So you think that your understanding of the radioactive properties of carbon 14 is more enlightened than that of the world's scientific community?
http://www.cellar.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

Ditto.

No, my understanding of carbon-14 dating is that it has proven time and again, consistantly, to be unreliable outside of a few thousand years. Why anyone would continually try to use a dating method that is wrong to prove millions of years is beyond me.

the numbers on this poll are much closer than i thought they'd be. 19 believe in some kind of god, 19 don't. 3 think it's for fools (but didn't say whether they believed or not :haha:), and 2 didn't vote because there was no pagan choice.

no wonder these threads go on for so long.

Beestie, carbon-14 dating isn't accurate beyond a few tens of thousands of years - it doesn't in any way discredit young-earth-creationist arguments. Ice core samples in Antarctica, on the other hand......

This argument isn't winnable by either side, based on available evidence. The Bible doesn't offer a clear timeline (trying to add up years based on geneological lists is just as silly as using carbon-14 dating to prove something is 44 gazillion years old), and the best science has to offer is "we don't know, just believe us, we're mainstream science, and we do experiments and stuff."

Creationists would do well to forget about the young-earth thing and concentrate on the more important messages in the bible.

What in your opinion, is the most important message in the Bible?

I think that focusing on "more important messages" in the Bible are completely dependant upon the validity of the book.

If I can't believe, "In the beginning" then how can I believe anything else in the same book?

edit: this is what I mean by blind faith....I don't have it.

I don't.

Let me put it this way:

If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.

Doesn't that make creation pretty important?

I picked "Only fools..." because there wasn't a choice equating to "Insufficient evidence for a truly rational mind".

:D

Not particularly. Neither is a proven occurence.

I meant in the context of the important messages in the bible, TS.

Ah, my mistake.

Gosh now that's not the result i was expecting to find. How heartening to see somany people dont believe in the tooth fairy...sorry I mean dont believe in God:P

oh wow...do you do standup? That was so freaking funny.... man...

[insider Christian-talk]
Oh nononono. The fact that God created everything is very important. The biblical timeline vis-a-vis the "evolutionary" timeline is not. In fact, it's a distraction and a barrier to sharing the message of Christ - which is the central theme of our faith.[/insider Christian-talk]

As long as the argument amounts to "Whaddya mean we came from monkeys???" vs. "Pfft on your so-called god and your cute little non-Darwin-inspired 'theeeeeories'." nobody from either side learns anything.

I'm still convinced that all the people waiting for a "sign from God" will get none until they actively search with an open heart. No free magic shows. I also think that people who believe blindly will find themselves disappointed and doubting God more often than not. God gave you a brain, too.

DanaC, why so aggro?

Bravo!

*nitpicking* it isn't blind faith if they have looked at the info and have come to that conclusion based on the available info.

2 people can look at the same info, come up with 2 different conclusions without relying on blind faith. blind faith is the creationist who believes the way they do because their mom told them so and also the evolutionist who believes that way because his science teacher told him so...

*nitpicking concluded*

*LR is waiting patiently for a response...*

One problem of taking the bible for word for word truth is that it's been translated multiple times, and thusly lots of things have been slightly changed...creating potentially new meanings for different passages...

Quote Brianna: "It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma."
confounded by human inaccuracy

Got to add some to your scenario...

If your spouse had free will, and chose to do all that bad stuff and divorce you, he would be selecting his own outcome, right? What if you had a child who was so distraught over the spouse's bad decision that he offered to pay the penalty himself, and bring the spouse back into the right relationship with you? If the spouse accepts this gift, he gets back into the family and the matter is never spoken of again.

Doesn't sound vengeful or jealous to me.

If you have a child, you know that being a parent ain't easy. You have rules. They are there not to get your kids in trouble, but to protect them. You tell them "these are the rules and this is what happens if you break the rules". If they then choose to break the rules, willfully and defiantly, just because they don't feel like following them, is it wrong to be consistant and stick to the rules and consequences?

Man, if you only knew how many times I hear this argument....Agreed, translating from one language to another (and in some cases two languages into another) is ALWAYS difficult.

