What I'm saying is that few have taken hold of all of the opportunities available to them.

That's only true of literally being held down. It's a convenient fiction so that they can excuse themselves for not even trying to stand up in the first place. It's a similar argument that obese people and school kids tend to use their lack of self control and discipline.

Cool statistics on socio-economic comparison of minorities to non-hispanic whites.

Fair Data

Some surprising results.

how do you figure? have you even looked at the make up of american businesses today compared to 50 years ago? of course, you aren't likely to find any success stories who will speak to you in ebonics... outside of sports or hiphop.

And this has what to do with ebonics?

Ebonics to me is along the same lines as Scientology.. whatever turns you on, but that doesn't mean it necessarily holds water.

dare I say it?
...............like a Tanzanian irrigation ditch?
oooohhhhhh - I am evil.............

How do you figure they have made full use of their opportunities?

No, have you?

I never said that they weren't better off today than 50 years ago. I only said that not many of them have done all they could to rise higher. Things have improved greatly for them but mostly in the arena of opportunities.

Just so we don't have to go over this again:

• Blacks are better off in general than they were in the past.
• Blacks still have a long way to go to achieve a level on par with whites.
• Blacks are better represented in business than they were 50 years ago.
• Placeholder for a couple of other things I probably forgot.
• lookout123 is very nearly illiterate.
• lookout123 doesn't understand the concept of context.

Can we now get back to the interesting aspects of this argument and leave the hostility behind us ( or at least find some statistics to back up the arguments so that we can have some closure to the hostilities at some point )?

Nothing, it is in response to l123's tangent.

Tell that to Noam Chomsky.

You do realize that you're basically insulting every language on the planet, right? Ebonics got a bad name in the 90's when some jackass thought it would be a good idea to teach it, or accept it, in school.

What if I went to some Hill-Town in Tennessee and started forcing those people to speak SAE? I'd be dead in a second, yet we go into the inner city and do the same thing and expect to be lauded as saviors of all that is Good and American.

My only hope with all of this shit is that I can convince one person that AAVE is just as valid as SAE and is only frowned upon because our society tends to frown upon the people who speak it.

So you're saying even though it is just as valid a language as any other, it shouldn't be taught in schools?

Have fun with that.

Of course it shouldn't be taught in school. Do we teach Redneck American English in school? Should we? No fucking way.

Teaching the society's dominant language is important, people already know how to speak at home and on the streets.

Yeah, I've come to realize that the Cellar is largely populated by insular, narrow-minded, dim-wits. Just about to give up on any half-way intelligent conversation here. I know it's the internet, but I thought maybe the Cellar could be different.

Actually I've found a large portion of the Cellar to be very bright, well educated, and open minded. Just becasue their opinions differ from yours, and they may not have taken as many linguistics couses as recently as you, does not indicate anything to the contrary - It just emphasizes your narrow mindedness for not accepting that yours is not the only version of the truth.

Exactly.

This entire thread since we hijacked it has been about spoken english. There's nothing "wrong" with your language as long as your intended audience/social-group understand what ideas you're trying to convey.

Get this:

Yet for some reason, they dont have a special grading curve for students in Hill-town, Tennessee, who speak, ... what language again?

I dont understand this.....

wow. I finally agree with Grant for agreeing with Noodle. Well said bof y'all.

Why does everything have to be "validated" these days? The reason AAVE (any patois, for that matter) is frowned upon is because it's lazy English. I commonly use "fixin' to" when talking about an action I am imminently going to perform. That's because I'm in the habit of doing so, and everyone in my family said the same thing when I was growing up. But if I go to Minneapolis, Philly, or NYC and tell someone "I'm fixin' to go to the Wal-Mart for some peanuts," I would be immediately labelled as a hick.

Guess what? That's okay. I don't care. You sayin you don't want none a these peanuts? Aight.

But if I ever get to the point where my well-being is threatened by some yankee's opinion of my fixin to do's, just take me out and shoot me like a dog.

I've been trying to put my perspective, the perspective of the level of linguistics I'm familiar with, across so that someone can say "Yes that makes sense from that perspective".

• Use of Ebonics/AAVE has negative social connotations.
• Ebonics/AAVE is used primarily by those of lower socio-economic levels.
• Ebonics/AAVE has a strong cultural and historic background.
• Ebonics/AAVE is as valid a language, from a theoretical linguistics perspective, as Standard American English or Hoch-Deutsch or Martian or whatever.

Those are the four points I wish everyone could understand. This thread got kind of out of hand, I'm not even sure where we started out, and I apologize for getting pissy and insulting folks.

Yeah, pretty fucked up, they wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

I hear that the next initiative is to have Ebonomatics for those that make errors in mathematics because it's not in terms they use at home (no I won't give any of the tasteless examples that pop immediately to mind, involving dime-bags and crack rocks).

Should we add the AAVE/Ebonics War, and call a truce? ;)

I speak the same way my family does in rural Missouri when I'm back there. I've been in NY for 8 years so I speak, largely anyway, the way they speak here. It helps that since elementary school I've been pretty strongly pressured to develop a Region-Neutral Dialect.

Language is one of the most beautiful things in our world and it sucks to see people shit on the way people tell each other things like "I love you" and "Pass 'da peanut buttah I'm'a fixin' ta' have a sammich".

I'm sorry Mr.Noodle I think I caught an early revision of this post in one of my other replies. Still...good message.

I think that's a good idea. I've got an idea for a new thread though so keep your eyes peeled.

i'm not sure which college you are attending, but in most of the more reputable ones they don't teach insulting someone as an effective means of getting your point across. but if you do feel the need to insult me, come up with something better you son of a motherless goat.

Pretty much my point. You want to call it a language, go ahead. Just don't mind if I call you a dumb jerk for speaking it. THAT was my point!

It's over bud. Anyway, I believe I apologized.

i ain't yer bud, bra.

http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/

What kind of american english do you speak?

<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
65% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
20% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
10% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
5% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>

<div align="center">
<a href="http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/">What Kind of American English Do You Speak?</a>
</div>

80% General American English
5% Dixie
5% Midwestern
5% Upper Midwestern
5% Yankee

<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
70% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
15% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
10% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
5% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>

Strange I'm from Missouri and have no Midwestern expressions?

I call Soda/Pop/Coke: Soda or Soda Pop
I say "Catta Corner" or when I'm around the part of my family with a Missourian Drawl I say something kind of like "Catter Corner" or "Catte' Corner" where the ' is a glottal stop.

taking this one atm, will edit with results

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?te...02516259233005

Your accent is nothing exceptional; it may be "colorful" or you might just be from Southern California. You also don't catch some grammatical points, and are thus probably one of the people contributing to the death of the subjunctive, which is just as well. More than half of test-takers fall into this category; no one, as of this writing, has scored higher than 85% on the orthophony aspect of the test.

My test tracked 2 variables How you compared to other people your age and gender:

You scored higher than 47% on orthophony

You scored higher than 4% on eugrammacy


********************
Actually, when I wasnt in England, most of my youth was in California and Arizona (which is all Eastern Californian anyways), so I'm not surprised I have a California Dialect.

You scored higher than 13% on orthophony
You scored higher than 69% on eugrammacy

75% General
10% Upper Midwestern
5% Midwestern
5% Dixie
5% Yankee

<table style="color: black;" align="center" border="1" bordercolor="black" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="400"><tbody><tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#a8ffb3">Your Linguistic Profile:

</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#d9ffd8">75% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#a8ffb3">20% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#d9ffd8">5% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#a8ffb3">0% Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#d9ffd8">0% Upper Midwestern</td></tr></tbody></table>

60% General American English
20% Dixie
20% Yankee
0% Midwestern
0% Upper Midwestern

I guess that's what happens when you have a mother from Tey-xas and a father from New Joisey... :)

...and...

Stereotype-shatterer
You scored 60% on orthophony and 100% on eugrammacy!
Despite your nonstandard way of speaking, you seem to appreciate some very fine points of grammar. Next time the New York Times has an opening for an editor. . . .

How you compared to other people your age and gender:
You scored higher than 73% on orthophony
You scored higher than 93% on eugrammacy

Stereotype-shatterer
You scored 16% on orthophony and 100% on eugrammacy!
Despite your nonstandard way of speaking, you seem to appreciate some very fine points of grammar. Next time the New York Times has an opening for an editor. . . .




My test tracked 2 variables How you compared to other people your age and gender:

You scored higher than 0% on orthophony

You scored higher than 66% on eugrammacy

I always suspected I was wierd... :worried:

This is a relatively recent viewpoint. I know a lot of people who are VERY proud of their ethnic identity, and don't speak their mother (or father, depending on culture) tongues.

Your Linguistic Profile:
60% General American English
35% Yankee
5% Dixie
0% Midwestern
0% Upper Midwestern

What's interesting is that my primary language acquisition occured in the Midwest (Chicago Suburbs) but I was raised by Eastern parents.

<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
55% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
30% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
15% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
0% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>

<div align="center">
<a href="http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/">What Kind of American English Do You Speak?</a>
</div>

Of course, my accent is Northern Appalachia, so I don't know if people really hear Yankee...

Heh. I was raised in DC by Midwestern parents, and I also ended up with 0% Midwest.

Apropos of this thread, I received this from xoxoxobruce the other day ...

<table style="color: black;" width=400 align=center border=1 bordercolor=black cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr><td align="center" bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
<h3>Your Linguistic Profile:</h3>
</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
65% General American English</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
15% Dixie</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
10% Upper Midwestern</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#A8FFB3">
10% Yankee</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#D9FFD8">
0% Midwestern</td></tr></table>

<div align="center">
<a href="http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/">What Kind of American English Do You Speak?</a>
</div>

So, where exactly is Ohio, where I grew up, if not in the Midwest? :puzzled:

I suppose so. I hadn't really looked back at things very well. I'm not sure where this new trend came about or if it really is a trend that applies to the majority of ethnic groups. (This is one of my complaints about sociology and social science, very little is concrete. Nobody knows anything, it's all hypthetical or anecdotal evidence)

Another strong factor, I believe, is that Ebonics and Spanish speakers tend to remain in, or strongly connected to, a social group who's primary language is not SAE. Latinos tend to stay closely tied to their families in Latin American countries through the Spanish language so it remains important for them to know it. For urban Ebonics speaking blacks, unless they move to a non-Ebonics speaking area and are forced to interact daily & relatively intimately, they will continue to speak Ebonics and pick up rudimentary(hopefully at least) SAE skills. That is if both groups are accepting of the others.

(i'm quite sleep deprived so if none of that made sense, it's either because I'm retarded or not all here right now)

If Sammy says that to the Snakes on the Plane I'll be able to die happy.