I'm afraid, LJ, that this is a classic case of differing viewpoints. I don't really find Mari's posts to be offensive. Does she expect too much from Society? Maybe. But, people speak from their hearts. The contents of people's hearts differ. The levels of people's tolerance for varying degrees and forms of expression differ as well.

Mari suffered a life-changing misfortune, and she tells us how she feels about it. If she's out slogging through the snow delivering phone books, then I can scarcely feel that she's not doing what she can to make the best of it, so I tend to read what she has to say, and don't let it bother me if it is at times seems to me to be whiny or whatever. After all, I'm not brain-injured, delivering phone books, and if I was, who knows what I'd say about things?

Even so, perhaps I have a different view of such circumstances, since I am the parent of a disabled, brain-injured adult child. Maybe I see things differently because I know how difficult the System is, how much tap-dancing you have to do just to get the most meager of subsistence income and keep it. I have firsthand experience with the spirit-crushing rejection that a disabled person can face trying to retain the most meager of jobs, of being unable to afford much of anything, ever. I see daily the loneliness and ostracization suffered by my son because he talks funny, thinks poorly, and is embittered and angry much of the time.

You, on the other hand, may have a lower tolerance for this sort of thing. At least, you do here on The Cellar. I'm sure you are a generous and sympathetic person IRL. So - perhaps Mari's view of the world isn't as positive as that of others, and perhaps she, too, judges the world differently, more harshly, more bitterly. Maybe her expressions of her worldview offend you because you haven't walked a mile in her proverbial shoes?

Or maybe not. Maybe we're all just whiners in the end, spoiled American losers who would have been dead ten years ago in a less prosperous land. And maybe we should all just shut up and like it.

I've often thought about having my son join The Cellar, but honestly, I didn't want to see him beaten up here...and he would be, for much the same reasons as you dislike Mari's postings. The Cellar is too edgy a place, and has too definite a limit for personal strife and the expressions thereof.

Or maybe I'm just a wishy-washy pussy...who knows?

LOL I argue with everyone, so don't feel all special and getting a big head n stuff, ya big non-car selling car salesman.

spode, i don;t think you're hearing me. her disability has nothing to do with it. i just am not forgiving her for annoying me because of it. i would be just as annoyed if she were perfectly healthy and constantly harped on some other point. do you suggest that I should treat her differently than i would anyone else? It's not like i pick on her because she had/has CO poisoning. I'm sure she was just as fucked up before it happened. renting from your mom with a roomate is not exactly indicitive of a highly productive contributor to society like she claims to have been. sorry if i offend your sensiblities, and sorry to have exposed you to negative reading material, but damn.

Like I said, differing viewpoints, differing levels of tolerance - and different interpretations of content. I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure it means the same thing to me as it does to you somehow. I read what Mari writes, and I clearly don't get the same things out of it that you do.

Viva individuality!

Man, all this reminds me of this guy that used to be here...he was a lot like Jim. And this guy did something to another Dwellar not unlike what Jim is doing to Mari. And you know, it was right around this time last year...

Delurking again to post News Flash from trendy southern California: Fights on the playground as a form of entertainment are passe' after age 5. The hip 6 year old pulls the wings off flies in his spare moments.

From what I can tell, Mari, you appear to be living on some sort of government hand out program at the moment and want to get off it. Well, good for you! I for one would stand up and cheer if more welfare recipients would post asking for job advice and take their hands out out of my pocketbook. What the hell, send the outfit a resume and a suitably snappy cover letter. It's just some charity, for God's sake - we're not talking about an executive position with a Fortune 500 Company. They might just jump at the chance to hire you because it will make THEM look good, practice what you preach, blah, blah, blah.

Remind me to never post anything personal on this board. I'd rather slash a vein and go swim with the sharks off Malibu beach. At least some hot young life guard might come rescue me.

Elspode, sorry to hear about your kid, dude. Sometimes life really sucks. Hope things work out for him and you, as well.

LJ, you amuse me, but I have to say that you are very boring on this topic. Even someone like me who has been around only a few months, mostly lurking, gets the picture already that you despise Marichiko. It's old news. Go in for a nice long session with your shrink, smoke some good weed, finance or sell or whatever the hell it is you do with cars and MOVE ON. Get over it. You whine more than Marichiko does and that's saying something. And please, the string of obscenities that you seem to enjoy using with your every other reply, indicate only a man with a limited vocabulary and an even more limited thought process. I deal with enough people like that in real life. They're called wanna-be ocean front property buyers who make 10K a year and have defaulted on about $100,000 in debts and want to sue ME because they can't get a bank loan.

