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-   Home Base (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   This is MY America! (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=14341)

piercehawkeye45 05-31-2007 09:31 AM
Yes, I will definitely read it this summer. Thank you a lot, it sounds very interesting.

jinx 05-31-2007 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 349078)
The 10 to 20 million people living in an advanced, complex North American society before the "settlers" arrived to "tame the wilderness" ...
But they weren't the first, so why do they have any more right to claim this land than the european settlers? Your argument is not about who was first, just who was here before the british???

rkzenrage 05-31-2007 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 348703)
Who can truly say this?

The original Americans were obviously Native Americans. Next, the Spanish arrived with African slaves. The slaves revolted and the Spanish left. The Africans stayed, making them the first non-native Americans. Next, the Spanish came back to stay, making them the second non-native Americans. Spanish and Native peoples mixed, making Hispanic peoples the third non-native Americans. Next, the Dutch made settlements here, as the fourth non-native Americans. Many years later, the British came and established settlements, as the fifth non-native Americans.

If you want to get technical, the Native-Americans (and to a lesser degree: Africans, Spanish, Hispanic, Dutch) should be the ones asking whether British descendants should be allowed to stay and work here. It's especially ridiculous to people living in Texas, which is technically a part of Mexico.

History is written by the victors; and revisionist history by the victors descendants. Eurocentricism is so pervasive, it's transparent.
None of that has any bearing on our current law enforcement problem.
Pilgrims were naughty, some of my ancestors owned slaves, some were slaves, some killed natives, some were natives bad things happened a long time ago... am I supposed to feel bad about it? Why?
I don't own anyone anything for the past, no one does.

Flint 05-31-2007 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 349078)
The 10 to 20 million people living in an advanced, complex North American society before the "settlers" arrived to "tame the wilderness" ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx (Post 349272)
But they weren't the first, so why do they have any more right to claim this land than the european settlers? Your argument is not about who was first, just who was here before the british???
The Native Americans weren't here first??? Be it 12K, 19K, or as much as 40+K years ago; via land voyage across the Bering Strait, or skipping along the extreme Northern coastline in small boat voyages, people got here somehow. They were here, and well-established in a complex, advanced culture of 10s of millions (as opposed to a nomadic scattering of primitive savages) when the Europeans began to arrive circa 1500.

It's not "my argument" - it's what happened. I mention the British specifically because they mark the beginning of the "creation myth" of America.

Flint 05-31-2007 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 349275)
... am I supposed to feel bad about it? Why? I don't own anyone anything for the past, no one does.
No. I didn't say you should feel bad, or that you owe anybody anything. Read the thread. I'm talking about how historical myths are taught as fact.

rkzenrage 05-31-2007 03:48 PM
Fine. As long as you are not trying to connect it to illegal immigration in any way. I was under the impression you were, perhaps I was mistaken.

Flint 05-31-2007 03:55 PM
That was the shit-magnet aspect of it. Sorry, I've got some hand sanitizer for guests.

jinx 05-31-2007 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 349289)
The Native Americans weren't here first??? Be it 12K, 19K, or as much as 40+K years ago; via land voyage across the Bering Strait, or skipping along the extreme Northern coastline in small boat voyages, people got here somehow.
So, no matter where they came from or how they got here - they were all Native Americans, right up to and excluding the european settlers?

Flint 05-31-2007 05:40 PM
Yes, that's what Native American means.

rkzenrage 05-31-2007 05:58 PM
I was born here.

bluecuracao 05-31-2007 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 349292)
Fine. As long as you are not trying to connect it to illegal immigration in any way.
So what if he is? It's worth discussion.

Indigenous people have migrated back and forth for millennia, long before and even while Europeans and their descendents came in and started establishing and moving around the borders. That's kind of what's still happening with the migrant workers; but because of the restrictions put in place in the 90s, it became too difficult to go back and forth. So now a lot of them stay, and have become part of the undocumented immigrant population in the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint
They were here, and well-established in a complex, advanced culture of 10s of millions
That's the low end of the estimate; other estimates put the population at more than 100 million, pre-Columbian and pre-disease epidemics.

piercehawkeye45 05-31-2007 06:40 PM
I would think it was closer to the 100 millions, the Americas weren't empty when we came and there is a lot of land.

Sad that the worst holocaust of all time goes so unnoticed and no one seems to give any second thought...

jinx 05-31-2007 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 349319)
Yes, that's what Native American means.
But at first you said it meant only the people who came across the bering straight - now you're saying that people from africa, spain, netherlands etc... who got got here prior to the brits are all NA's. I guess I just don't understand your line in the sand. What exactly were you taught in school that you're refuting?

Flint 05-31-2007 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx (Post 349334)
...now you're saying that people from africa, spain, netherlands etc... who got got here prior to the brits are all NA's. I guess I just don't understand your line in the sand.
No, I'm not saying that. You're confused about what "European" means. Spanish, French, and Dutch people are Europeans. The Africans were slaves of, and thus came with the Europeans. The millions of people who had already had an established civilization here were Native Americans.

jinx 05-31-2007 07:04 PM
Then why do you say this;
Quote:
If you want to get technical, the Native-Americans (and to a lesser degree: Africans, Spanish, Hispanic, Dutch) should be the ones asking whether British descendants should be allowed to stay and work here.
Why do you accept that many different peoples came here different ways at different times (yet call them all one thing) but have an issue with the brit colonists?


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