Anybody read Tancredo's NRO piece?

Here is an excerpt (I snipped some, cuz that's how I roll):

:driving: readysetFLAME

What's it to you? I was talking to Bruce. You're not up to it.

Gee, I guess forgot you owned the thread. The only ones who are allowed to speak are the ones who buy into your bogus propositions and straw men.

So, if we removed all natural and naturalized citizens, child molestation cases would drop by 66% and auto theft by 60%!

And imagine the benefits of removing children and cars.
Of course, the children and cars are here legallly.

So are the citizens...who represent a bit more than 66% of the total population.

At this time, anyway...

Nope, not a duck. I'm sure you didn't get the answer you hoped for because you feel anyone that's against these illegals is basing it on personal animosity.
That's the way I feel. My position is NOT about personal animosity I handle personal afronts,....personally. It's about enforcing the fucking law. Simple as that.:cool:

Ok, well I am going to copy a post i did somewhere else for the benefit of those reading this thread that haven't seen it before, and maybe this will help people from New Zealand or who are lacking an understanding on illegal immigration...





Actually I would tend to think that letting people cross our borders unchecked, not knowing what their intentions are or what their purpose for being her is, would qualify as a security issue. So it should not be just a mild concern for you.

I'm in no way trying to say that every person who is here illegally are bad people. I understand that many work for next to nothing, doing jobs that even I wouldn't want to do. I know that many just want to work and be left alone. So understand that before anyone tries to make it seem like I am anti-immigrant, because I am not.

All you need to do to understand this is just break it down to its simplest, factual components. Take out the emotional arguments about how you think they deserve equal treatment as legal citizens because they are people too, that they just want to work or whatever. Just know that:

1) The law very explicitly lays out a process which one must follow in order to immigrate and become a U.S. citizen.
2) Forget that idea that, "Oh, well this law isn't as serious as laws against violent crimes and crimes against property." The law is the law, and it must be enforced equally and absolutely. Understandably, the complexity and cost of doing this completely is beyond our capabilities, but it must be done to the full extent possible under the law.
3) If you are not happy with the law as it currently is, understand that there is indeed a process in which laws may be changed. Until which time the law is changed, it should be enforced as is. Remember the civil rights era? Black leaders during that time believed that it was counterproductive to break the law to attain their goals, so instead, they used existing laws to bring about change. In principal, this is no different with immigration.
4) For those of you who think that everyone, no matter who they are, where they are from, or how they got here, that they get the same treatment afforded to a U.S. citizen, or that it is the duty of the U.S. to welcome them here, know that the U.S. Constitution is our supreme law, affording protections and powers and responsibilities of the government, and that above all else, the Constitution must be followed. I quote, from the Constitution:


Quote:

This was written for citizens of the United States, and it governs citizens of the United States and protects first and foremost, citizens of the United States, and it is the duty of the government to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity", not citizens of other countries. If they want the same benefits as a U.S. citizen, all they have to do is follow the law to come here legally.

The facts are simple and straightforward. To argue the facts is just ignorance. Now even though the facts are simple, the solution is not. Emotions get involved, rhetoric gets thrown around, and people just become confused. Also the problem with illegal immigrants isn't just at the border, but people overstaying their visas. These things make it even more complicated to find a suitable solution, which is why we must remain vigilant and continue to enforce our laws while reforming the system to make it work better.


______________________________________________________

Ok so now I know someone will probably come back on it and say, well that whole arguement lacks any numbers to back anything that I say up. Well before someone tries to say something like that, I'm saying that this was not a numbers arguement where I'm trying to show someone the cost of illegal immigration, or what would happen to the economy without illegals. I think that mrnoodle has already covered that nicely. All my arguement was, was one of logic, and when taken as such, only someone who fails to listen to reason would try and come back and say they are wrong, like if I were to say that you are actually supposed to go when the stop light is red. It is simple, concise, and it is what it is, nothing more.

Thank you, shocker. An excellent and very readable response. A nice change from buffoons who just want to 'send'em back'. I don't recall arguing the numbers anywhere,because the people who I asked to deliver them in support of their position clearly felt threatened by the question. but it would they are harder to quantify than the simplistic would have us believe.

Shocker, do you believe that there comes a point when someone who arrived illegally has earned the right to stay? Or should every person who arrived here illegally be forced out? If you committed a speeding offence in 1986, would you be happy to receive a fine 20 years later because someone decided that speeding was becoming a major issue that needed radical action?

A single offense is not comparable to an ongoing crime...you should expect a pretty amazing fine if you've been over the speed limit continuously for twenty years. And the "statute of limitations" clock doesn't start running until the crime is over.

And you certainly don't get to argue with the judge insisting he prove exactly how dangerous speeding is.

How on Earth does how long you've been a criminal "earn" you the right to continue your crime? "Getting away with it" is not an extenuating circumstance, nor does it convey an easement.

Speaking of "feeling threatened by questions", we still haven't heard of the extent and timeframe of Billybob's Excellent American Adventure. Or why he left, come to think of it, since he claims to love Americans so much.

