this:

By that idea we should go back to the prehestoric ages and go hunt wild animals for food...cause thats natural...

A lot of people would die a lot sooner.Almost nothing you or I do during the day would ordinarily occur without science.

if we could keep this within the context of what we are talking about, it makes much more sense.

im not saying we should remain cave men, or to shun science.....i'm saying when it comes to reproduction.....maybe there is a reason why it's not working.

don't pick fly shit out of pepper

And what's the reason it's not working?

Mother nature? GOD?!

Can you be any more supersticious please?

Shit maybe it's the computer radiation...gah

It's the same argument, whether you're talking about reproduction or airplanes. Maybe there's a reason man doesn't fly. Maybe the reason reproduction isn't working is a low Ph level in the womb that can be fixed with drugs.

"Maybe there's a reason it doesn't happen already" isn't a reason not to do it if you can.

im saying that i don't know the reason......and i wouldnt push past a simple cure with advanced medicinal regimens and surgery -esque in vitro or test tube babies......

......maybe You've had too much radiation.......

i am as unsuperstitious as they come.....i don't believe in "GOD" in a conventional sense......i do, however beleive that nature should not be trifled with lightly.

What is nature?


Things happening randomly.

Thats it.

Whats wrong with adding some order to it?

You sure sound supersticious to me. "Mess with nature and bad things might happen!"

bad things like overpopulation, excessive health care costs for the masses, and 2 hour tv specials about sextuplets? yeah, you got me...i'm superstitious.

Natural selection?
Seriously though, I couldn't give a fuck if people get a little help having kids. I have to wonder why so many people need it these days though.

The thing that has jims knickers in a twist about our friends and their infertility is that they are fucking up our vacation plans with it. Lemme flesh the story out a bit... They've been trying for over a year now. In October they agreed to rent a vacation house with us next sept. Agreed to the dates, approved the house, gave the go ahead. NOW (after I've signed a lease and paid half the bill) they're saying that becuase of the fertility drugs they want her to try, they might get pg in the next few months and then they won't go - but if they don't (get pg) they will (go).
To me, the issue isn't about fucking with nature so much as it is being an asshole.

Overpopulation isn't a result of technology.

It's a result of retards going out and "saving" the fucktards who breed but can't feed themselves.

It's the care bear mentality of the world that is the problem.

I say let the retards in India and Africa who breed all day long die. Let the 6 kids of the crack addict single mother die. All the technology in the world cannot save people from their own stupidity.


Care bears are the problem. Not technology.

Well, we can come up with many, many reasons why using advanced medicine and science is good for the human race, even in reproduction. How many reasons can you think of why using the same is bad? Actual, concrete reasons... not just a "gut feeling."

The only negative repercussions I can think of to medicine's help in reproduction are pretty managable:

1) Risk of sextuplets... this is a low risk, which the parents are aware of and prepared for.
2) "They could have adopted." Adopting is great if you want a kid to raise. But if you want YOUR kid, and the survival of the genes, medicine's answer is better.
3) Overpopulation... this problem would not be solved by failing to help couples conceive. Realistically, the areas where this sort of thing is offered are NOT overpopulated.

And what's wrong with "playing God" in this way, and helping nature along? Basically, there are two possibilities:

A) There IS a God(s), and (T)He(y) gave us the knowledge and means to do all this.
B) There is NO God(s), and mankind is the maker if i's own destiny.

One argument that would perhaps have merit is Darwinian... that one member of the couple has a genetic deficiency in reproduction, and should therefore not reproduce. But modern medicine fills that gap, so technically a couple with the means to pay for reproductive therapy satisfies the Darwinian equation..

i beg to differ.

if we didn't have the technology required to build shelters, farm, heal the sick, etc....people would die a lot more often and sooner.....hence, a "natural" population balance...

look at how long the native americans and aborigonal aussies existed in harmony with the land before whitey brought technology into the picture.

very well put, alan.....

this is an argument that i can respect.....as opposed to the last few......

as i said, i wouldn't push someone in either direction....i was merely looking for peoples opinions on the matter.

nice job.....

Yes and neither the native americans or the aborigines suffere from over population.

Over population is a problem in 3rd world countries...

These countries lack the technology to fully support a large population.

Instead these countries get help in barley keeping the large population alive from the more technologicaly advanced countries.

This is because US and other send money to poor countries; because "You can't just let these people die!". This is a care bear mentality. This is the problem.

Countries like India or Africa MUST develop the technology themselves. Till then their population MUST starve and die out.