Well, this being America, the difference is not really race, but economics. After all, OJ and Michael did find justice. Poor white kids and poor black kids join the Army. It is the employer of last resort and is a way to make some money and, if someone is ambitious, get training.

This war was slightly different in that there is a large National Guard and Reserve element. I would say that the Guard skews more towards middle class than the regular Army. Most of them have civilian jobs. A lot of them bought that 'The National Guard has not been called up since WWII' line.

Urbane Guerrilla, as a typical left or right wing extremist must do, cannot admit he had no proof for his speculation "that Saddam was hooked up with the terror guys". He admits, using silence, of no knowledge that "Saddam was hooked up with the terror guys". Silence is preferable to being honest when playing propaganda games.

Centrists first need facts before making a conclusion. Extremists will even lie to justify preordained agendas. Urbane Guerrilla will not admit it, but honesty appears to be not part of his character. That is the problem with having extremist and preordained agendas. Honesty no longer matters when propaganda and the agenda is more important.

Of course, UG still could demonstrate honesty. He still has the oppurtunity to prove his statement "that Saddam was hooked up with the terror guys". He admits, by silence, of no knowledge that "Saddam was hooked up with the terror guys". But he can't for two reasons. 1) No proof exists AND 2) that would be contrary to who Urbane Guerrilla is. Honesty and extremism are mutually exclusive.

But who is Urbane Guerrilla? Can Urbane Guerrilla name someone who is too right wing for him; more right wing then himself?

For the second time, TW: Case Closed was proof. It exists. You linked it here. You proved my case. And you just can't admit that non-democratic regimes have such a penchant for warmaking that they'll employ proxies as cat's-paws -- to make war. The dictatorships about which TW has such a blind spot continue to behave wrongfully unless firmly checked.

I am enjoying your demonstration of your neurotic thinking in your Fenimore Cooperesque verbiage, and as I said, you will fail in making me the issue. I enjoy seeing fanatics dig themselves in deeper: they are ineffectual, so. Whattaya know, honesty and extremism are mutually exclusive.

The Birchers are too right-wing for me. So are the LaRouchies. The KKK aren't really right-wing though -- their thinking isn't sane enough. Despite appearances, at their core Nazism and the other brands of fascism are really more leftist than rightist, with their "the State is all" philosophy: collectivism and aggrandizement of the State are of the left, not the right -- check von Kuhnelt-Liddehn for a rather impressive argument for this.

The Left is without virtue, TW. Don't whore after their false gods. I don't.

Terorism Local vs. global - need to understand the difference
 

Cannot claim to have read every comment/view that went before, but have some obesrvations.

Terrorism is international because we make it appropriate for it to be that way - Israeli support/bias, Iraq regime change being prime culprits. Give a man a good enough reason (stimulus) to react and he will - the harsher the reason the stronger the reaction. That applies both ways. From the 'terrorist' angle, take foreign interference out of the equation and how long would international 'terrorist' reaction be justified, or better still supported? Sure there would always be regional 'terrorist' reaction to regional issues - Irish with UK, Basque with Spain, and so on - but the reason to take a local issue to another country would evaporate - to maintain the support needs ongoing 'in-the-face' reason (stimulus). Think of the product life cycle of anything and you will appreciate that interest will only be sustained in any product/situation so long as there is sufficient stimulus to do so. Remove this and over time the original reason will be surpassed by a more attractive/novel/original cause to support. Hence the fact that we cannot tar everything that happens with a common brush but must acknowledge and accept that there are specific factions that rise and then fall in popularity. Saddam doesn’t = terrorism, doesn’t = international threat, but take away Saddam and you create the vacuum that terrorism can fill where there is a deluded and wanting public. Add the international element that evicted Saddam and is seen as supporting Israel over Palestine, and mix that with a faction of terrorism that acts against international interference and you have the volatile recipe that has fuelled the current well-baked cake of disruption.

A key question then is: have we gone too far to achieve a return to local/regional reaction? The deeper you are entrenched the harder it is to extract yourself and it will be brave international leaders that have the courage and foresight to find the means and support to withdraw on an international level and overcome the short-term economic and strategic risks and consequences that such action precipitates.

Clearly the current aggressive approach is not working and serves only to escalate the crisis. Poverty has a link to the extent that it causes the local population to share an identity of common cause when there is nothing else to give them hope of changing their status - and of course they have time and will enough to follow the leaders that court their attention. The poor need one or both of: freedom from poverty and/or reason to support another doctrine.

Time now therefore to put effort, not into aggression, but to achieving the withdrawal of support for 'terrorist' reaction on an international scale while preserving the status quo in economic stability. Achieve that and international threats will reduce to local issues can be dealt with – byte sized pieces that can be attended to with the appropriate level of action and remedy locally, without requiring an international presence. A difficult objective but is there really any other way…?

That was just about the most sensible post in this thread I've seen thusfar.
:beer:

It is a thoughtful post, but it still ignores a few basic facts:

1) Extremist imams call the shots in much of the middle east.
2) These imams call for the eradication of ALL Jews.
3) Israel is our ally. Muslim extremism therefore is targeted at America by default.
4) Terrorism has always been international. The only reason for its absence on American soil is not appeasement or negotiation, but the threat of our military might.

By attacking Iraq, we have achieved the following:

1) Terrorist acts are not occurring here, as on 9/11; when they occur, they tend to happen there, where they can be contained, and the perpetrators can more easily be killed or captured.
2) Those acts that do occur internationally are directed at our allies, to reduce support. They are not happening in the US, because of two things:
.....a) we have a highly effective anti-terrorism machine.
.....b) because we have shown the will to respond with force, terrorism on our soil will not reap the benefits it did in Spain. Britain's latest events were tests of resolve, which were passed with flying colors. They'll pick on another ally next time, unless I miss my guess.
3) Iraq is no longer a source of income and shelter for terrorists. It's a place for them to meet Allah, which achieves our strategic goals as well as their personal ones. Win-win! /sarcasm
4) When we pull out, Iraq will have a democratically elected government, and a police/military that is prepared and motivated to to fight their own war on terror. It will also serve as a buffer between extremist nations, hampering their ability to operate at will in that region.

Abandoning Iraq will scuttle any hope of freedom from terror for its citizens. The first wacko imam to the capitol building will take over, and every death will have been in vain. This is an acceptable alternative to our anti-war crowd because it gains them a domestic political victory. That's sickening.

We have to win in Iraq. It will stabilize the area and send a strong message to other countries that harbor terrorists that we are committed to eliminating the threat that terrorism represents. That is the only way to get their cooperation. Diplomacy and sanctions only work to a point. They are utterly useless tools against extremists whose only goal is to die in the jihad against the west.

IMO, were aren't being targeted because we are friends with Israel, but because we are the biggest and tuffest dude on the block who has thier fingers in everyone's counties. A lot of these extermists are young, unemployed, highly impressionable kids/young men who are looking for a better life. When you have someone telling you how you can have a dozen virgins feeding you moldy grapes for all eternity and become a local hero in the process, they want this. Since the Russians pulled out of Afganistan, they ran out of reasons to die for...enter the U.S. who is not going anywhere for a long time. We are high profile and can be viewed as bullies when it comes to implementing democracy on other contries. What better way to justify Jihad and get a few points under your belt than to take out a few hundred Americans.

I think the real reason why we haven't been attacked again is because Al Qeada is masters at biding thier time. They can wait months, years, even decades before striking. Time means nothing to them. True, we do have a better infastruction that has prevented some serious potential attacks but the majority of our Anti-terrorism machine is still covered up in bubble-wrap and located in some storage wharehouse somewhere. I don't think it's as effective as we are being led to believe.


We can not eliminate terrorism, it has to run it's course. Eventually, the extermists will grow tired of this way of life and move on to something else (possibly more sinister). The only way it can be defeated externally is if the entire world grows tired of thier people dying in sensless and brutal deaths, bands together, and begins to erraticate all Muslims wholesale in an event that will make Milošević look like Walt Disney (not going to happen).

Excellent. This is the crux of the reason why conventional war/battle/force will not work in the defeat of terrorism. You can't threaten death to someone who is praying for death...literally. They got nothing to loose. You kill them, they become martyrs. You let them live, they become martyrs. You hit them with sactions, they become martyrs. You...well, you get the picture.

I cannot agree with a lot of what you say mrnoodle, but I suspect that would be stating the obvious. To give my reasons - your words first f/b mine hopefully in Italics if the programming works as it should::

1) Extremist imams call the shots in much of the middle east.
** There are extremists in many countries - we have the BNP, France has Le Penn for example. They are unsuccessful because the bulk of the population has a civilised lifestyle as a result of the existing regime. These extremists' message has no value for the majority and so they are ineffective. The answer is to render the imams ineffective - trying to eradicate them turns them into either living or dead martyrs, and, as Hobbs says, that feeds the extremist regime.

2) These imams call for the eradication of ALL Jews.
** as above

3) Israel is our ally. Muslim extremism therefore is targeted at America by default.
**Just because Israel is your ally does not mean that everything that your ally does is right. The strength of a friendship is in the ability for one party to influence the others actions for their benefit and the greater benefit of others. Rightly or wrongly Israel is seen as an aggravant whose actions appear to receive wholehearted US support. Change that view to change the view of the extremists

4) Terrorism has always been international. The only reason for its absence on American soil is not appeasement or negotiation, but the threat of our military might.
** Not true on both counts. Having lived through decades of our own 'terrorist' problem in Northern Ireland, I do not recall that the problems we faced extended beyond our shores. We may not have solved the Irish issue but we have achieved much more than many with a protracted ceasefire and a return to a level of normality in daily life that, whatever the differences might be, none of the affected parties is in a hurry to throw away. This was not achieved by the might of the sword but by the might of the word.

