I think the legislative records of most liberals would show that they are closer to the mainstream than to the alleged position you ascribe to them. In fact, their "legislative point of view" being that reasonable restrictions, like those in the Brady Law, are not an infringement of Second Amendment rights and that Second Amendment rights are not absolute, a position that has been affirmed by the Supreme Court on several occasions, most recently by the current conservative court.

There are extremists on the far left who would go further than those reasonable and legal restrictions just as there are extremists on the right who would ignore the First Amendment establishment clause.

But sweeping generalizations about liberals or conservatives are just another example of extremism at work and cant be supported by the facts.

These are not sweeping generalizations. It is observation of objective voting data based on party affiliation. You can find the data at both the NRA and Gun Owners of America websites if you care to look. This has nothing to do with the First Amendment only the Second. Again, the "Sweeping generalizations about liberals" and Second Amendment Rights are fact, not extremism, no matter how you or your alter-ego cowardly incarnation wants to make it.

UG--by your statements you have identified yourself time and time again as an extremist on the right, to borrow F&B's terminology. As such, I'm unable to have a regular conversation with you on subjects such as these. Please note, it is your extremism, not your ideology that makes mutual understanding impossible. You have proven yourself deaf to normal tones of voice.

For example, in matters of my own opinion, such as my esteem for the second amendment, *I* know better than you do. Yet, despite evidence that you've read my clear statement, you disbelieve me. Then, with the most insulting and prejudicial language you challenge me to "convince you" or shut the fuck up. Well, buddy, you can stop listening to me anytime now, that's as close to shutting up you'll ever be able to impose upon me.

I have neither the desire, nor the interest, nor the ability to change your mind. It is closed, nothing new can enter it. Your belief is not a measure of the truth of anything.

As for my point, F&B absolutely got it. Generalizations are useful in proportion to their specificity. Ideas small enough to fit on a bumper sticker are usually not big enough to build a bridge of understanding.

"Liberals hate the second amendment" is a sweeping generalization.

Sweeping generalizations are useless as a means of understanding.

Persisting in the use of sweeping generalizations is to avoid attempting to understand.

I can not, and will not attempt to reach understanding with anyone who would avoid that shared effort.

As long as you believe I hate the second amendment, we have nothing to talk about. I will leave you in peace and ignorance.

As I stated, these are not sweeping generalizations, but an observation of objective voting data based on party affiliation.

Can you point to voting data where most liberals in Congress voted to ban the personal possession of firearms?

Or are you suggesting that anyone who voted for the Brady Act or even the assault weapon ban legislation, both of which have never challenged as unconstitutional, hates the Second Amendment?

Sweeping generalizations about liberals or conservatives based on a rigid and narrow position of an advocacy group (NRA), a position not supported by federal judiciary, are just another example of extremism at work and cant be supported by the facts.

The web is filled with the congressional voting records, look them up.

The Brady Bill was passed during an overwhelmingly majority of Liberal Dems in Congress, it was nothing more than an ugly gun ban. It was a complete failure and thankfully overturned.

The Brady bill simply requires background checks, waiting periods, etc. with overwhelming public support. Hardly an ugly gun ban.

I misses that it was overturned. Please cite.

if you are claiming that a majority of liberals in Congress have voted to ban the possession of firearms by lawful citizens, please cite that as well.

Looks like Obama is a big supporter of gun rights and the Second Amendment,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_836138.html

Pretty well footnoted:

FACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.17

FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate “assault weapons,” but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.18

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1

FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.2

FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people
who use firearms in self-defense.5

FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6

FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.

FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7

FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.”8

FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9

FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10

FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11

FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2

FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14

FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9

1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00219)

2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in “Obama had greater role on liberal survey,” Politico, March 31, 2008. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9269.html)

3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00217)

4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: `Common Sense Regulation` On Gun Owners` Rights," ABC News` "Political Radar" Blog, http://blogs.abcnews.com, 2/15/08. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalra...common-se.html)

5. Illinois Senate, SB 2165, March 25, 2004, vote 20 and May 25, 2004, vote 3.

6. “Fact Check: No News In Obama`s Consistent Record.” Obama ’08, December 11, 2007. (http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...n_obamas_c.php)

7. “Candidates` gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_560181.html)

8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.

9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.com/posts/1203389334.shtml)

10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.

11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2004, SB 2163, vote 18.

12. “Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control,” Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. (http://learfield.typepad.com/radioio...n_edwards.html)

13. Chicago Tribune blogs, “Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action,” February 15, 2008, (http://blogs.trb.com/news/politics/b..._on_shoot.html)

14. Barack Obama campaign website: “As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . .” (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ur...aw-enforcement.)

15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm and http://www.ontheissues.org/IL_2004_Senate_3rd.htm) Oct 21, 2004.

16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.

17. United States Senate vote 245, September 29, 2005 and vote 2, January 31, 2006 and Saddleback Forum, August 16, 2008.

18. Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, March 13, 2003. To see the vote tally go to: http://www.nrapvf.org/Media/pdf/sb1195_obama.pdf.

Wait. has Obama ever voted for a federal law that would ban the personal possession of firearms by lawful citizens.

Nope.

The fact is that the NRA doesnt like the Brady Law (which, bwt, was never overturned and has widespread support well beyond the far left), so if you support the Brady Law, then according to the NRA and you, you hate the Second Amendment.

Supporting a background check is hating the Second Amendment?

A bit of stretch, dont you think?

[quote=Fair&Balanced;724335]The Brady bill simply requires background checks, waiting periods, etc. with overwhelming public support. Hardly an ugly gun ban. What they have done is to vote to restrict the full rights of the Second Amendment by chipping away at the elements of the Amendment.

http://capwiz.com/gunowners/issues/votes/

Nice try. He can't get it passed and he knows it. So they use other means to make guns un-obtainable. You deny this?

It's not about the NRA or background checks, which most people have come to accept and I support. But that does not imply support for the Brady Bill.

You need to do more research.

I am still trying to understand how the Brady background check, which is the guts of the bill, means hating the Second Amendment.

What part of the law dont you like or implies hating the Second Amendment?

This from one who said it was overturned?

One section was overturned, requiring the states to do the background checks (on 10th amendment grounds, not Second Amendment) and which became irrelevant a year later when the NICS was implemented.