The Cellar - RIP John Paul II

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- - RIP John Paul II (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=8054)

Sorry, I couldn't hear his words over the roaring ego.

Obviously, being in a committee for a third party in one state of one country is WAY more important to the world and it's workings than being the spiritual leader of 1 billion (give or take a few hundred thousand) people.

My bad.

Hey, I wonder which presidents, royalty and world leaders will come to Radar's funeral? Think it will be televised worldwide? Piped over the internet? Who is going to handle the throngs of people trying to catch the merest glimpse of his body?

Obviously the Libertarian Party of California will handle all the media coverage...

does it mean you were influential or not influential if someone vows to piss on your coffin?

well they say if you don't piss off a lot of people you haven't really achieved anything....
Of course that doesn't mean the corollary is true.

In a sense I get radar's position and maybe it could have had some merit if the personal achievements of the bloke weren't so obvious. I mean there's no love lost between myself and the catholic church but I can admire someone for having that level of conviction, overcoming a lot of adversity and having the balls to say exactly what he thinks to the point of endangering his own life.

Let me know when Radar's actions help bring down a latter day berlin wall. Or when the pope opens a hotdog stand.

Or when a pope actually works to support himself, or when he is elected by more than 117 people (as I was), or when a pope opposes communism, socialism, fascism, etc. as much as I do, or when a pope has registered thousands of people to vote, or when a pope as done anything but be a mumbling guy in a funny hat being pranced around for people to worship (idolatry), etc. There may well be world leaders at my funeral. Who knows? Would it make me more important if they did? No. Would it make me a better man? No.

If a billion people saw me as a "spiritual leader" would it make me a better person? Not at all. Would it mean I was more important than a man who works cleaning toilets to feed his family? No.

For the record, the pope didn't do anything to bring down the berlin wall or in any way have an effect on communism.

I think it's laughable that a pathetic moron like Onyx would think it's egotistical to consider myself the equal of the pope. It only shows how clueless someone can be when they're brainwashed.

And if someone wants to piss on your grave, you were obviously influencial. You may not be important, or a good person, but you have influenced someone. A drunken man who beat his children might find someone pissing on his grave. Was he influencial?

I think somebody may be channelling Danzig... :mecry:

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For the record, the pope didn't do anything to bring down the berlin wall or in any way have an effect on communism.

radar, your ignorance is showing. Never attractive in public.
Either that or you're just plain delirious

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or when a pope opposes communism

Yup, delirious it is. John Paul II was virtually defined by his campaign against communism, particularly in Poland. He was personally involved in the first resistance campaigns in Poland in the 70s which in the end acted as the catalyst across eastern europe. As pope he was so totally against communism it's a fairlyopen secret the kremlin was behind the assassination attempt for crying out loud.

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Originally Posted by Radar

I think it's laughable that a pathetic moron like Onyx would think it's egotistical to consider myself the equal of the pope. It only shows how clueless someone can be when they're brainwashed.

For the record, I'm not Catholic, in fact I have alot of problems with Catholic doctrine. I think it's a cheap shot to insult me (and every other Christian in the world by implying all Christians are brainwashed) simply because I think you have ego problems. I'm not the only one who thinks you have ego problems, and some of those aren't Christian.

In addition, if you consider yourself to be on an equal level to the Pope, (which you've stated many times now) then you have to consider me to the on an equal level to you both, in which case, you're a pathetic moron as well. I work for a living too, helping thousands of people a week.

If however, we're not all equal, then your logic is flawed, and you really are just a lonely little pissant with deep psychological issues that tries to make himself feel better by insulting other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

For the record, the pope didn't do anything to bring down the berlin wall or in any way have an effect on communism.

He didn't have an effect in any way on communism? That's a pretty strong statement.

I thought he visited communist Cuba and as a direct result of that visit, athiest Cuba stopped its repression of religion. I'm sure I saw several news sources reporting that as fact. You could argue that Castro gets the credit for that, but it wouldn't have happened without the catalyst of the Pope.

I'm profoundly anti-Catholic (dogma and doctrine, not the followers, of course), and even *I* thought JPII was a fine Pope. If you've absolutely got to have one, he filled the bill nicely.

The Catholics aren't the only ones using religion as a lever to control peoples bodies, for crying out loud...

Well said, Els. I've been trying to think all morning of how to say something similar, that would not offend people (or Radar), and you have hit it on the button. I'm also not a Catholic, and I think that JPII was a very special, and important man, and I will certainly miss him.

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John Paul acted as he thought a pastor should act, rather than according to the venerable script written by the traditional managers of popes. He invited guests to his private Mass and his meals, every day. He visited more of Italy and Rome than any of his Italian predecessors. He held seminars in his summer residence with agnostic and atheist philosophers. His world travels--wearing a tribal headdress in Kenya in 1980, holding a koala bear in Australia in 1986, gathering the largest crowd in human history in Manila in January 1995, improvising a Polish Christmas carol in New York's Central Park nine months later, solemnly commemorating the Holocaust in Jerusalem in 2000--made him the most visible pope in history.

.....

Why did the Pope remain a compelling figure for the young? One reason was his transparent integrity. Young people have acutely sensitive hypocrisy detectors; in John Paul II, they saw a man who believed what he said and acted out his beliefs. There was no "spin" here--only integrity all the way through, the integrity of a man who committed every facet of his life to Jesus Christ. This was immensely compelling.

The Pope was also attractive to the young because he defied the cultural conventions of our age and didn't pander to them. Rather, he challenged them to moral grandeur. While virtually every other authority figure in the world was lowering the bar of moral expectation, John Paul II held it high. You are capable of moral heroism, he told young people. Of course you will fail from time to time; that is human. But don't demean yourself by holding your lives to a lower standard. Get up from your failures, seek forgiveness and reconciliation, try again. That, he insisted, is the path to the fulfillment all young people seek.

And they listened. Not all of them agreed. But they came, in their millions, and listened. There is little doubt that many were changed by the encounter.

....

No Pope since the split between Rome and the Christian East in 1054 did as much to close that first massive breach in the unity of the Church. No Pope since the Reformation spent more time in dialogue with Protestant Christians. No Pope ever asked Orthodox and Protestants leaders and theologians to help him think through an exercise of the papacy that would serve their needs.

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The dialogue with Judaism saw more concrete accomplishments. After John Paul's 1986 visit to the Synagogue of Rome, his repeated condemnations of anti-Semitism, his multiple apologies for centuries of Christian prejudice and persecution of the Jews, and his Jubilee year pilgrimage to Israel, Jews and Catholics stood on the edge of a new conversation, of a depth and range unseen for more than nineteen hundred years. Jewish leaders throughout the world have testified to the fact that John Paul II has been the best Pope for Jews ever.

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He was a Pope of many surprises. French journalist André Frossard understood that when, shortly after John Paul's election, he wired his French newspaper, "This is not a Pope from Poland. This is a Pope from Galilee." And that, in retrospect, was the greatest surprise of all.

source: beliefnet

I dunno maybe it's the polish heritage speaking, but I liked the guy although (of course) I disagree with a number of things he stood for, then again.. we all agree to diasagree, that's the beautiful part (well I agree to disagree anyway :) )

I heard a statement on one of the news channels today that JP II supplied the CIA with most of the reliable information they got on the goings on behind the iron curtain. He not only passed the info personally, he understood which info was important and why. Impressive. :mg:

Maybe we shoulda asked him about WMD.

Oh, and thanks for setting up the next post. :)

The next pope will be the second to last one.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp