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-   -   The Blasphemy Challenge (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=13469)

Elspode 03-14-2007 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf (Post 321209)
I do not presume, however, to restrict your, or anyone else's public expression of your religion. I am not in any way harmed by the posting of the Ten Commandments on the courthouse wall, nor am I offended by a nativity in the public square. One person wears a cross, another a pentacle, yet another a crescent. So what?

I agree in principle. Now, go down to the courthouse and try to erect a big pentacle with the Charge of the Goddess or the Rede on it. Let me know how that works out for you. :D

The question isn't freedom of religion, or even freedom *from* religion. The question is equal access to all religions or absences thereof.

HungLikeJesus 03-14-2007 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus (Post 322870)
Yes. I'm sorry - I meant to say: religion equals +-(:-) and :behead: and :apistola: and :skull: and :reaper: and :dead: and :scream: and :fsm: , except that my finger slipped.

Did anyone get that this: +-(:-) was supposed to be a pope? I couldn't find a pope smiley. This is the closest that I could find: :biggrindu:

SteveDallas 03-14-2007 04:49 PM

Y'all need to pardon me. I ignore almost 100% of religious combat threads. I checked out this one because of UT's Hall of Fame nomination. I haven't read 90% of the posts.
Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf (Post 321209)
I do not presume, however, to restrict your, or anyone else's public expression of your religion. I am not in any way harmed by the posting of the Ten Commandments on the courthouse wall, nor am I offended by a nativity in the public square.

Fair enough... does it bother you when such displays are funded with [your] tax dollars?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 321712)
There's a cloyingly sweet little tale that's almost universal... in response to a child asking, if there's Mother's Day and Father's Day, why isn't there a Children's Day? And the parent replies, Every day is Children's Day.

Well, UT, you should have been in the car when my daughter asked this one. I guess I'm not a good parent, because I didn't say "every day." Instead, I asked her what kind of holiday Children's Day was. She explained to me how all children over the age of 7 would be pampered and showered with every imaginable gift and reward. She also spent a considerable amount of time detailing the torments and suffering that Children's Day would bring to those persons under the age of 4. (They are, presumably, not considered actual "children." I'm sure I don't need to tell you how old the kids were at the time. I'm afraid she still hasn't forgiven the boy for being born and, Copernicus-like, removing her from the center of the universe.)

rkzenrage 03-14-2007 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode (Post 323068)
I agree in principle. Now, go down to the courthouse and try to erect a big pentacle with the Charge of the Goddess or the Rede on it. Let me know how that works out for you. :D

The question isn't freedom of religion, or even freedom *from* religion. The question is equal access to all religions or absences thereof.

I would prefer an alter of Kali & willing sacrifice as is my right under the first amendment as religious conservatives interpret it.

capnhowdy 03-15-2007 08:29 PM

I denounce this goddam thread and the hayseus it rode in on. Just jokin', folks ... roll widdit.

piercehawkeye45 03-15-2007 08:57 PM

When are you planning on making your video rkzenrage?

rkzenrage 03-15-2007 10:32 PM

As soon as I am well enough to set up my office and equipment. This has not been a good month.
Just got done with another set of tests for a new Dr.

Happy Monkey 03-26-2007 03:25 PM

A defense of the Blasphemy Challenge.

rkzenrage 03-26-2007 04:05 PM

BTW, Google/YT banned their acct and removed all their videos from the channel.
They were smart and the BC is on a separate channel and still on YouTube. I really need to make mine. I have a pride problem and need to get over it.
An issue with people who do not know me seeing me for the first time when I am in a lot of pain and this has been a rough month.
Perhaps tonight or tomorrow. I need my wife or someone to help me set-up. I cannot get to everything alone.
Being like this sucks... especially when reminded that some think that I don't even deserve to live. Been a while since I have heard that one. It never gets old.

KGZotU 03-26-2007 11:57 PM

rkzenrage,

Though we have differing inclinations, we have come into this world to work together. It's unfortunate that others have forgotten righteousness in dealing with you. I wish you well.

--Joe

rkzenrage 03-26-2007 11:59 PM

Thanks. I have overreacted to a common political statement that I tend to take personally. I'm getting over it.
I do appreciate your sentiment Joe, it was well timed, meant and needed.
I'm not usually this sensitive... this has been a long week.

rkzenrage 04-02-2007 04:52 PM

This was weird for me, in quite a bit of pain and my first upload.
It is a little known fact that most actors are actually quite shy and I have a real issue with being seen while in pain. I have been promising myself that I would do this for some time.
I know I said Ra twice, screw it... one take.