As far as accuracy, we have MULTIPLE surviving copies of all of the books in the bible. Don't you think they've been checked and rechecked against each other for accuracy? When there is a problem with translation, we are given notes in the text to compare the word or phrase against another portion of text, sometimes in a different book. That's what those little notations are.

Now accuracy and interpretation are two different things. That's why there are so many different bible interpretations. KJV, NASB, NIV, etc... Just because they have different words, generally, the verses mean the same thing.



Edit: Hell isn't all fire and brimstone. Hell is the eternal absence of God.

Let me ask this of the non-religious: What is the main obstacle in your personal opinion that prevents you from believing in a God? (Not just the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god, any god).

For the religious but not Judeo-Christian-Muslim variety, why do you believe in the God(s)/Goddess(es) you do?

Sorry LR - i've been trying to decide how i really want to respond. I can't respond with hard facts, as we all know. this is about faith. a choice. i realize that anyone who doesn't believe in A god will dismiss what i say, look for wholes in it, and some will choose to pick at my intelligence for believing in something they find ridiculous. I am not a theologian. I am answering some questions with the beliefs that are part of my personal faith. for those reason's i generally try to stay away from these discussions. i don't find much value in arguing over articles of faith. but...

it is an analogy, certainly not perfect... but before you get married you absolutely do know that your soon to be spouse will fail you. you may not know whether or not they will cheat, but you do know it is a possibility. you know for a fact that they will at some point lie, be unkind, be a slob, etc... you know this very well, but you probably choose to leave the choice to love you or not love you in his hands. that really isn't that different than what God has done with us. He knows we will fail him in some ways. He wants us to love and honor him. He wants the best for us. He allows us to make the choice to follow Him or follow our own path.

if your spouse has the choice to love you and honor you, but chooses to reject you - would you still welcome him with open arms? would you keep an open shelf in the closet for his things? would he still have access to your bed? If a person chooses to reject God throughout their life, why would we expect God to welcome them into His eternal kingdom - a kingdom that the individual has rejected?

I don't feel it is vengeful, but i can understand your feeling on the issue. I do believe that God does love us all unconditionally. I believe that it troubles Him when we reject Him. "not a sparrow falls, without a tear from the One who made and put us here..." and all that. But He has given us the choice to accept Him and His gift to us, or reject Him and choose our own path.

as far as the "break his rules" part - We all break his rules. The most dedicated believer will sin. period. there isn't a measure of # of good deeds vs. # of bad deeds to get into heaven. it is an act of faith to 1) believe in God (a higher power than myself), 2) Believe that his Son died and rose again (to pay the wages of my sin), and 3) to accept this gift of redemption (acknowledge that I cannot buy or earn my way into His grace).

those are the requirements laid down in the New Testament. If you reject the Bible than none of this really matters to you. We as individuals have the freedom to accept these things through faith and believe them to be true - always knowing that we may be proven wrong in the end. We also have the freedom to choose our own path with the knowledge that we may be wrong in the end.

Again - this isn't meant to convince anyone of anything. I am not the answer man. This is my faith.

Because there is no void in my life that can't be filled either with reason or an ability to understand that there are things out there that are beyond my control.

I don't need the hollow comfort of an invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being whose only context is derived by taking the word of someone who has the same frame of referrence as I do, but claims to be able to access the same invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being.

just a little shameless thread pimping, but onyx, you may want to track this thread about having good reasons for believing things.

I avoid the creation/evolution threads because they don't hold a lot of interest for me. I accept the Bible as the word of God. I believe in an "all or nothing faith". my faith is not a smorgasbord. BUT - OC why does it matter if the world was created in 6 literal days? does your faith rest on the idea that God snapped his fingers and everything instantly appeared? creationism and darwinian development don't have to be mutually exclusive. why argue the "how" of it? If you believe that God brought something from nothing, can you be open to the idea that it did happen slowly, a process rather than an event? survival of the fittest and the effect it has upon different species is self evident - does that necessarily negate your faith in a Creator God?

the more you argue something about something that cannot be proven the less people are willing to listen to the truly important message of the Bible - The forgiveness availabe through Jesus Christ. That message is not dependent upon our understanding of the creation process.

I feel the same way when i hear people argue NO/Pre/Mid/Post tribulation rapture. Does it matter on anything other than an academic level? these are distractions from the one truly important message in the Bible forgiveness for disobedience.

