No they're not, they are what they are medically. They think they are the opposite sex and wish to act like they are, but legally they are not.

The law doesn't put a lot of restrictions of people based of sex, other than separate bathrooms and attempting to fool people. That's fair.

So what is the legal reason for separate bathrooms?

It's the law. Not only that, in many states the law specifies the ratio of mens and womens rooms.

And the reason for the law is?

It doesn't matter, want to change it?

so all the elementary schools withunisex bathrooms are breaking the law?

No, because they're single-room. A male and a female would never be in the bathroom at the same time.

(first law I'd change has nothing to do with bathrooms...)

I'm betting all unisex bathrooms in schools are for teachers and staff, not students.

So then what's the problem with directing the kid to the unisex facility ?

You're wrong.

most bathrooms in my kids' school are unisex. Same for all other elementary schools in the district. You really haven't been reading the thread very closely before spouting off, have you?

Your telling me that boys and girls are using the same facilities at the same time and there are no separate boys and girls rooms? Bullshit. That went out with one room schoolhouses.

I don't have a problem with it, other than it will serve to further separate and ostracize the kid from his classmates. My problem is not whether concessions are made for him, it's whether they will ultimately lead to the best results for his well-being. You have to balance letting him establish his sexual identity with the very real fact that he is going to be bullied, no matter how hard the teachers try to keep it in check.

in reply to bruce

Not at the same time, no. But the same facilities. Schools these days have single-toilet facilities. There are only two "multiple occupancy" bathrooms in our school, and they are upstairs next to the 5-8 grade rooms. They are rarely used.

From the link.Two in the building, or haven't you been paying attention before spouting off.

I wasn't questioning you, but quoted you because you answered my question for Bruce.

As for the bullied issue -it wouldn't happen here -our lesbian moms are too scary for kids to get out of line on sexuality issues ;) srsly, though, he'd get bullied anyway -kids don't need to see special treatment to notice "different"

How many bathrooms do you think the kid needs?

(oh and they are probably disabled bathrooms rather than staff ones.....)

One. The same one the other boys use.

you generalised. you did not talk about this school in particular. The norm in other schools is discussed in this thread. So you can't have read it very thoroughly. Before Spouting Off.

You do know you protest too much, don't you? You're too intelligent for this homophobic crap.

I was talking about the subject of this thread which you seemed to have lost the grasp of.
If all the little bastards use unisex bathrooms why would they have to make them available to one kid. Try and keep up.

BS.

the subject was that the school was jumping through hoops to accomodate the boy who felt he should be a girl

many people have pointed out that no, they weren't jumping through hoops, but yet you cling to the "boys need to be boys and pee in the boys bathroom straw" and anything other than this is unacceptable jumping through hoops to bow to PC..

pathetic. you are above this. well my opinion of you is (was).

No, they are not available to all in this school. This school is clearly behind the times in that respect. that said, they do have unisex toilets which they have advised and allowed this child to use. I must have missed the bit where they said he had to use them? I was laboring under the impression that he could still "be a man" if he wanted to....?

No, he can't be a man, he's a second grade boy, and he can damn well wear what the other second grade boys wear and pee where the other second grade boys pee. He is not special.

Everyone is special in their own way. What do the other boys wear? Is is a law? Conformity is over-rated.

You're one of those people who never admits to changing their mind or concedes defeat, aren't you? Your current position in this debate is a dinosaur in the mud. In the future, little (transgender) boys will be using your bones to scare the girls (or strengthen their corsets).

Maybe. And maybe they were born with indistinct genetalia, and were cosmetically altered, to assign them to a specific gender. What would that make them "medically"...? What God made them, or what man decided they should be? Again, I don't know if this is the case here, but, again, I've gotten zero response on this point. I think it goes to the heart of the matter: that gender isn't a neatly catagorized thing, yet we are only comfortable considering it as such.

In such a case, the uncomfortability would be squarely our problem, not that of an innocent kid who is living the experience.

You certainly haven't changed my mind with your attacks and rants.
If someone did manage to change my mind it wouldn't be a defeat.

Neither is a kid in a wheel chair that might need to use a different bathroom. Different, not "special".

Being in a wheelchair would be a valid reason to make special arrangements.
In third grade, when this kid decides he wants to be a Koala Bear, will they add Eucalyptus leaves to the school lunch menu?

The idea of breaking down barriers is so that the things we percieve to be 'different' now, might be considered normal or even ok in the future.

If we continue to say it's not ok to say you're gay or that you want to wear girls clothes when you're young to those who feel a physical need to do so then those barriers will remain in place and we will continue to have a high number of homosexual males commit suicide rather than come out and say they're gay. They'll continue to be bashed by homophobic males. They'll continue to be abused.

