That settles it Griff...if I run for mayor of Philadelphia this coming year and win, I want you as my Chief of Staff. Yeah, you'll have to spend some time down here in SEPA, but I'll hook you up with a nice apartment over at the Phoenix (b/c you'll have to have an address in the city). Hell, for that matter, I'll find jobs for several members of the Cellar...even if I do that, I won't have nearly as many staff members as John Street currently does. :)

But will you have more then he'll have after he gets done laying people off to make budget? After all, he says he's going to cut management first.

So that explains why 2500 jobs will need to be cut. ;)

This whole deficit situation smells like a rat. Unless his union goons start threatening large numbers of people, I don't see him being re-elected next year. More in another thread...

This wouldn't be the same media that covered the war in Afghanistan and The Persian Gulf would it. You know, the Media that sat in nice safe air condition buildings and reported just what they were told to report. The media that never even protested not being allowed to go where they wanted to go and see what they wanted to see, is that the one. Oh sure I'm sure you are right. I'm sure they will tell the American people the real story behind the curtain of Oz, especially a story that might jepradize Mr. Bush's favorite war to be. Just like they told us every thing about how the government screwed up on 9/11.

Well you are right there, no hot pursuit needed. That’s one criminal that takes care of himself.

Just for the moment I'm going to agree with your self-defense argument. Since this is Self-defense:

1. How does that justify (carefully of course) killing thousands of people that didn't have anything to do with the act? And once they are dead, how does that make you and your people safer, especially when the killing doesn't even lead to the capture or destruction of the master mind or any of his important people? There are some 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world with some 300 million of those considered to be radical. How many of that 300 million will need to be killed to make you safe Maggie? After all any one of the 300 million might be hiding Osama bin Laden.

2. Are we really in danger of being rubbed out by Osama and friends? Or are there things that are more likely to kill us that perhaps we should spend our money and effort on? Let's see: examining some causes of death in the decade starting in 1991: Heart disease: 7.10million; Cancer: 5.53million; Stroke: 1.68million; Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease: 1.22milion; Adverse Reactions to Prescribed Drugs: 1.06million; Accidents: .98million; Diabetes: .69million; Pneumonia, Influenza: .65million; Alzheimer’s Disease; .45million; Nephritis, nephritic syndrome, nephrosis; .36 million; Septicemia: .31million; Suicide: .29million; Homicide: .17million; AIDS: .14million; Terrorist action .003million (or 3001, My reckoning of US citizen terrorist deaths are as follows: Trade towers: 2,726; Waco: 80; Murrah Building: 167; Washington Sniper 10; Bombing of the Kenyan embassy: 12; First bombing of the trade towers: 6; for a total of 3001.).

Well I don't know Maggie, it looks like you and your people are 46 times more likely to die of AIDS then of Osama. Perhaps we should bomb Gay's and Intravenous Druggies. I'm sure the LA, SanFransico and New York, being full of good citizens, won't mind the collateral damage since they know that we are being careful. Seems like we spent $several billion killing a few thousand Afghanis and didn't get Osama. We spent $2.3 million in Africa on the AIDS thing. Are we really using our resources wisely?
Apparently you and your people are 353 times more likely to get rubbed out by prescription drugs. If Osama has you worried you must be absolutely terrified when you open your medicine cabinet. I can see why you are upset. It's enough to give a person a heart attack. Speaking of hearts, you and your people are 2366 times more likely to killed by your own hearts then by Osama. Is that ironic or what? Maybe you should try a pre-emptive strike, Maggie, before your heart has the chance of doing you in.

[edited for spelling by, be]

1. How might the world be safer because there was a strong, resolute response to 9/11? Considering that 9/11 was, in itself, made possible by the lame response to the previous terrorist attacks? Who knows what sort of petro-bucks would be flowing into bin Laden's group right now, if we'd just shrugged and said eh.

2. Why not be honest and calculate your numbers based on economic damage, not simply those immediately killed.

Nice move--baiting and a smear job all at once. Whoever it is that you might think "my people" are, "Gays and IV drug users" is certainly wide of the mark. (Lesbians are not at higher HIV risk than the general population. Bisexual women are perhaps higher-risk than lesbians to the extent of their unprotected sex with men....which probably still leaves them at lower risk than straight women. All irrelevant to the present discussion.)