I also posted some introduction videos.

piercehawkeye45 04-02-2007 10:35 PM

Good job.

It had a lot of emotion to it.

TheMercenary 04-03-2007 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus (Post 323077)
Did anyone get that this: +-(:-) was supposed to be a pope? I couldn't find a pope smiley. This is the closest that I could find: :biggrindu:

They look about the same to me. One uses black magic, the other uses white magic. :D

Toymented 04-04-2007 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 329773)
I know I said Ra twice, screw it... one take.

Bravo :notworthy

Hime 04-06-2007 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram (Post 320479)
Jesus died for somebody's sins...



But not mine.



Name THAT song&artist!

OMG, people, it's Patti Smith, "Gloria"!

Honestly, the fact that nobody got that is the most offensive thing in this thread. At least in the top five most important rock albums of all time.

For the record, I do think we need more people out there saying "hey, I don't believe in God." But I'd rather have it be "Hey, I'm a good person, I love my parents and work hard and give to charity... and I just happen to not believe in God" than "Hey, I'm an atheist and I think religion is stupid! Watch my video about it!"

It is wrong and stupid that there is such a stigma against atheism, and it isn't fair that the atheists are the ones who have to do the work to change it, but honestly, nobody else is.

(for the record I'm an agnostic)

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 02:05 PM

I thought I did say that I work to be a good person and I'm an atheist.
In hindsight, I should have said "I try to be the best person I can" instead of what I did say... it is what I meant.

DanaC 04-06-2007 02:13 PM

Grrr.....I really am rubbish. I should have fixed my blasted computer long ago. Am still farting about on the Council laptop so cannot use youtube yet.

I just never have enough free time to dedicate any of it to formatting the harddrive and reinstalling windows et al.

Hime 04-06-2007 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331304)
I thought I did say that I work to be a good person and I'm an atheist.
In hindsight, I should have said "I try to be the best person I can" instead of what I did say... it is what I meant.

I wasn't addressing you, I was addressing the whole "Blasphemy Challenge" idea. I really can't see it doing a lot of good for atheism in general.

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 02:56 PM

Knowing there are others out there that feel the same way you do is huge.
Again, it is not for the religious.

piercehawkeye45 04-06-2007 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331328)
Knowing there are others out there that feel the same way you do is huge.
Again, it is not for the religious.

True. I seriously don't know many other people that share the same religious views as me.

Hime 04-06-2007 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331328)
Knowing there are others out there that feel the same way you do is huge.
Again, it is not for the religious.

I know that -- I just don't like the snarky tone of the whole thing.

I personally am tired of people assuming that those who don't believe in God have no moral compass, and wish that more people who choose to be public about not believing would do so in a way that would create more goodwill.

Lately I'm realizing that for me, a kid who grew up on the internet, the standard online discussion tone of "I'm smarter than you because I don't care about your feelings" just doesn't impress me anymore. I would rather see prizes given for carefully considered arguments rather than for making the most offensive statement possible.

And as I said, I'm more offended by no-one knowing "Gloria" than anything else. :p

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 03:37 PM

Tone?
I agree with Marilyn Manson, "if more people raised their kids with the teaching of Christ, in their homes, with no Church involvement, this would be a better world".
A true statement, but, for me, only a slight improvement and an unnecessary one. Mysticism and the supernatural are not needed and get in the way of science and reality and I feel children and the world would be far better off without it all together. But, it would be a VAST improvement on the insanity visited on us by organized religion, to be sure.

One of my favorite songs... what drives me nuts is that most kids today think it's a U2 song.

Toymented 04-06-2007 03:44 PM

Are Atheists overly sensitive?
 
Sounds like some here are ultra-defensive about their atheist beliefs. Why do you feel the need to brandish them in such a manner?

Hime 04-06-2007 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331343)
Tone?
I agree with Marilyn Manson, "if more people raised their kids with the teaching of Christ, in their homes, with no Church involvement, this would be a better world".
A true statement, but, for me, only a slight improvement and an unnecessary one. Mysticism and the supernatural are not needed and get in the way of science and reality and I feel children and the world would be far better off without it all together. But, it would be a VAST improvement on the insanity visited on us by organized religion, to be sure.