And TS - do you really believe that one must have a noticeable void in one's life to seek God? i have always had "perfect" vision, so i never questioned my eyes. (yes, i choose to deny the aging process). i was at the eye dr's one day and decided to check my eyes out - not really thinking there were any issues. it turns out that i do need glasses for reading. i didn't realize i had a need until i had something to meet the unknown need right in front of my eyes. i can now see better than ever because of the glasses i didn't know i needed.

just a thought.

Not a bad thought except for the fact that there is nothing to compare my vision against. There is no way to say that God is lacking in my life if Vishnu is the real deal. There is no way to say that I am missing Odin in my life if Cthulhu is the real deal.

What is the real deal?

And yes, I believe that people use religion/faith to fill a void in their lives even if they don't realize it. Otherwise what's the point?

Well, there's that whole ethnic cleansing thing but that's a whole other debate.

The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.

The only book that has all the information you need to this end is the Bible. The bible has to be truthworthy in ALL of it's sections to be trustworthy in ANY of it's sections. Therefore, it has to be trustworthy from the first words.

I used to have a real big problem with the bible as a trustworthy document. In fact, it was the biggest reason why I wasn't a Christian. I was fully on the side of evolution and then I became a witch. I participated in ceremonies and came to know a creator God and I have seen spells, energies, and divination work firsthand.

Evolution went out the window. At that point I realized that we are not here by some lucky astronomical random chance, but rather, this universe was purposefully created and intelligently designed, and forces within that design can be manipulated, if you know how. Each person makes their own choices and must be responsible for the consequences of that choice.

I still believe that.

However, my study of the bible (including it's veracity) and other sources, along with my intellect, have shown me that there is compatibility with my beliefs as a witch and Christian beliefs, and harmony with what I have seen and experienced firsthand and those documents.

I guess you can call me a Christian Witch. And before anyone pulls out that old saying, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" in Exodus 22:17, makesofha the Hebrew word used, is more accurately translated as "practitioner of sorcery", which is someone who is performing EVIL rituals to pagan gods (Baal, etc). Many Wiccans now use the term "Warlock" to mean someone who practices the dark arts. So IMO, the passage is more correctly translated as "Do not tolerate an evil sorceress to remain among you." (Yes, I have done my homework, teacher.)

Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.

The needs of the spirit can't be filled with reason. Not only is pure reason a cold companion, it's faulty when it comes to things related to the soul. You're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when you sense a void in your life, you either try to work it out intellectually, or write it off as a "shit happens" moment. That's not filling anything, that's just analysis.

No one needs hollow comfort, but everyone searches for real peace. You shouldn't take anyone's word about anything spiritual - it's all there for you to find yourself. It would be nice if you could look at a Christian and see a real difference in their life, and have the truth become immediately apparent, but the fact is we aren't very good at being righteous. So just spend some time reflecting, without being defensive or running through all the sins of "the church" over the years, or all the times someone calling themselves Christian did something horrible.

At some point you realize some voids can't be filled with reason, and the only option left is to ask God to explain why. The trick is not to ignore the answer, which usually conflicts with what we want to hear ("Everything's going to be alright, just keep doing what you're doing.")

[/ramble]

Sheesh, I can't even post before 5 other people get in front of me. lol

Yes, I agree. But while we spend infinite amounts of time reflecting on the nature of hydrogen and oxygen and all the different ways they can be combined, there's water that needs bailing.

Jesus said he was him. That makes him either a liar, a nut, or the real deal.

It matters because God said he did it in 6 literal days.

I can choose to believe God did it just like He said He did in the Bible
or
I can choose to believe God lied to me and everyone else and I can't trust the Bible for anything.


It's an all or nothing proposition.

I choose the former.


I can choose to believe God did it just like He said He did in the Bible
or
I can choose to believe men who have no faith in my God, who don't believe he even exists, and who have actively worked to destroy faith in Him.


Because God said it happened one way. I have to take a stand and say "I believe God did it the way he says he did" or I have to stand and say "There is no God." or worse, "God is a liar."

Either God is a liar or he's not. If he's not, then the world was created in 6 literal days. If he is, then he is irrelevant and I can't believe any of it.


