The Cellar
Page 3 of 12 12 3 45678910 Last »
Show 60 post(s) from this thread on one page

The Cellar (http://cellar.org/index.php)
-   Current Events (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Fast and Furious (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=25379)

Fair&Balanced 07-08-2011 05:39 PM
Despite the relative success of Operation Gun Runner (as noted in the above) and despite the reckless and serious flawed Operation Fast and Furious, here is the problem that still exists, in the words of ATF officials:
Quote:
Special Agent Peter Forcelli, a senior ATF group supervisor in the Phoenix Field Division, stated that the typical sentence for illegal straw purchases is probation. He also stated that suspects have little incentive to cooperate with investigators or “flip” on higher-level cartel members...

Special Agent Forcelli testified that existing laws were “toothless.” He added: “Some people view this as no more consequential than doing 65 in a 55.” He added: “for somebody to testify against members of a cartel where the alternative is seeing a probation officer once a month, they’re going to opt toward, you know, not cooperating with the law enforcement authorities.”

Special Agent Lee Casa, an ATF field agent with over 20 years of experience, stated that the current practice of charging straw purchases for merely lying on purchase forms was ineffective: “I would say generally speaking there is not a lot of bite in the 924(a)(1)(A) statute as far as penalties and time, time that would be served.”

Multiple law enforcement agents who appeared before the Committee stated that their efforts to combat international drug cartels would be strengthened through the enactment of a federal statute specifically designed to criminalize the trafficking of firearms. Currently, there is no federal statute that specifically prohibits firearms trafficking. Instead, prosecutors attempt to charge traffickers with “paperwork violations,” such as dealing in firearms without a license.

Special Agent Casa reiterated this view during his transcribed interview. He stated: “There is really no trafficking, firearms trafficking statute, per se. It would be nice to have a trafficking statute per se or to enhance some of the penalties on even, on the straw purchasers, just to be a deterrent effect … so we can really hammer these people and just put them in jail.”

During the Committee’s hearing on June 15, Chairman Issa interrupted Committee Members who were asking questions of the law enforcement agents that he invited to testify. In particular, Chairman Issa objected to any questions about whether the nation’s gun laws could be improved to assist these law enforcement agents in their efforts to counter drug violence and firearms trafficking by Mexican drug cartels.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-s...ort_063011.pdf
Like Issa, Mercenary evidently has no interest in having the investigation examine the gun trafficking problem in a manner that night result in actions that could be more effective in stopping the flow of guns across the border.

TheMercenary 07-14-2011 06:25 AM
Tell it to the ATF agents that supplied the guns to the Mexican drug lords and the family of the agent killed by one of the guns supplied in their illegal operation.

Happy Monkey 07-14-2011 10:22 AM
Likewise gun show dealers in Virginia and murder victims in DC?

Fair&Balanced 07-14-2011 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744556)
Tell it to the ATF agents that supplied the guns to the Mexican drug lords and the family of the agent killed by one of the guns supplied in their illegal operation.
So the ATF agents who are concerned about the broader issue of legal straw purchases at guns shows and gun dealers dont matter.

And the deaths of innocent civilians and border agends as a result of the thousands of straw purchases every year that make their way to the drug cartels dont matter.

Evidently one death matters to you....so you can pin it on the ATF and DoJ. How very convenient and political.

So does that make you a shill for the NRA and their Republican puppets in Congress? You know the ones that have blocked a permanent appointment of a director of ATF for five years now and block every attempt to even explore the need for gun trafficking legislation.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744585)
So the ATF agents who are concerned about the broader issue of legal straw purchases at guns shows and gun dealers dont matter.

And the deaths of innocent civilians and border agends as a result of the thousands of straw purchases every year that make their way to the drug cartels dont matter.

Evidently one death matters to you....so you can pin it on the ATF and DoJ. How very convenient and political.

So does that make you a shill for the NRA and their Republican puppets in Congress? You know the ones that have blocked a permanent appointment of a director of ATF for five years now and block every attempt to even explore the need for gun trafficking legislation.
No what matters is the ATF committed crimes and broke the law while sending thousands of guns across the border to Mexico and fueling the deaths of most likely thousands of people not a mile from some of our major cities. You can spin this all you want. That fuck Holder and the head of ATF should be held responsible. I didn't "pin" anything on anyone, the ATF agents that are coming to the forefront to testify are the one's spilling the beans and the Congressional investigation and documents they have obtained support it. The ATF and Justice are stonewalling.

How many gun shows have you been to? There is no evidence that gun shows are a problem. That is propaganda. There are hundreds of gun shows every weekend all across the US.

Stop shilling for the Demoncrats and go back to being a paid lobbyist.

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744702)
No what matters is the ATF committed crimes and broke the law while sending thousands of guns across the border to Mexico and fueling the deaths of most likely thousands of people not a mile from some of our major cities. You can spin this all you want. That fuck Holder and the head of ATF should be held responsible. I didn't "pin" anything on anyone, the ATF agents that are coming to the forefront to testify are the one's spilling the beans and the Congressional investigation and documents they have obtained support it. The ATF and Justice are stonewalling.

How many gun shows have you been to? There is no evidence that gun shows are a problem. That is propaganda. There are hundreds of gun shows every weekend all across the US.

Stop shilling for the Demoncrats and go back to being a paid lobbyist.
Twist it anyway you want, dude. Nothing I havent seen you do in most discussions. Just ignore what you dont like to hear.