I think that any person who is here illegally no matter how long should have to "go". If you want to be here in America, do it the right way, and don't expect everyone else to conform to your beliefs just because you are here. I don't expect to move to Mexico or some other foreign country by hopping the border and moving there illegally and expect them to accept me and my beliefs. If you wanna be here, do it the right way. Contribute to society in the same way and adhere to the same rules and government regulations that we have to abide by.

Much better.You've been told, I'm not remotely interested in your opinion.

Ok, I think the best way for us to discuss this is to try and build some common ground. I am sure we can all agree that, obviously, illegal immigration is, well, illegal. Now, I'm not a legal expert by any measure, however, I do know that regardless of a persons intentions in breaking a law, when someone breaks a law then they are held accountable to it.

Now, as MaggieL pointed out, and whether you agree with her or not, every law, every crime committed, has a statute of limitations. That means that after you commit a crime, there is a time frame that charges or action must be brought against you, and if they aren't, once that period of time is up, then it would basically fall of. Crimes like homocide have no statute of limitations, while others, like speeding have a very short statute of limitations. So your example could never happen. However, for the sake of argument, if I was caught speeding in 1986 and then summoned to court in 2006 to pay past due fines and penalties, I would obviously be royally pissed off, of course I wouldn't be happy with that. But, I was raised to know when I do something wrong, and that I am responsible for my actions. So while I know that I would be pissed to pay up, I would accept responsiblity for breaking the law and pay up.

That said, illegal immigrants here today are still in the process of breaking the law. They are breaking the law by being here. Many have stolen social security numbers as well in order to obtain work. For a moment, just forget that we are talking about immigration, forget all the emotional arguments about them needing work or they are doing no harm. In as simple as black and white, when a law is broken, the penalties must be paid. Whether it is robbery, speeding, murder, rape, and even illegal immigration. The laws of our country have been structured as to not discriminate between groups of people. This has nothing to do with Mexico, Canada, Central America or anywhere else. This is a law which has been broken. And by being here for 20 years illegally rather than a week doesn't make it any better, it makes it worse! That would have been 20 years they were breaking the law, 20 years they could have tried of become legal immigrants. Instead they continued to disrespect our laws and our society.

So, Billybob, yes I do feel that any illegal immigrants aprehended on U.S. soil should be deported back to the countries they came from. If they really wanted to become Americans they would follow the processes that have been put in place in order for them to do so. In this I like to quote Teddy Roosevelt, what I would say was a darn good president, back in 1917:

As my last point, however, I just want to stress that all I have argued has been the logical arguement when you take the issue down to its simplest, concrete parts. Understandabley, there are emotions involved as well as differing belief systems which make the solutions for this simple problem, not so simple. The solution will take money, resources, and time. It will not be easy, but until a solution is found, we must stay the course, respect laws in place, and continue to enforce them as well as we possibly can.

Thank you and that is all.

You're breaking my heart.

Obviously you're only interested in handwaving until you find some plausible excuse for the position you're pursuing, and sell it to the gang here. But that doesn't exempt your handwaving from further criticism by anybody else here who cares to.

Despite Shocker's well-intentioned call for a search for common ground, I must conclude at this point that there isn't any common ground between your position and mine...nor I suspect between yours and the positions of most of the people posting into this thread.

You're operating from the axioms that illegal aliens must be allowed to stay the US (and more allowed in) and their sources of illegal income here protected, then moving forward in search of plausible rationales to support it.

Anyone who objects to your thesis must be shouted down as a racist, a xenophobe, or a blonde, or innundated with demands that they prove in detail from first principles that our laws are justified with reference to your personal value system, or criticised that their views are invalid because they obviously don't know what's happening in their own hometown as well as you do from your lofty South Pacific perch.

Perhaps you're driven by some indefinable collectivist primal urge to feel generous and moral by giving away things that belong to other people. Or maybe you're just bored and out to troll the people who really do have some skin in this game. It doesn't matter.

The short of it is that our laws--like yours--are what we made them to be. The fact that their enforcement has been ineffective indicates to many of us that they are in need of revision. But that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to repeal them, waiver them, or hand out amnesty to those who have shown contempt for both us and our laws; that has already been tried, and failed miserably leading to the current situation.

Fortunately we do have other options. One of those options it to improve the enforcement of those laws...and that's exactly why the bill in question passed the House of Representatives.

Your logrolling on behalf of both the criminals who are illegal aliens and the other criminals who profit from and exploit the illegal's status (including ,as I recall, Leona Helmsley, whom you mentioned earlier) just doesn't seem to be working out very well. People seem to understand that accepting your argument that "laws whose enforcement has been ineffective can be ignored" is not in their best personal interest, nor that of their country.

You may not be interested in my opinion...but you're not actually the only person who matters.

If one makes the claim that the United States stole half of Mexico in 1848 (funny the protesters didn't get the date correctly), you may as well say Spain took all of it in 1521. So go take your bitch to Madrid.

I'm beginning to think Billy's afraid the Maoris are going to take over NZ and send him home. :-)