One of my favorite songs... what drives me nuts is that most kids today think it's a U2 song.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one -- apparently my experience is very different from yours.

By "tone" I mean the whole faux-provocateur, piss-folks-off-on-YouTube deal. Not you specifically.

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 03:46 PM

I can't figure out what you are reading in my posts.
It is not for the religous... so no one is to be pissed-off. There is nothing in my video to piss off an atheist.

Quote:

Sounds like some here are ultra-defensive about their atheist beliefs. Why do you feel the need to brandish them in such a manner?
I am upset about the separation of church and state's degradation in this nation, our children being at risk of being held back on the world stage of science because mental Neanderthals want to teach them pagan superstitions in school instead of actual science, because I must use money with god on it to live, because it is accepted for people to flaunt their religion but when I complain about blue laws and laws making it illegal for people of my beliefs to hold public office I am called names like whiner and extremest, our news stations pander to the metaphysical during the "holidays" with stories about things that have no bearing on the actual realities of this nation and world, our government is now using tax dollars to support religious causes in defiance of the founding notions of this nation and when speaking about it people seem to think it is not an issue worth discussing or doing anything about, the list is long and each is valid.

However... and AGAIN, which so many seem UNABLE to read... this is not for the theists, it is for other atheists alone. For us to feel and connect to our community.

IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE.

Why are you unable to read this?

Hime 04-06-2007 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331350)
I can't figure out what you are reading in my posts.
It is not for the religous... so no one is to be pissed-off. There is nothing in my video to piss off an atheist.

If it is on youtube, it isn't private. Do you think that there aren't religious groups searching for terms like "athiest" on YouTube?

And I keep saying that I'm not talking about you and your video, I'm talking about the contest in general. Maybe I'm missing the point, but to me the word "blasphemy" refers to behavior designed to offend or shock others. Like on DailyKos it would be blasphemy to say that Bush is an excellent president, or on Fark it would be blasphemy to say "I don't like boobies." :D

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 03:57 PM

So what... who cares if the religious don't like what we call it or how we say what we say? Fuck-em.
Good night, get it... it is not for them.

Happy Monkey 04-06-2007 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toymented (Post 331348)
Sounds like some here are ultra-defensive about their atheist beliefs. Why do you feel the need to brandish them in such a manner?

Defensive isn't the right word. Perhaps ornery or uppity. Or unapologetic.

Hime 04-06-2007 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331357)
So what... who cares if the religious don't like what we call it or how we say what we say? Fuck-em.
Good night, get it... it is not for them.

I really don't understand your use of both bold and italics. Do they mean different things?

And I don't understand this preoccupation with who something is "for." When you post something on the internet, it is for the internet. It's like posting something bitchy about a friend and then being surprised when they find it and get mad.

As I said, I'm not religious. But I am annoyed by the constant attempts on the part of non-religious people to perpetuate every annoying stereotype that the mainstream has about us. I'm tired of every political/ideological group I belong to being misrepresented by shrill extremists.

glatt 04-06-2007 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hime (Post 331362)
I'm tired of every political/ideological group I belong to being misrepresented by shrill extremists.

sounds like you need to speak up for the moderates in your group. Appoint yourself as a representative.

Flint 04-06-2007 04:15 PM

ummm... are you or aren't you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hime (Post 331362)
As I said, I'm not religious.

Oh, okay.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hime (Post 331362)
But I am annoyed by the constant attempts on the part of non-religious people to perpetuate every annoying stereotype that the mainstream has about us.

Wait, who is "us" ???

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 04:20 PM

I'm curious about your thoughts on groups run by theists like the Americans United that are as extreme about the separation of church and state?

I don't care if it upsets people, actually it confuses me.

These comments are ironic and amusing, in the community I am thought of as a moderate.

DanaC 04-06-2007 04:40 PM

I have to say....amongst most people I know rkzenrage would not be considered shrill or extreme. I spent two years working in a field that for some reason attracted quite a few happy-clappers but in truth most people I encounter day to day are pretty irreligious, if not outright atheist. Though, I did meet an ex-mormon yesterday who still believes in God.....don't find many of them in Yorkshire.

When i was in my teens in Bolton, most of my friends were atheist and aggressively so. This stuff here? It's pretty soft cell really.