Not at all. Mutations and speciation happens. It's observable science. The question was creation in 6 literal days. Obviously the world today is not as it was then.

But that message IS dependant on it! If someone doesn't know why they need forgiveness, then Christ's redemption is meaningless. So you have to establish what sin is in order to explain forgiveness. To explain sin, you have to explain who the sin is against and WHY it's sin. That can only be done by explaining that God created this world. So to explain to someone what a gift Jesus gave, you HAVE to explain WHY he gave it. Creation is crucial to that understanding.

I don't think Revelationary discussion has as much importance as creation does to the meaning of Christ's sacrifice.

1) Why do you presume that there is a spiritual component the needs to be filled?

2) Not everything that occurs in our lives has a reason based on reason. Causality may exist but we may not be able to see it. Why make something up, wrap it in pretty trappings and call it truth if there may just be not other reason than causality?


A made up story is still just a made up story, whether it comes from a mad arab, or some guy staring at his belly button. Either one may just be a different face of the same reality, but that still presumes the existence of some spiritual something.

Why ask why if there is no certainty as to whom to ask?

OC - i'm not saying that it definitely wasn't 6 literal, 24 hour days as we have them now. i am saying that it may have been otherwise. God's time frame, may not be ours. it has only been within recent centuries that we've even had a 12 month calendar. time was marked differently then. for instance - someone in the old testament lived 800 years. 800 years in a 10 month system vs a 12 month system is pretty significant, somewhere around 133 years in our current system of counting.

anyway - i'm not going to argue this, you are free to believe what you want. if it matters to you then by all means, go ahead. it isn't a sticking point for me. i don't are if it was one 24 hour day or one 24000 hour day. i'm thinking that if God can create something from nothing, then time isn't really that big of an issue for Him.

nowhere in the Bible have i seen a verse that says "and God created all the birds and the fish, etc within 2 rotations of the hands on his timex"

i guess what i was trying to get at is that you can't convince someone to have faith - you can only display yours and let them question and decide for themselves. i think too often we get wrapped up in trying to prove things that... anyway - do what works for you.

I have the backing of umpteen jillion world religions, offshoots of such, and...well, don't be silly. If we weren't searching for the spiritual piece of the puzzle, both individually and corporately, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. We would have called it a moot point right around the time we discovered fire.

Finding the meaning behind the obvious causality is where spirituality comes in. If a butterfly flapping its wings causes a hurricane on the other side of the world, the people hit by the hurricane still want to know before they die, "Why am I here?"

Address your question "To whom it may concern" and see who answers. My God answers anonymous questions - if the person asking has understanding as his/her motivation, and not "ok, show me what you got".

The obvious question to this is "yeah, but what if I don't believe in a spiritual nature?". I say you do believe in it, but have chosen to ignore it for some reason. It's inbred.

But God DID give us a timeframe:

"And the evening and the morning were the first DAY."

This says nothing about the months, I'm just talking about days...creation days. He gave us a reference then used that reference to tell us how he did it.


edit: If he did take millions of years, why wouldn't he just tell us he took millions of years?? Or say the word "age" or "period of time"? No, he told us how long a day was, and then told us how many days it took and what he created on which day. I have to believe he's not lying to us.


No, I don't think it's big issue for him...and it's not an issue for me, but the whole argument is an issue for me, for the reasons I've stated.

see above....

I agree. I can't give my faith to anyone. All I can do is say something or argue a point and hope that maybe it will cause them to think about that for a second, and maybe look a little deeper into it for themselves. Most of the time that doesn't happen, but what if, just one time, it did?

You miss my point. Just because there is a question doesn't mean that there is an answer. A cognitive need is not necessarily derived from the existence of some ephemeral entity.

And leave my family out of this. ;)

But you have yet to show any of these answers and how they differ from your run-of-the-mill hallucination.

I got your point, and thought I answered it. Actually, the fact that we ask the question on such a global scale (independent of society, race, language, organized religion, or geography) is an indication that "something's out there." The human race is and always has been longing to close our separation from God. Thanks, Adam n Eve.
How we go about bridging the gap is where religion comes in.

uh oh, I feel a metaphor coming on. I'll fight the urge.

But anyway, I do think the existence of a question proves that there must be an answer. When the question is preprogrammed into us, particularly.

