DEATH. The latter is a big thing for the majority of the Wstern World who eshew the death penalty; entry to the Europeon Union depends on it for example.

What do you think is cause people to listen to those religious zealots in the first place?

Facebook?

(i couldn't help myself) (sorry!)

It's easy for religous zealot leaders to motivate and organize religous zealots, so they can make concerted efforts, whether in speech or violence, to promote their viewpoint. And if they have a prominent voice, they can accuse others of not being religious enough, which can turn people who aren't zealots, but still have a feeling that more religious is better, against those targets.

I hope Egypt's military allows a true representative government, but if they do, then the Egyptians are going to have a huge job cut out for them. The theocrats will never stop trying to take over.

A friend (ethically challenged) was one of those call center people who would even sell bonds from a Nigerian Prince. Best people to call were the most religious. They would religiously believe the first thing they are told. And then deny with aggression when reality showed them that truth was otherwise.

The most religious, in history, are some of the most dangerous. Because they are the most easily brainwashed. Because they never learn what is necessary to know something. And because they promote that "god's decree" at the expense of mankind.

One need only read the discussion Pedophilia Irish Style to appreciate how religious people will condom and continue to hide child rape - for the greater glory of god. No honest person would find that acceptable. The cover up (in Philadelphia) is traceable to all three past Cardinals. This latest coverup traceable to the Cardinal's man who was supposed to identify and avert pedophilia.

Meanwhile, Voices of the Faithful, a church group demanding reform, has been banned or uninvited from many parishes. Their demands based in facts is objectionable to the more emotional in that religion.

Three examples of who is most easily manipulated by organized religion, corrupt leaders, and religious zealots. Advertising is so effective for the same reason. Large numbers of people only believe what they are ordered to believe. They feel rather than think. Even forget from junior high science what is necessary to know anything - always required hard facts with numbers. Those who know because they feel make fertile ground for zealots. Learning the difference between an emotion and a fact is either difficult or impossible for many.

TW, one thing Catholics will not do is condom ... :D

Sound like United States.

Amen.

If the church says sex is only for procreation, why did they forget to tell their priests?