Toymented 04-06-2007 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331350)
However... and AGAIN, which so many seem UNABLE to read... this is not for the theists, it is for other atheists alone. For us to feel and connect to our community.

IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE.

Why are you unable to read this?

Then you have nothing to say to theists?

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 04:49 PM

Yup, and I do and will. That has nothing to do with this.

Toymented 04-06-2007 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 331358)
Defensive isn't the right word. Perhaps ornery or uppity. Or unapologetic.

No reason for atheists to apologize, I see we agree on that. But the rest comes off as insecurity. When you see straight and others don't, use it to your advantage. Don't waste resources trying to convert the masses. Market forces are at work here.

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 331365)
sounds like you need to speak up for the moderates in your group. Appoint yourself as a representative.

I discuss this in some of my videos.

DanaC 04-06-2007 04:55 PM

Quote:

But the rest comes off as insecurity
I am only going off what I read or see on tv....but if I was an atheist in America, I would feel insecure.

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 05:00 PM

I can't imagine what we have to worry about:

Quote:

An Army of Christian Right Lawyers Is Waging War on the Constitution

By Sarah Posner, The Washington Spectator. Posted April 6, 2007.



A look at the Christian Right's legal muscle leading the fight to end the separation of church and state. Tools
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On a dismal, rainy afternoon, over tea and Pepsi and a plate of fries at the Bob Evans restaurant in Cannonsburg, Kentucky, Bill Scaggs, a retired government and public-relations executive of ARMCO Steel, told me why he thinks that homosexuality is the greatest threat to America. "AIDS kills," was his circa 1984 answer, "and the most common way to pass that on of course is from homosexual contact." His voice cracking with indignation, Scaggs added that he refuses to use the word gay. "It's homosexual, or worse," he says. "Gay is in our Kentucky song! They took it away and trampled on it. We want it back."

Scaggs is a board member of Defenders Voice, a local organization formed two years ago by a group of ministers and their followers who fought the formation of a Gay-Straight Alliance (GSA) at Boyd County High School, just up the road from where we sat. Located on a stretch of state highway dotted with churches, dollar stores, payday lenders, and a drive-through cigarette store, the high school had become a place where anti-gay harassment had become an everyday occurrence.

Most of the time, student organizers of the Boyd County GSA said, the basis for the harassment was religious. One of the organizers, Libby Fugett, said that "most of the people at school, even the younger people, who would call us names at school, they would cuss at us; they would say, You f'ing fag, you're going to hell. . . . They just think it's excusable because their religion backs it up. And that was a really big part of it. It's okay for them to sin against us because we're sinners."

Leading the charge against the GSA were ministers, led by the Rev. Tim York, who said they "believe the Bible to be the word of God; we believe that homosexuality is a sin." (In 2004, York, who is now the pastor of a church in Nashville, ran an unsuccessful campaign for the Kentucky Senate on an anti-gay-marriage platform, with backing from the state and national Republican parties.) York and his followers exerted such intense pressure on school officials that it influenced their decision on the GSA, ultimately forcing the students to sue the school system in order have the GSA recognized.

To settle the case, the school district agreed to conduct mandatory anti-harassment training for all students. Although the training consisted of just a one-hour video once a year, York was intent on preventing students from seeing what he considered "indoctrination [into the] homosexual lifestyle . . . indoctrination to tear down the Christian view that homosexuality is wrong. It is reverse discrimination, is what it is." The minister-led group circulated opt-out forms in an effort to exempt students from watching the video, but the forms were not legally binding. York, his followers, and some parents wanted to exempt Christian students, legally, from watching the court-ordered anti-harassment video. To vindicate what he believed to be their legal rights, York knew exactly where to turn for help: the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF).

THE O'REILLY FACTOR

If Bill O'Reilly had a hero other than himself, it would be ADF and its courtroom crusaders lined up to fight the ACLU, Nickelodeon's homosexual agenda, and heathens who are hell-bent on censoring the words "Merry Christmas." ADF's president, Alan Sears, a former Reagan administration prosecutor who, according to the ADF's website, "God uniquely prepared" for his lead role in the organization, admits to being inspired by the right-wing commentator O'Reilly--hardly known for his jurisprudential acuity--to write portions of his book, The ACLU vs. America.

