HEY!!!

Just because one is a pagan, it does not necessarily follow that one is also necessarily a hedonist!

What about pagan asceticism ... :p

     Wolf, forget it. If he's into Kant and you're discussing religion it goes into morals. Since morals guide logic but not the other way around, You're wrong. Why are you wrong you ask? Because. That is the correct answer and no more of this shall be discussed.

     Perth, yeah, I'd agree with the interpretational problem. By the by, the first thing I did when faith was mentioned was look it up in my "Big Honkin' Dictionary" (Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language) just to be on the safe side. You were also upfront from the beginning about having a little different "concept" of the word. I'm still curios about the way you tend to link faith and good. It sounds almost Narnian, Seems like I remember the Lion saying something about all good is done in his name even if it's the other guys name that is invoked. Something along those lines?

     Um, God? Aren't you listening? I asked a question... Oh, wait. I forgot. It's heresy to question God. My bad, so sorry.

     Dave, my apologies if I suggested it wasn't true. I was merely suggesting that as a possible basis for Juju's statement.

mmmm, i dont think so. the concept of good and the concept o faith are not necessarily inclusive. they *can* go together and often do, but one does not need the other to exist.

its been years since ive read anything narnia. i might have to pick up a copy and reread it, especially if im reminding you of it.

~james

Nut crushing is optional. He's important to modern philosophy and religion not because of his conclusions (don't worry, I'm not going to trace the "moral absolutism" argument), but because he defines the terms and sets the grid for pretty much every modern (western) foray into the discussion that doesn't devolve into post-modern gibberish.

-sm

     To perth. Hmm, in your earlier posts there was definitely a link between good and faith. Juju even razzed you about it. So, I'm not really sure what's up. I actually had faith when I was young, back when I was being raised to believe in God. So I have a concept floating in my head and it seems to fit the book definition. I just don't know where you are. The Narnian thing was just a shot in the dark, an attempt to reconcile all your statements into something I could clearly understand. In the end it seems to me that faith to you is more of an undefined feeling, almost an instinct. You feel a link between your desire to do good and what faith is to you, so you assume that's how we all work. Um... Yeah, it's not... People are way to diverse for emotions that work all the same. Which is why my question of why you should have faith never quite got answered. Something on that basic a level would really be hard to explain. So, am I on to something? You tell me, I don't know how your mind works.

     Smooth, ok... I'll take your word on not going into Kant's moral thing. I await your thread. Also, if you prove God's existence can you get him to let me do the thing with the money and the fish?

im not seeing where i said that. i do see where i used some examples, and i probably should have used broader examples to avoid this sort of thing. my bad. my point was not to link faith to goodness, i should have also used examples like faith in money, drugs and yes, even porn. i did notice this tho:
so im going all contradictory, just like the bible! but the thing is, i meant it each time i wrote it. so its a work in progress. the thing is, im not really sure i totally understand my beliefs yet myself. up until just over a year ago, i was convinced that religion was a crock and that the church was a racket. not sure what changed, i still feel the same way about church.

okay, this is why my view of faith is different from traditional definition. a 'righteous christian' once told me that gandhi would burn in hell for eternity because he wasnt a christian. i cannot reject christianity outright, but i also cannot reconcile that to my beliefs. i refuse to believe that millions of good people go to hell simply because their beliefs dont line up with mine. so i reconciled it. it may be a half-baked and not completely developed belief, but i prefer it to the alternative.

~james

     This is where we get the link between faith and doing good. Trying to good is what's important, good enough to count as faith.

     I think it's cool that you're willing to admit to contradictory statements instead of BSing out of them. It's a quality that's rare in people, even in a coffee shop with no coffee, and no shop, that I've been to a few times...
     Good luck with finding the beliefs that make you happy, as long as you're not hurting anyone else I'm all for it. And hey, share some of us might like some or all of it.
     Thanks for questioning me, I figure if you're not ready to have the belief challenged you don't really believe it. That's why all my christian friends have an open invite to try to make me believe. Of course some of them have had hurt feelings when they failed, but I've never tried to make one of them not believe, so we get by.
     Anyway, if you ever come up with a concise answer to my original question:
Let me know, I'm always ready to listen

     One last thing for the road.
     See we were on topic the whole time! You people just thought we'd strayed.

post 666! i thought it would go nicely in this thread.
okay. i see it too. watch me backpedal:

goodness does not require faith.

im still not sure whether faith requires goodness, because that contradicts some other things i think. the big issue here is that i need to go to work defining faith a bit more solidly.
thank you. i appreciate you being cool about it too. i dont mind admitting when im wrong, faith requires humility (its a joke! not a funny one, but still a joke).

~james