As to the second question, I can't show you that. Only God can show you that. And he won't do it unless you ask (w/open heart, etc.) I repeat, no man or woman can "show" you God on a piece of paper. He walked among us for 33 years and offered proof after proof, and people still turned their backs.

I have a pic of him though. Younger guy, beard, wears a robe. If he came back down today, I think he'd probably blend a little better, but that was the thing back then.

:)

There's a book I just picked up called "Why God Won't Go Away" and it looks to be pretty interesting. It's mostly about the physiology of the religious experience.

As to everyone asking why, wouldn't a similarity of brain structure make that possible as well, since we all have brains? (I know, I know, stick to evidence. But brains have been proven to exist, it's their use that is in question.)

This is interesting. What exactly is a "religious experience"?

I don't have the book with me. I'll quote it when I get home this evening. The guy(s) doing the book appear to lean towards the spiritual side so it's unlikely to be a bashing book.

Edit:

http://www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?...le&titleID=788

From the Book Jacket:

Why have we humans always longed to connect with something larger than ourselves? Why does consciousness inevitably involve us in a spiritual quest? Why, in short, won't God go away? Theologians, philosophers, and psychologists have debated this question through the ages, arriving at a range of contradictory and ultimately unprovable answers. But in this brilliant, groundbreaking new book, researchers Andrew Newberg and Eugene d'Aquili offer an explanation that is at once profoundly simple and scientifically precise: the religious impulse is rooted in the biology of the brain.

Newberg and d'Aquili base this revolutionary conclusion on a long-term investigation of brain function and behavior as well as studies they conducted using high-tech imaging techniques to examine the brains of meditating Buddhists and Franciscan nuns at prayer. What they discovered was that intensely focused spiritual contemplation triggers an alteration in the activity of the brain that leads us to perceive transcendent religious experiences as solid and tangibly real. In other words, the sensation that Buddhists call "oneness with the universe" and the Franciscans attribute to the palpable presence of God is not a delusion or a manifestation of wishful thinking but rather a chain of neurological events that can be objectively observed, recorded, and actually photographed.

The inescapable conclusion is that God is hard-wired into the human brain.

In Why God Won't Go Away, Newberg and d'Aquili document their pioneering explorations in the field of neurotheology, an emerging discipline dedicated to understanding the complex relationship between spirituality and the brain. Along the way, they delve into such essential questions as whether humans are biologically compelled to make myths; what is the evolutionary connection between religious ecstasy and sexual orgasm; what do Near Death Experiences reveal about the nature of spiritual phenomena; and how does ritual create its own neurological environment. As their journey unfolds, Newberg and d'Aquili realize that a single, overarching question lies at the heart of their pursuit: Is religion merely a product of biology or has the human brain been mysteriously endowed with the unique capacity to reach and know God?

Blending cutting-edge science with illuminating insights into the nature of consciousness and spirituality, Why God Won't Go Away bridges faith and reason, mysticism and empirical data. The neurological basis of how the brain identifies the "real" is nothing short of miraculous. This fascinating, eye-opening book dares to explore both the miracle and the biology of our enduring relationship with God.

interesting. let me know how it turns out.

If that's your bag ;)

I'm sure there is a neurological component associated with religious experiences. The harder sell for me is that the brain causes religious experience rather than reacts to it.

If a tree lands on your head, your brain says "Ow." The tree landing on the head was an independent event, however.

A better way of sating may be that religion is a side effect of the brain stucture that produced "feel good" for certain behaviors that enhanced survival.

Spatial disconnect (OOBE), endorphins, seratonin, whatever...

Ahhh, maybe this would help me a lot. I never took a religion class in college, and have often wished I had. Do you (or anyone reading this thread!!) have any recommendations of books or other resources (I only have the web at work, and I already am pushing it as often as I am HERE :)) that kind of give a basic background to different religions etc.? THANKS!

Hoo Boy, this is a topic for a whole 'nother thread... Your brain can say 'ow' even if a tree never touches you. In fact, a phantom pain in amputated limbs is a good real life example of this. So are the hallucinations of scitzophrenics (whoa, murdered the spelling on that one, there should be an h in there somewhere, i know it) and persons on other illegal drugs. I've seen a bi-polar person in a state of mania with hallucinations who believed she was in direct communication with God (and my dead father), and it was an eye opening experience.