In the first chapter, Sears maintains that "from the very start, the ACLU wanted to destroy from within the America our founders intended." As proof of the ACLU's supposed anti-American, anti-Christian agenda, Sears fingers ACLU founder Roger Baldwin as an "agnostic and socialist who demonstrated Communist leanings"; Baldwin was moreover a friend of birth control advocate Margaret Sanger, whom Sears calls a "eugenicist who . . . establish[ed] the early link between the ACLU and abortionists." Before the reader has turned even ten pages, Sears has established that only ADF's godly legal services can save the country from the havoc the ACLU has wreaked on its justice system and culture.

While the ACLU gained its reputation by winning cases, ADF's reputation--and fund-raising spigot--preceded its first court case. Created just 13 years ago with the support of such Christian Right powerhouses as James Dobson, D. James Kennedy, and Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, it is today the nation's leading Christian Right legal organization. Through its National Litigation Academy, ADF has trained more than 900 lawyers, who commit themselves to performing 450 hours of pro bono legal work "on behalf of the body of Christ." It doles out millions of dollars a year to other Christian Right organizations--many of which are already well endowed--to cover attorneys' fees and costs.

Its three principal goals are protecting the "sanctity of human life" (through litigating cases relating to abortion and end-of-life issues); promoting the "traditional family" (via cases concerning gay marriage and adoption); and ensuring the "religious freedom" of Christians (by portraying them as victims of discrimination on the part of those who seek to silence their ability to "speak the Truth" by preaching the Gospel). Using the propaganda machinery of conservative media outlets and churches, ADF has created a zeitgeist of Christian victimhood among people like Rev. York, who believes Christian students are the victims in Boyd County, and who has long admired ADF's "fight with the ACLU to protect Christian freedom and Christian liberty."

Last year, ADF received over $21 million in individual and foundation funding. Some of the major donors include the Covenant Foundation, financed by the "Granddaddy" of the Texas Christian Right, business mogul James Leininger; various members of the Amway-Prince Automotive empire, including the Edgar and Elsa Prince Foundation, whose vice president, Erik Prince (Edgar and Elsa's son, and brother of Betsy DeVos, wife of the Amway magnate, right-wing financier, and unsuccessful Republican gubernatorial candidate Richard DeVos), founded the Blackwater USA military-security firm; and the Bolthouse Foundation, which is underwritten chiefly with profits from Bolthouse Farms, a family-run California company whose products are often seen at organic markets and Whole Foods. Bolthouse requires recipients of its grants to pledge adherence to a statement of faith that includes the declaration that "man was created by a direct act of God in His image, not from previously existing creatures" and a belief in "the everlasting blessedness of the saved and the everlasting punishment of the lost.".

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 05:01 PM

Quote:

SCHOOLHOUSE "DAYS"

Public high schools--where, as a result of a Vietnam-era case, public school officials can curtail student speech in the interest of preventing disturbances or infringement of the rights of other students--have become one of ADF's principal battlegrounds. Right now, it is gearing up for its annual Day of Truth, scheduled for April 19, which ADF has sponsored since 2005 in response to the nationwide Day of Silence, intended to promote tolerance of LGBT students at public high schools. Last year, ADF claimed that students at 700 high schools participated in its organized effort "to counter the promotion of the homosexual agenda and express an opposing viewpoint from a Christian perspective." Each year, only a handful of ADF's longed-for federal cases emerge. But when they do, ADF makes a public relations spectacle out of them.

ADF recognizes that sometimes strange bedfellows--even the ACLU--can help its divine cause on behalf of the free-speech rights of America's public high schoolers. It recently sided with its arch-enemy (and against the Bush administration) in a Supreme Court case in which an Alaska high school student charged that his First Amendment rights were violated when school officials forced him to take down a sign reading "Bong Hits 4 Jesus." The student, Joseph Frederick, admitted that he designed the sign "to be meaningless and funny, in order to get on television" as the Olympic torch passed through his home town of Juneau in 2002. And even though Frederick's cause had nothing to do with Jesus (and even implicated the Savior in the defiled culture that ADF disdains), ADF has an interest in continuing to shape Supreme Court precedent, an effort it began with its first landmark case 12 years ago and that has been aided by a judiciary increasingly friendly to its views. ADF's legacy in these cases has been to elevate the First Amendment's free speech clause over its Establishment Clause, which separates church and state, and thereby to promote religious speech--even proselytizing speechin the nation's public schools.