By attacking Iraq, we have achieved the following:

1) Terrorist acts are not occurring here, as on 9/11; when they occur, they tend to happen there, where they can be contained, and the perpetrators can more easily be killed or captured.
**Not sure I understand the logic here - on this basis the acts should be diminishing but they certainly are not

2) Those acts that do occur internationally are directed at our allies, to reduce support. They are not happening in the US, because of two things:
.....a) we have a highly effective anti-terrorism machine.
.....b) because we have shown the will to respond with force, terrorism on our soil will not reap the benefits it did in Spain. Britain's latest events were tests of resolve, which were passed with flying colors. They'll pick on another ally next time, unless I miss my guess.
**The perpetrators are not afraid and as Hobbs says it is only a matter of time. The longer that aggression towards and destruction of the factions is the objective there will be counter-attack. I tend to agree with Hobbs that it might not be hitting US soil right now but that is not to say it won't. Also IMO the attacks on Britain are unlikely to be the last.

3) Iraq is no longer a source of income and shelter for terrorists. It's a place for them to meet Allah, which achieves our strategic goals as well as their personal ones. Win-win! /sarcasm
4) When we pull out, Iraq will have a democratically elected government, and a police/military that is prepared and motivated to to fight their own war on terror. It will also serve as a buffer between extremist nations, hampering their ability to operate at will in that region.
**Unfortunately the democratically elected goverbnment failed to attract a major section of the population who have not signed up to the new way. As a a result, there is more likelihood of ongoing civil unrest and even a splitting of the nation into two opposing and warring factions. You simply cannot force a way of life on to a people that does not recognise that way as being any part of their culture. They will rebel.

Abandoning Iraq will scuttle any hope of freedom from terror for its citizens. The first wacko imam to the capitol building will take over, and every death will have been in vain. This is an acceptable alternative to our anti-war crowd because it gains them a domestic political victory. That's sickening.

We have to win in Iraq. It will stabilize the area and send a strong message to other countries that harbor terrorists that we are committed to eliminating the threat that terrorism represents. That is the only way to get their cooperation. Diplomacy and sanctions only work to a point. They are utterly useless tools against extremists whose only goal is to die in the jihad against the west.[/quote]
** I can almost agree your words in the last two paragraphs, but I would be applying the words to a different concept. Diplomacy has to be the better answer (not the only answer) as foreign intervention of an aggressive and dictatorial nature certainly will never achieve longterm stable results. I certainly do not advocate abandoning the situation for the very reasons you state. However, eliminating terrorism does not mean killing the perpetrators, to my mind it means rendering them and their doctrine ineffective by making it unpalatable and unattractive to the highest possible proportion of the population. Winning in Iraq for me means achieving that.

The only way the US (or the West in general) could possibly give the population of such countries a civilized lifestyle is to first move in and take over from the governments who are currently there. Are you sure you want to support such overt imperialism?


Ridiculous. The extremists will hate Israel no matter what the US does, and they'll hate US support of Israel as long as it exists, whether or not that support appears "wholehearted" or not.

It's imperialism if you're determined to stay and exact tribute from the resulting subjects. Absent staying...

Considering the fact that terrorists do not sit in one place waiting to be attacked, how does the 'threat of our might' stop them. After 4 years we still can't find Bin Laden, the most wanted fugitive in the world. We can raid all the houses and caves in Iraq, but have still failed to lower the number of terrorist attacks.

Terrorists (and rebels, insurgents, etc) do not fight from fixed bases or capitals. They cannot be invaded. They hide in neutral or allied countries.

It's possible that our improved security has made it harder to attack the US, but it's really not possible for Bin Laden or Al Qaeda to become even more wanted by us, so I don't believe that they are holding back out of fear that we will want to kill them even more than we do now.

We're building the biggest embassy in the world there, and I doubt the military bases we're building are temporary. As for tribute, we'll see.

Fox News reported this week that the number of terrorist attacks in Iraq has dropped for the third month straight. The number is down by about a quarter from three months ago, but the bangs are getting bigger. Fox also remarked that they didn't know whether it was us or them -- Rump Saddamites losing steam or the calm before another storm?

Monkey, the solidest and most objective evidence out there is that our Middle East policy is not and never was all about oil. Israel? Nary a drop that didn't get there by tanker. We had an army sitting atop the Rumaila Field, which is the biggest of Iraq's oilfields. We drove off it, packed up and went home. Didn't even pump barrel one for a souvenir. I believe and credit that solid and objective evidence. Being immunized against conspiracy theory, I don't get sucked in by the kind of thing you're believing in.

[quote=Cyclefrance]** There are extremists in many countries - we have the BNP, France has Le Penn for example. They are unsuccessful because the bulk of the population has a civilised lifestyle as a result of the existing regime. These extremists' message has no value for the majority and so they are ineffective. The answer is to render the imams ineffective - trying to eradicate them turns them into either living or dead martyrs, and, as Hobbs says, that feeds the extremist regime.

You raise an important point in your response to the above Russotto. It was not my intention that the example of 'civilised lifestyle' should be associated so directly as a solution to extremism in every case (it was supporting the European examples given) but the effect was that you made that connection. There you have it: intention vs. effect. How often is that behind the wrong result. No doubt the US intended/intends to make the US and world a safer place through its actions, but the effect has produced and continues to produce something else. The answer in such situations surely is a rethink and change, not more of the same.