The people I want stopped *aren't done yet*; by their own claim this is only the beginning. Your pseudoactuarial anaysis is also irrelevant to their ultimate goals. After all, when the Nazis first started out they hadn't actually exterminated many Jews yet either, mostly for lack of opportunity. After a few years of appeasement they managed to create some dandy opportunities, though.

Nor are the Jihadists fairly compared to natural causes of death; there will always be natual causes of death; until we learn to be immortal the aggregate death rate will always be 100%.

I happen to think that dying because you let religious fanatics take over is an especially stupid and ignominious way to go. If that's actually to your liking because (even though you've tried to veil this message a little) "Jihadists aren't so bad because they only want to put queers to death", you should perhaps consider migrating to someplace like Nigeria, where lately they've been demonstrating who else is on their list. You might learn something; not all the lessons about the Jihadists are contained in their fatwas.

Lets not forget that even in the good old USA, this is possible. Unfortunately, our nuts are in the forefront of the movement to take the war to their nuts. Our nuts or heretics (yikes strong language) from the Catholic/Lutheran/Episcopalian perspective believe they can bring on the second coming by fighting for Israel and converting the Jews. Sounds sorta familiar doesn't it. The Left Behind series is second only to the Bible in sales to American "Christians."

This weekend marks the end of the Catholic year with the Feast of Christ the King, its a time of reflection for us. The battle between good and evil takes place first and foremost in the human heart where the choice between love and hate is made daily not in some apocolyptic fantasy. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we need to be careful not to empower our nuts who believe church and American state are one and while they have yet to cross the line their nuts have, the potential may be there.

There certainly are lunatic fundie Christian sects that claim to beleive such things, but I wouldn't describe them as particularly Catholic, Lutheran or Episcopalian...if anything that sounds more like lapsed Baptist spin-off.

That aside, I'd rate their "taking over" as about as "possible" as the re-ascendance of the "Heaven's Gate" crowd. To judge their incidence among the populatrion, count the bumper-stickers you see on the freeway displaying the word "rapture"
And that is *exactly* what the Manifesto (remeber the Manifesto?) is talking about when it decries <i>a Christian-chauvinist political agenda that echoes the religious absolutism of our enemies</i>.

The local "Idiotarians of the Left" have been stridently vocal in this thread; there don't seem to be any "Idiotarians of the Right" here.

Whoops, I didn't make myself understood. What I was saying was that Orthodox or mainstream Christianity does not subscribe to this kind of thinking.

Manifesto? Oh that manifesto, maybe its time to read it. ;)

No offense, but you do understand that living in SEPA probably have me sucking the barrel of my 12 ga in less than 6 mos.

Ah...OK...I get it. Parsed your conjunction a bit differently from how you intended it.

Just a touch of conjunctionitist.

Were told by whom? Who exactly is it that tells the media what they can and can't report?

Karl Rove

http://www.dangfunny.com/News/strategery.html

Aw come on Griff...we'll get ya a staff car...and I shouldn't need you more than 4 days a week. Just remember, you only need a Philadelphia address...I'm not asking you to actually live down here. Besides, the kids will love trips to the Please Touch Museum, not to mention the Art Museum and Fairmount Park. The Phoenix (IIRC) is right on the Parkway. Maybe we can get you a small plane and hire Maggie to take you to and from the sticks. :) (See! Jobs for everybody! Next up: Dave will be Director of Attitude.)

Sounds like a Democratic administration to me. :-)

Careful there Griff--a Philadelphia address will make you eligable for participation in the Philadelphia debt reduction program...they call it "income tax"...collectable from folks who live *or* work in the city.

Griff's standard income would be increased by 4.6% to cover the Philly Glee Club.

Cronyism knows no political boundaries. :) Besides, I need some level heads in there, not the current chuckleheads running the game.

You're gonna have to come through with Maggies dream plane. Since we're on the state dime, I can get an old airstrip refurbished that my uncle built years ago. How much runway do we need? A guy up the road has a short strip we can use until our dream facilities are up and running. Now, I've got relatives in concrete, dairy, social services, computer science, flowers, excavating, blood products... lets get the ball rolling. Despite my current LP affiliation, Irish-Americans wrote the book on graft it just comes natural. Let's make hay while the sun shines.