In that first landmark case, Rosenberger vs. The Regents of the University of Virginia, ADF represented a student challenging the university's policy of not funding religious student groups through the same student activity fees that funded secular clubs. The Supreme Court deviated from its precedents and based its decision not on the Establishment Clause--which prohibits a state institution like the University of Virginia from endorsing or appearing to endorse a particular religion--but on ADF's theory of "viewpoint discrimination."

In other words, ADF convinced the Court that instead of determining whether the school's funding of religious clubs would be, or would appear to be, an endorsement of a particular religion, it should decide whether or not funding religious groups "discriminated" against them based on their religion. And discrimination is present, the Court reasoned, if the school funded secular clubs but not religious ones.

Rosenberger, then, not only began to bring down the Christian Right's dreaded "wall of separation" between government and religious activities, but elevated ADF's mythology of the victimized Christian to a legal precedent. The case, says Marci Hamilton, professor of constitutional law at Cardozo Law School and author of the book God Versus the Gavel, represented a "fork in the road" in Establishment Clause jurisprudence. "When framed as a viewpoint discrimination issue," Hamilton adds, "it was going to be very hard for the university to win. . . . the word discrimination is so freighted in our culture with negatives that the minute that viewpoint discrimination was on the table, it was really the end."

The Court reiterated its reasoning and applied it to the nation's public elementary schools in a 2001 decision in an ADF-funded case, in which it forced the Milford Central School District in upstate New York to change its policy of prohibiting religious clubs from using its facilities for after-school meetings. Although the Good News Club, one of thousands sponsored nationwide by the Child Evangelism Fellowship, proselytizes to children, under Rosenberger, the school's denial of its use of school facilities to the religious clubs, when it allowed secular clubs to use them, again constituted "viewpoint discrimination." The Court rejected the school's claim that it had to exclude the religious club in order to comply with the Establishment Clause.

According to Hamilton, in "viewpoint discrimination" cases, the plaintiffs need only claim discrimination, without any actual proof, to prevail on their assertion that they were illegally prevented from using school resources for religious activities. Compared with other civil rights law, said Hamilton, "it's like living with Alice in Wonderland."

These cases have become not only the chief legal weapon in ADF's arsenal but also the organizing principle for all its fund-raising, public relations, and propaganda. ADF attorney Mike Johnson summed up his organization's position when he said, "What we're seeing in more and more cases is a discrimination against particular viewpoints, even outright hostility sometimes, against . . . kids who hold a Christian kind of world view who want to share Christian viewpoints or speech on campus, and they're being discriminated against because some people see that as intolerant, or however they characterize it."

"BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN IS IN"

Over the past several years, ADF has seized on "viewpoint discrimination" to put the gay rights movement in its cross hairs. Gay rights, in ADF's view, cannot coexist with its version of Christianity. Anti-harassment codes at schools and universities, gay rights events, and other expressions of freedom or equal rights for LGBT people, necessarily silence Christians, who, ADF insists, are biblically compelled to condemn homosexuality. The "homosexual agenda," then, is ipso facto anti-Christian. Alan Sears, ADF's president, told the Family Research Council's Values Voters Summit last fall that "the homosexual agenda and religious freedom are on a collision course." He scoffed at what he called "propaganda about so-called oppression" of gays, countering that the "homosexual agenda" not only seeks to silence religious speech but it "probably includes the abolition of marriage."

Shortly before the Supreme Court heard arguments in the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case, it had agreed to hear ADF's appeal of another case, one in which a San Diego student, Chase Harper, who participated in the first Day of Truth, claimed that his school prevented him from wearing a T-shirt that read "Be ashamed, our school has embraced what god has condemned" on the front, and "Homosexuality is shameful, Romans 1:27" on the back. After a federal appeals court for the Ninth Circuit (the Christian Right's bogeyman of the judiciary) ruled last year that the school could constitutionally restrain Harper from wearing the shirt in the interest of protecting the rights of other students, ADF issued a press release complaining that the opinion "implied that Brokeback Mountain is in, and the Bible is out."

Back in Boyd County, Kentucky, ADF lost its attempt to exempt its clients from the mandatory training, and is now appealing. Kevin Theriot, ADF's senior legal counsel, says the training video--which he hasn't seen--is trying "change the belief systems of religious students." In fact, the video, which is publicly available, acknowledges that "your religious beliefs are sacred and we're not trying to influence those," and "you have the right to express your beliefs" that "homosexuality is wrong" without harassing another student.