The propaganda? Like the bullshit about the secret US and UN plans you shared with us claiming a treaty on arms trafficking will take away your Second Amendment rights.

The propaganda machine is the NRA and their lackeys in Congress who created the environment of gun trafficking by blocking every attempt to address it.

But keep spewing the NRA rhetoric and your personal "Holder is a criminal" bullshit. It simply reinforces what an extremist you are.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744729)
It simply reinforces what an extremist you are.
"Hi Kettle!" :lol2:

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 04:26 PM
Like most issues, you clearly dont want to discuss it in a reasonable and rational manner. Again, no surprise there.

This is just another Mercenary rant. Crying wolf again and again about Holder breaking the law (three times!) when the facts clearly dont support your wild and partisan claims.

Or crying wolf about Obama, Holder, the Democrats and the UN all in a secret plot to get your guns. :eek:

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744802)
Like most issues, you clearly dont want to discuss it in a reasonable and rational manner. Again, no surprise there.
Not with you, you are nothing more than a shill for all things Obama and Demoncrat. Not worth my time. And just like when you ran off with your Redux persona, I still think Pelosi is a cunt.:D

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 744803)
Not with you, you are nothing more than a shill for all things Obama and Demoncrat. Not worth my time. And just like when you ran off with your Redux persona, I still think Pelosi is a cunt.:D
Still on this redux delusion, huh?

Avoiding the facts anyway you can in typical Mercenary fashion.

Have fun.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744804)
Have fun.
Oh I am having great fun. Bye.

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:46 PM
Great article from PBS on Fast and Furious.

Quote:
Revelations about a U.S. sting program that backfired has provoked new anger in Mexico, where lawmakers and citizens already are upset about the flow of American weapons to Mexican drug gangs.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has been criticized for "Operation Fast and Furious" in 2009, in which it let people purchase weapons it knew would end up in criminals' hands in the United States and Mexico in order to track them and build a case against them.

Two AK-47 rifles connected to the program were found at the scene of the killing of a border agent in Arizona in December. The U.S. House held hearings on the matter in June, where witnesses questioned the reasoning behind the sting since it is difficult for the United States to prosecute criminals in Mexico.
continues:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...d-furious.html

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 04:49 PM
Can you believe this fool Holder on anything he says... I don't.

Quote:
The Justice Department’s effort to contain the Operation Fast and Furious gunrunning scandal is crumbling. Members of Congress are demanding full disclosure regarding the bizarre scheme to funnel guns to Mexican drug cartels, supposedly to help sniff out the higher-level bad guys. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. isn’t helping congressional investigators understand the rationale behind this breathtakingly dumb idea.

The so-called Fast and Furious program fit right in with the White House contention that gun shops in the Southwest have been contributing to violence in Mexico. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), part of the Justice Department, started the operation as a sting to arrest purchasers in border states who purportedly were engaging in illegal cross-border arms trafficking. The scheme spun out of control, and the agency reportedly wound up telling gun dealers to proceed with sales even after dealers had raised red flags about certain buyers. In this way, the ATF may have become an accomplice to the smuggling of some 1,700 weapons into Mexico, allegedly leading to the death of U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry near Nogales, Ariz., in December 2010. Two Fast and Furious weapons were discovered at that crime scene, and other such weapons have been found after the deaths of untold numbers of Mexican citizens.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...t-too-furious/

TheMercenary 07-15-2011 06:00 PM
Well, this may go higher than previously thought....

Quote:
The video shows Deputy Attorney General David Ogden, who would resign nine months later after less than a year's service, telling reporters at a Department of Justice briefing of major policy initiatives to fight the Mexican drug cartels.

"The president has directed us to take action to fight these cartels," Ogden begins, "and Attorney General Holder and I are taking several new and aggressive steps as part of the administration's comprehensive plan."

At the president's direction, Ogden said, the administration's plan included DOJ's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives "increasing its efforts by adding 37 new employees in three new offices, using $10 million in Recovery Act funds and redeploying 100 personnel to the Southwest border in the next 45 days to fortify its Project Gunrunner," of which Operation Fast and Furious would be a part.

As we have noted, Attorney General Eric Holder himself gave a speech to Mexican authorities in Cuernavaca, Mexico, on April 2, 2009, taking credit for Gunrunner as well as Fast and Furious for himself and the Obama administration.

Holder told the audience: "Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner."

Listen to the Podcast
Subscribe through iTunes
The administration's animus towards private gun ownership and the Second Amendment surfaced during the 2008 campaign, when President Obama spoke of bitter Pennsylvania townsfolk clinging to their guns. The Chicago Tribune noted that candidate Obama thought the District of Columbia's total gun ban was constitutional, an opinion with which the U.S. Supreme Court disagreed in its Heller decision.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...For-Obama-.htm

Fair&Balanced 07-15-2011 07:52 PM
So the latest twist is the fact that Obama increased funding for Operation Gunrunner, the anti-trafficking program started by Bush is somehow scandalous? Shame on Obama!

And a speech that Holder made in April of 09 is taking credit for Operation Fast and Furious which didnt begin until later that year?

Now that is a stretch only a true wing nut could believe.

And more paranoia about taking away the guns from law abiding citizens. :tinfoil:


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 PM.
Page 3 of 12 12 3 45678910 Last »
Show 60 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.