How does another guy get in on this? I can fly too, and I hold the same certificate as Maggie does. I'm a bit out of practice, but that will change next year.

And we haven't heard about Maggie's dream plane yet. Perhaps it's an MD-11! An old airstrip won't quite hold up to that. I'll be going for my rotorcraft rating as well as my IFR rating pretty soon. I can get you where you want to go with a simple Bell JetRanger and some space in your own front yard! ;)

Brian

C'mon, I already committed to nothing bigger than could work in and out of 3000'. Besides, I'm not multir-engine rated.
Rotorcraft *and* IFR? And presumably Instrument Rotorcraft? You must be rich now. :-)

Getting a whirlybird rating will teach you not to use "simple" and "JetRanger" (used prices run about half a mil these days) in the same sentence, too. In fact, "rotary-wing aircraft" is a misnomer, it is well-known that they are not actually aircraft at all, but rather are collections of moving parts flying in close formation.

Operating a turbine helo from your home will teach you new things about community relations...:-)

Oh, I'm here :waves: ... I just happen to agree with the statements in the manifesto, is all ...

But, accoring to the Manifesto that disqualifies you as an Idiotarian of either stripe.

That's one of the things that I thought that made the AIM noteworthy: it explicitly recognizes the parallel between the fascism of the Jhadists and the fascism of the likes of the religious right and "PoinDexter's Laboratory" (right down to the Illuminati logo).

We could always buy one of those turbo props that US Airways is apparently using on longer flights these days. (See my vacation thread in the Manifestos.) I hear those planes are loud though.

Hmmm...Brian...where to put you in the mix? Lessee, so far, we've got:

--Griff as Chief of Staff
--Dave as Personnel Director (aka Minister of Attitude)
--Maggie as Official Pilot (we can come up with a fancier name later)
--Shepps...fuck, what do I do with him? Political advisor is definitely good...Political Advisor/Head of Information Technology is even better.
--Brian...I think I'd like to have you and Hubris as security specialists. And this is PA, so you have more freedom with your weapons than in MD (or so I would assume). We'll make you the backup pilot if Maggie is sick or something.
--Hermit22 is going to be the "pure left" side of my staff. I have to have at least one of those, and people would scoff if I brought in some young punk from Melbourne. ;)

I need a "man on the street." In this position, this person just hangs out...at cheesesteak stands, in coffee shops and diners, wherever...they're going to be the "pulse taker," seeing what the people are saying. Joe seems to be the deep undercover type...you're hired.

You like to make up your own meaning to a post, and then argue against that. I think that your people are who ever you think they are. That's what I meant by your people. As if a smart real-intellectual like yourself couldn't figure it out. [I amend "gays" in my post to refer to male homosexuals, since you are pretending that you can't figure that out for yourself.] The gays in the previous post are not "your people" but the people your logic would bomb to save "your people", since they are more of a threat then Osama
As much as you try to change the subject, we are not discussing them or their goals. We are discussing the goals of Americans like you who are willing to kill innocent people to feel safe. I'm left to believe that the reason that you don't address the questions possed is that you are unable to defend your morality. The point is that you want have inocent people killed to achieve your own end, just like Osama wants to have innocent people killed to achieve his ends. It would seem that a real-intellectual like yourself could be honest about it a least, and not hide behind the usual political slogans.

Then are you also Madame Maggie, that you can predict what is to come? You really predict that Osama will be able to build ovens to roast us in? You really predict that Osama will have the power to pop us in? You need to be reminded that the Nazis had an Army, Navy and Air Force. Where is Osama going to get that? Again you haven't said how many you are willing to kill to prevent that from happening. The Nazis were willing to kill all the Jews to make the world safe for Aryans. Where does it stop with Muslims Maggie? 2million is that enough for you?

What the heck does appeasement have to do with it? Explain please how not blowing up shepherds and shopkeepers, yes and even soldiers in Iraq is appeasement to Osama.