Start by reading the holy books themselves. I personally have read the Koran, the Bible, the Talmud (that is a LONG read), the Witches Bible, lots of books by Scott Cunningham, and various other texts like the Book of the Dead. Most of these are available online, in e-format and amazon.com.

There are compendiums of other philosophies (Eastern and African) that you can get, usually at the library. They will give you titles of various holy books of those beliefs and you're off again!

I'm one of those people that buys my books because I make notes in the margins. :D

Before I left Vegas, I had a HUGE 8 foot oak bookshelf filled (sometimes doubled up) with books. Left most of them behind when I moved to NC, tho, or I would mail some to you. :( The rest I packed up and took to my mom's in CA. I'll get out there to pick them up one day...

But yeah. Read the books for yourself, don't just take someone's word for it. There's something to be said for experiencing the scriptures of various cultures for yourself.

For a real basic overview, you can go to beliefnet.org, which has many many many different religious forums and information.

Hmm....why dont i believe in God? Well .....simply put I looked at the available evidence and came to the conclusion that there is no God....having reached that conclusion I don't see a reason to arttificially insert God into my worldview. To me God, Gods , religion and faith are all just ideas which humanity has come up with to deal with questions which science had not yet found answers to. As far as I am concerned science can now make better answers than the bible ever could and leaves little or no room for the supernatural.

Mr Noodle:) I wasnt being aggressive I was being humourous......for me the whole idea of God, Jesus, Shiva, Jehova and zeus all come under the same category as the tooth fairy....that is to say, a pleasant fiction with which we raise our children.
For me, religion is simply a way of seeking comfort , but having decided that there is no God ( I cannot emphasise that point enough....I dont simply "not believe in God, rather I "know" there is no God, in much the same way as a Christian "knows" there is one.) it seems a hollow comfort at best.

I really do think Marx's view of religion as the opiate of the masses holds true. I choose not to delude myself with that opiate

Hmm....why dont i believe in God? Well .....simply put I looked at the available evidence and came to the conclusion that there is no God....having reached that conclusion I don't see a reason to arttificially insert God into my worldview. To me God, Gods , religion and faith are all just ideas which humanity has come up with to deal with questions which science had not yet found answers to. As far as I am concerned science can now make better answers than the bible ever could and leaves little or no room for the supernatural.

For me, religion is simply a way of seeking comfort , but having decided that there is no God ( I cannot emphasise that point enough....I dont simply "not believe in God"; rather I "know" there is no God, in much the same way as a Christian "knows" there is one.) it seems a hollow comfort at best.

I really do think Marx's view of religion as the opiate of the masses holds true. I choose not to delude myself with that opiate

Mr Noodle:) I wasnt being aggressive I was being humorous......for me the whole idea of God, Jesus, Shiva and Jehova all come under the same category as the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus....that is to say, a pleasant fiction with which we raise our children.

Dana, since you believe there is no God, I have some questions for you.

1) It appears from your posts you believe science has the answers. Would you consider yourself a person who believes in the evolutionary theory as origin of man?

2) Do you consider yourself a "good" person or a "bad" person? How can you tell? Where did you establish your moral code? What makes a person good or bad in your view? What actions are good and bad in your view?

3) Do you have any concept of afterlife? Do you have a soul? If so, What happens to it when you die? If not, what makes each person unique?

I think I'll take a stab at these after DanaC does.

and when you're done, i want to try something. it might fizzle, it might be a good time. since i believe the bible can answer any question regarding faith, i'm going to try to argue from a strictly biblical standpoint and see what happens. there are several really good online bibles now.

Starting with:

Matt. 16:1-4 -- "The Pharisees and Sadducees came to put Jesus to the test. They asked him to show them a miraculous sign from heaven. He replied, "In the evening you look at the sky. You say, 'It will be good weather. The sky is red.' And in the morning you say, 'Today it will be stormy. The sky is red and cloudy.' You know the meaning of what you see in the sky. But you can't understand the signs of what is happening right now. An evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But none will be given to them except the sign of Jonah."

Then Jesus left them and went away. "