Despite ADF's ongoing litigation, the percentage of students viewing the video has steadily increased since 2004, when barely half the students watched it, to over 87 percent. But there is no longer a GSA at Boyd County High School, which to Bill Scaggs proves that it was just a "flash in the pan," failing to see that his organization intimidated the club out of existence. As William Carter, a Boyd County High School graduate whose efforts to start the GSA resulted in years of personal upheaval and entanglement in lawsuits, said, "Who wants to join a club where you would have to explain to your parents, you know, I'm going to be involved in a federal lawsuit because I'm going to be in a club or someone hit me in the head with a can of pop, or someone's going to kill me? No one's going to do that. It's high school."

The Nation Institute Investigative Fund provided research support for this article.



Tagged as: separation church and sta, aclu, religious right, adf

Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for The American Prospect, The Spectator, The Nation and AlterNet. She is at work on a book about televangelists in politics.

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 05:30 PM

Theists and Atheists/Agnostics keep asking why we are upset or worried. What news do they watch or read? What world do they live in?
These "people" want to teach our kids to be bigots and metaphysics in school... insane!

Happy Monkey 04-06-2007 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toymented (Post 331382)
No reason for atheists to apologize, I see we agree on that. But the rest comes off as insecurity.

Was it insecurity when "under God" was put in the Pledge? Is it insecurity to start Congressional sessions with a prayer? Is it insecurity to end a political speech with "God bless the USA!"? Maybe, but I suspect that to the extent that it is not heartfelt (and it may occasionally be, even for politicians), or pandering (most common), it is an assertion of the dominance of religion. If someone ended a political speech with "Everyone be the best you can be, 'cause there's no God to bail us out!", that would be viewed with shock and horror, and possibly be the end of their career.
Quote:

When you see straight and others don't, use it to your advantage. Don't waste resources trying to convert the masses. Market forces are at work here.
Theists own the market. There is only one (admitted) nonbeliever in Congress, and he only admitted it recently, after years in office. And he's an ornery guy.

Coincidence? No. George H. W. Bush felt perfectly safe saying that he didn't think atheists should be considered citizens or patriots. Who would be willing to say the same about, say, Quakers? Even though, for the type of person anxious to denigrate another's patriotism, Quaker pacifism would seem to be a more logical target. In this sort of environment, the type of person willing to break through that attitude is either going to be an ornery bastard or a saint. And there aren't many saints in Congress.

The semi-anonymity of the web has made it easier for atheists to "publicly" discuss the role of religion in society, so such discussion can be a lot more fair. The non-abrasive tone can be heard. But where has that penetrated into the national discourse? Can someone without what you term "insecurity" get equal time, much less a favorable forum in the national media?

Toymented 04-06-2007 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331396)
These "people" want to teach our kids to be bigots and metaphysics in school... insane!

Some "people" do and some don't. In public schools this is highly variable by school district/region. Some school districts are quite liberal and feature highly progressive "curriculums."

Who's teaching your kids? You or someone you don't trust? Whose choice is that?

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 05:56 PM

Wow, that was ignorant. I am fortunate enough to be able to choose to place my child in a place that does not teach bigotry or creationism here in the bible-belt. Many are not so fortunate.
You sound like an elitist.

Toymented 04-06-2007 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331419)
Wow, that was ignorant. I am fortunate enough to be able to choose to place my child in a place that does not teach bigotry or creationism here in the bible-belt. Many are not so fortunate.
You sound like an elitist.

You sound like a Christian, at least in one regard. You want to see that everyone is exposed to "The Truth."

rkzenrage 04-06-2007 06:17 PM

The difference, truth for me changes based on evidence and perception/understanding of that evidence with changes in technology and ideas as we evolve and grow.

Toymented 04-06-2007 06:45 PM

Does religion evolve?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 331431)
The difference, truth for me changes based on evidence and perception/understanding of that evidence with changes in technology and ideas as we evolve and grow.

How does religion survive in the face of such overwhelming evidence demonstrated by brilliant scientific minds using amazing technologies? Does religion evolve faster than humanity?

Best wishes on your quest, rkzenrage. Toy watches with great interest.

Toymented 04-06-2007 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 331412)
Theists own the market.

And they have tremendous overhead. Think Big Three.