I know that I don't know as much about history as a real-intellectual, but it seems from what little I know that certain groups of humans have always had other groups of humans as enemys. How is being killed by your enemy any less un-natural then by your heart? Are you less dead when you are killed by your heart then by a bomb? Are your loved ones less sad or even less angry? If it is no big deal to be killed by your heart or your drugs, or Ford, or Firestone, why does death by Osama incite you to bomb Iraqis?

Really? More stupid then being killed by the drugs given you to make you better? More stupid than being killed for celebrating a wedding? How are they going to take over? And if they can, how is bombing bombing two puny countries like Afghanistan and Iraq that already have no way of invading us going to prevent the take over?

I apologize if I've tried to veil my message; if I have it's been unwitting. (Oh my, there's an opening for you). I think however that I've already condemned killings by both sides of anyone. And to that I'll add my condemnation of take overs. I hope that is clear enough now.

I said nothing about Jihadists wanting to put queers to death. I think that either you like the straw man approach to argument or you don't read posts very carefully.

Actually, if I were to migrate I'd pick someplace like Norway, which doesn't seem to have to blow anybody up to get along and be safe. But if all us pacifists did that then who would protest your quick draw mentality? Besides I must make amends for the people I've killed for God and country, by trying to prevent more of the same. If I must suffer your sharp tongue in the mean time so be it. This time it would be nice if you actually answered the points I’ve made. Who knows? If your argument is impeccable then I may be converted back into a killer.

Thanks for clearing that up, I guess.. If what you meant is "US citizens" then you should probably say that; following directly behind your comments about AIDS it wasn't very clear.
OK, must have been just me saying it and you ignoring it then. You'll have to pardon me if *I* don't ignore it.
Well, that was the substance of both the Manifesto and my explanation of my point of view: the Jihadists and their goals. Since you consider that "changing the subject" we're at cross-purposes here. "Bringing the entire planet under sharia law" is their stated goal, but that doesn't bother you (yet), so you go ahead pronounce it "not the subject".
I see....the Jihadists and their goals aren't the subject, but their means are. Very well. They seem to have done OK so far without their own Navy and Air Force...stealing boats and airliners seems to be good enough. As for an army, maybe you haven't noticed, but binLaden claims to *have* an army. Of course his asymmetric warfare tactics rely a bit on the likes of you trying to tie his target's hands.
Gee, that's funny....so are the Jihadists, and they'll throw in the rest of the infidels, no extra charge. How about that. Just a coincidence, right?
Well, you keep hammering at that, even though it's not true. My view is that using innocent people as shields isn't a tactic that should be honored.

Far from *wanting* to kill innocents, I'd be delighted to see the Jihadists stand on their own rather than run and hide behind innocents after striking and then exploit any results for propaganda. Of course their story is that *our* innocents aren't innocent, but the ones they hide among are. Very convenient.

You seem to admire such tactics, or at least think the US should play along with them, so I doubt we can agree on this subject.
That's one of the nice things about being a small NATO member, I suppose. The bigger guys provide your defense for a few decades, and then you can sneer at them for it as a bonus. Nice.

I'm sure Norway is safe--for now--as long as somebody else is the priority target. But the Jihadists say they will get around to Norway eventually, so you'd better have Plan B standing by in case your point of view prevails, after all, you're an infidel.

Almost like being a European Jew in the 1920-30s. So where is it you're living now?
You could certainly do that from Norway as well as you are now. I still think you should try Nigeria, though.

That would rule. I am digging this fantasy more and more every time something new is posted about it :)

Security specialist, eh? Hmmm...

How about "Minister Without Portfolio" instead? I prefer not to be encumbered with trivial details like job descriptions when I work.

I don't think that would fly here. We'd at least have to give you a nice-sounding title, so that the snoops over at the Philadelphia Daily News and FOX Philadelphia won't be too suspicious.

Yeah, get with the program. :-) Titles aren't meaningless, but a good pol doesn't allow hirself to be constrained by them.

Besides, if what you're really up to is in your job description, it can hardly be described as a "covert activity". If you're smuggling cigarettes, you don't want a title like "Minister of Agriculture"; that's giving too much away. Better your door should say "Community Relations--Office of the Ombudsman" or some such.