We have to ask ourselves, would the Cellar survive without UT?

no

:grouphug::ipray::unsure::question:

Ergo, we are a cult.


Hey UT, your serene divinity, when was the last time someone logically proved that you are highly charismatic? :D

Why is it that that was my first question as well... gee whiz I'm a cultist!

You've been cultivated.

:borg:

:grouphug:

Gravdigr,

I apologize for my harsh answer to your original question.

I'd put together another long answer, then the computer ate it. Here is the condensed version.

Our laws about the requirements for citizenship say nothing about a religious requirement. Furthermore, the first amendment to the Constitution specifically prohibits the creation of such laws in such circumstances.
There certainly *are* requirements for citizenship, and some restrictions, but none of them have anything to do with religion, much less Islam. You can be a citizen regardless of your religion.

That's the citizenship side of your question.

Islam has many followers, and like most religions, has many interpreters of the "rules". I am less familiar with the wider range of definitions of what it means to be a "devout muslim" than I am with the "rules" for citizenship. But I will tell you that I have a number of friends who are muslim. American citizens, by the way. I've been around them for a long time. Nothing I've ever heard or seen from any of them has ever given me any indication that there was a conflict between their religion and their citizenship. Nothing I've read about Islam has ever given me any indication that there's any conflict between Islam and citizenship, certainly not American citizenship.

Having listened to the idiot in the firearms ad, and the other idiot at the website, they both talk about why someone can't be a citizen, and they say the reason being a "devout muslim". I *know* this is wrong because I have a good understanding of the requirements for citizenship; those requirements are explicit and well defined and widely accepted, especially by those who confer citizenship. What the two idiots seem to be saying is that if you're an American citizen, you can't be a "devout muslim". Maybe they know about being a "devout muslim" and where in the Koran is says you can't be a citizen, but I doubt it.

These guys are talking out of their asses.

If this place lived off my charisma it would surely be vacant...!

fortunately, your modesty sustains us as well.

Grav, I do get the original question, but the answer lies in bigotry and ignorance (genuine and assumed).
There are many many things you can read about Islam which might suggest a Muslim could not live in a country with democratic ideals.

But their holy book - like those of Judaism and Christianity - was written in a time when democracy did not count. The opinion of the vast majority of the men in the country meant nothing. And women and slaves were owned heart and soul by their Master, as were their offspring, regardless of whether his opinion counted in the wider world or not.

Mohammed was surprisingly enlightened for his time, more so than some Mormons in the last 100 years. But there are words and attitudes adhered to by some of his followers than can be condemned by today's standards.

Practices are open to interpretation.
Words can be twisted.

If you ask me what a generic American might regard as an problem with Islam I would suggest some of the more warlike passages of the Koran, conversion of non-Muslims with death to those who resist, suppression of women, homophobia and the rules laid down about pilgrimage to a foreign land.

These are perceptions. Some correct (and true in all three of the Abrahamic religions). Some taken out of context or only observed by fundamentalists. Some true but not really a problem. You are an intelligent man and you've admitted that you're not predisposed to bias in this case. I hope this reply helps.

BigV, your apology was unnecessary (but' I'll take it, & save it for a rainy day). I knew there would be an explanation/more info forthcoming from you, you don't usually spout without splaining.

I do appreciate everyone's input.

The "American Citizen" part I get. Born here, lived here 43 years.

The "Devout Muslim" part, I obviously need to study on.

I know that every Muslim on the planet is not out to get America. Yes, I get the idea of 'extremism', and that there are extremists in every religion. Those Amish hair attacks? Amish Extremists. And I know of more than one church group that could be boiled down to Baptist Extremists.

Are Muslims the new Communists?

Is Islam replacing global warming?

Am I beginning to sound like Pensive Pam & JB Klyde's love child?

Quick Shoot it shoot it NOWWWWWWWWWW

Lamp, it would surprise me, in view of this, to discover you have ever been raped. And what do you mean by the mix of pronouns?

Well, I thought it was fucking funny. Reminded me of some of Jimmy Carr's material. The context of the joke is rape, but the actual humour comes from the word play.

You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.