Happy Monkey 04-06-2007 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toymented (Post 331438)
How does religion survive in the face of such overwhelming evidence demonstrated by brilliant scientific minds using amazing technologies?

First deny the evidence, then deny the importance of evidence.

Toymented 04-06-2007 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 331441)
First deny the evidence, then deny the importance of evidence.

Some do, no doubt. Most, however, don't even need to bother.

Undertoad 04-06-2007 07:17 PM

Religions constantly change (or, one might say, evolve) to better reflect the cultures they exist in. We can't see this kind of change because it is long-term. Inflexible religions that don't permit interpretation tend to die off.

rkzenrage 04-07-2007 12:04 AM

One can only hope...though hearing a senator saying that Neptune was reclaiming New Orleans would have been sweet!

rkzenrage 04-10-2007 03:28 AM

This video got pulled, but here is a description from another board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S*****
I think the kid pulled it because I noticed that he allowed comments until somebody said it was messed up that he posted it and it should be a private matter between him and his mom. After that, he stopped allowing comments, and about the time that imrational complained, he pulled it (in fact, I was actually able to get one last look).

It basically went something like this:

mom: so you stopped believing in God? What the fuck is that about?
kid: yeah
mom: that's it, we're gonna start going to church every week
kid: I don't believe in god
mom: no, you got confirmed. You told the pastor you believed in God
kid: well people can change
mom (really pissed and yelling): Oh so you stopped fucking believing in God just like that? (now I'm using sib's recollection) All of the sudden there is no god?!?!?"
(she gets in his face now)
kid: yeah
mom: Then you get nothing .. NOTHING for christmas .. because THAT is what it is all about! Jesus...
kid: all right!!!
mom: no it's NOT all right!!!

video ends.

That's not perfect, but it pretty much sums it up. What's funny is I looked at his youtube profile and it says he's 27. In the description of the video, it says "I" and "me" so unless he's lying about his age, I find it weird that his mom still tries to control him at that age. It was also funny to see the dad sitting there not saying anything during the discussion.


Clodfobble 04-10-2007 09:02 AM

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, rkz. I see (described) a shitty parent with poor communication skills and an immature child who thought it would be a good idea to videotape a provoked argument with his mother and put it on the internet. Who cares what they were arguing about?

pourbill 04-10-2007 10:24 AM

A modest thought
 
It seems to me that if one were to tune through the radio stations in my area, to watch cable TV, or drive down the streets around here, they would find dozens if not hundreds of Christian broadcasts (ranging from the compassionate to the demanding and damning), and yard signs (containing the Ten Commandments or JESUS). We are inundated with Christain advertising everywhere. Look in your yellow pages and see how many companies advertise with the fish symbol to proclaim their belief (and solicite other Christians to patronize them). Why, in the face of this continual barage of Christian belief is anyone offended because a couple thousand non-believers want to proclaim what they believe on Youtube?

Non-theists are second class where I live, in fact, after reading the post about the President saying we were not good citizens or patriots I guess we are second class in America. Funny, I don't remember anyone saying I was not patriotic when I served in the Army during Viet Nam. Whoever posted that Atheists were arrogant because they proclaimed themselves (when major networks regularly feature thousands of Christains doing the same on Billy Graham telecasts) should be ashamed. And the "Challenge" is to individuals to step up for what THEY believe, not an "in your face" challenge to Christian believe.

In America all people should be treated equally, regardless of what they believe or do not believe about religion. I am an honest, tax paying, hard working guy who has raised bright, well educated children who are the same and I don't have to take a back seat to anyone because I do not believe as they do about unseen, unproven, and unbelievable ghosts. Yet, I stay in the closet because I would lose my job if the truth about me were known in the school district where I work. People around here equate good with Christian and they make no allowances for anything else.

Troubleshooter 04-10-2007 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 331450)
Religions constantly change (or, one might say, evolve) to better reflect the cultures they exist in. We can't see this kind of change because it is long-term. Inflexible religions that don't permit interpretation tend to die off.

I'm not sure I agree. I'm no scholar on it but I don't see much in the way of change in Islam in the last 2000 years.

Undertoad 04-10-2007 01:15 PM

It isn't 2000 years old yet.

Undertoad 04-10-2007 01:31 PM

The audio of that kid and his mom arguing:

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchiv...m_im_an_a.html

rkzenrage 04-10-2007 01:41 PM

Wow, at his age... she has issues.


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