Until we raise the awareness of the general community and take all the hoodoo's away, we'll continue to be a dangerous society for gay people to live in.

And again, I don't see anywhere in the article that they're making special provisions for the child anyway. If the loo's are available to other students also, then what's the big deal?

This has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals or homophobia.

I think it does, and these are my reasons.

Western society is built on gender stereotypes. Everything we do including how we dress is based on male/female roles. This of course means that when uniformity is required as in schools, we have no choice but to revert to those stereotypical norms.

However, as our society has evolved, slowly but surely, these stereotypes have begun to break down. We see women doing traditionally male oriented jobs and we see men doing traditional females jobs as an example. We've seen women start to wear pants over the last hundred or so years along with bikinis and all sorts of other things that once were considered inappropriate or perhaps even 'special'.

I can understand the resistance some people might feel towards these barriers being further broken down, but I'm certain that in the future, children who are now considered 'special' might just be considered ordinary, but none of this will occur without first having to go through the public forum to be debated ad nauseum.

I know I'm on the winning side of this debate though. History tells me this is so.

Then call it whatever phobia you want. It's still wrong.

So it's just your perception on what is valid and what isn't.
You can have a valid perception but it doesn't make it correct.

And if a child can be proven to actually BE a Koala Bear trapped in a human body then the answer is yes. Just like being Transgender IS a provable state.

Human beings can't digest Eucalypt leaves anyway. ;)

Besides, providing such a comparison is simply an attempt to trivialize the situation, and it's not a trivial subject.

How do you prove a second grader is Transgendered?

How do you prove they're not?

Psychological testing.

You have much more faith in Dr Phil's ability, to tell a second grader from his elbow, than I do.

I said Psychological testing. Not quack jobs.

Touché.
How can they test a second grader, except compare his answers and actions to standards? Isn't that putting him into a preset box?

He's a boy. If he and his parents want to make him a girl and change his name to Pat, fine and dandy, do it. Then he'll be a girl and problem solved.
But going through life being one thing, and claiming to be another, is going to bring him, and those around him, nothing but grief. He might even end up in jail.

He might end up in jail because he's a man who likes to wear women's clothing?

This is starting to sound like all those arguments against gay marriage. "You can't let them marry cuz they might want to marry a goat next".

So you deny, that a male dressing as a female is going to at least have a rough road, even if he doesn't run afoul of the law?

Of course it will be a rough road. It's rough for anyone perceived as "different". But a rough road is always better than the wrong road.

Then why not make him what he and his parents claim him to actually be?

At this point, all I see is the report yesterday on CNN of the boy who was killed for being gay and open about it. The object of his affections obviously didn't care too much for that.

I know a young man, age 15, who is very articulate, handsome and brilliant. He is gay. He wears makeup, his hair is spiked yet stylish. Although he and his parents have not openly acknowledged his sexual orientation, things are quite clear. The fear that these families and children live in is a very real thing. You're right. It is going to be a rough road. And these kids are good kids. They just live life a little differently then the majority of the population. Let's hope for peace of mind for the family at whatever road they may choose.

I don't know all the technical aspects of it but I'm assuming the surgery has to wait until the body is matured. Also, I think the law requires it but I'm not sure.

I can just imagine the uproar if this child was allowed to have gender reassignment surgery at this age. Also, there is always the possibility that he will change his mind over time. That doesn't however mean that he isn't right now. Just that you have to allow for the possibility given his youth. There's also a strong possibility that he won't change his mind and will opt for gender reassignment later in his life.

If a kid is willing to put up with the amount of teasing he's likely to get for wearing a dress to school, you would have to say that he's fairly certain of what he wants. I mean seriously, we all tried to go against peer pressure at some time in our school lives, but unless it was something really important, don't most kids end up taking the easy road anyway?

OK, reading this article, along with Sheldon's reasoning, has made me rethink my position.

That said, I'm still skeptical that a second grader is prepared to make this determination? So maybe instead of kicking him in the ass, we can just beat him a little.;)

This story airs on Nightline tonight.

Commence Microsoft Internet Explorer Jokes now......

Maybe the 2nd grader will get bullied some. And maybe he'll change back again. And maybe he won't marry someone and have kids before he decides to be true to himself and gives them something to be bullied about.

Kudos for admitting the rethink, though.

Broken link. :(

Sorry, it works for me.... maybe because I have a LA Times cookie.

No no, not your link Bruce, monster's "this story" link.

Oh yeah, of course.... silly me.:blush:

That's because I'm a dickhead and either deleted or failed to copy the link properly and must have been confused by my already open window on the story when I "checked" it.

This story aired on Nightline last night. Or so I believe. I was in bed by then. Wiped out.

OK. Now it works. Srsly.