Next topic.

and what does jumping into the middle of a "playground fight" while stating that you wouldn't want to post any personal information that the 'sharks' might try to feed on say about ones thought processes?
and would you pease illuminate my 'strings of obscenities in my every other reply' to me? i went back a bit, and could only find pussy, bitch, fucking, and fuck. but they were used in context and well dispersed among several posts. a string of obscenities is more like this:

" why don't you shut the fuck up and stay out of shit that doesn't concern your cum swallowing, asshole eating, father fisting self?" see?

all we need now is to hear from tw on my emotional state. gah

And so we return to April. LJ did same to her. Interesting is why. April's problems were irrelevant to him. His emotions remain more important. He attacked her unmercifully only because HE did not like what she posted. Its all about his emotions. Screw Mari who properly posted for a 'sounding board' response. LJ's response is first and foremost about HIS emotions.

Real men don't care whether they like a person. They don't care whether they dislike the post or its purpose. Real men could just ignore the post. Real men don't think emotionally as LJ has demonstrated. Like a character from Jerry Springer, LJ must attack Marichiko.

Lumberjim thrives by attacking those he does not like; when he senses a weakness. Lumberjim 'the man' would have ignored her. There is nothing offensive in her posts as others have properly noted. But Lumberjim 'the boy' must attack her anyway - like it was a playground - for reasons only a child could understand.

Dar512 also demonstrates how a man replies: Marichiko - grant writing is about learning to write what they want to see. Easier when you have experience. But the job does not necessarily require experience. It requires someone who can quickly comprehend the system and write accordingly. No one is going to admit that in a job posting. They will be looking as to whether you can 'spin' the request as the grantor wants. IOW they want a quick learner; experience being secondary. They will look at your cover letter to learn how well you 'spin' - write what they want to hear. Go for the job and ignore those who need gratification by attacking others when they sense weakness.

Reposted because it applies again: Barak would have loved playing Lumberjim. Some boys remain boys long after they were suppose to become men. There was nothing offensive in Marichiko's post. But his response was an insult to men - just like those Springer characters.

You forgot "treehugging," which should be inserted in between wishy-washy and pussy. ;) ;)

Love you, bro.

BB

(I think we just need to lighten up some. Yes, even me. I will try to do so after the dust settles from the dead guy in the nuthouse tonight. I didn't do it.)

This thread needs to star in a snuff film.

I'm not going to jump in on the "LJ is an asshole" theme of this thread, because I've been the target of such a thread in the past, and it sucks. LJ, I know whe've had our differences, but can I give some advice? Just ignore Mari, ignore me, and ignore everyone else you hate here. Trust me, it makes life in the Cellar a lot more pleasant. There 's a few people here I can't stand, so I avoid them like the plague. Give it a shot man, it works. OK, I'm done. Feel free to call me cunt now :)

Then why the snide "miss poor me" remark? Didn't sound very compassionate to me.

Good idea, because I would fucking roast your ass to ashes if you did. And are you saying that Mari ASKED for CO poisoning? And it doesn't rule HER life???? Whoa...quite telling IMO.

Soooo...just because YOU assumed (because of your obvious hatred of her) that she wanted attention, then it MUST be so, right?

Oh never fucking mind...I mean you are not FORCED to read what Mari writes, you know. :rolleyes:

AH...

this is actually the heart of the matter. ignoring her and those like her won;t make it better. If I give her shit, and it makes her think twice about posting useless look at me threads, .....that works. people like to refer to the self policing nature of the cellar......well, how do you expect that to happen if no one has the balls to call someone out when they act like a ninny? the software won;t do it.....Tony can't. dave is gone, FnF aint here.......sycamore is too lazy to be honest about how he really fells about her, blah blah blah. I think beestie is right. i have made my point. i have taken my lumps. I'm not even going to reply to tw (except to remind him that cucumbers are on sale at the acme).

peace. i'll leave marichiko alone if you guys enjoy her posts so much. i just think it's a shame that I appear to be in the minority.
talk to you later.

I seriously doubt that you have even the slightest idea what it's like to be in Mari's shoes...shoes by the way, she didn't ask to fill. And yes, neither do I know what it's like to be her, and in her exact situation. BUT, I DO know what it's like to have been put in a situation that I certainly didn't ask for, and to have various feelings about it.

I basically only mention my kidney failure if I feel the need to have to explain the "why" of something. And since renal failure has pretty much taken over my life, then I *may* mention it more times than someone else would. Oh well, it happens. And Mari may mention her situation more times than people would like to care read...again, OH WELL. No one here is being forced to read a damn thing if they chose not to.

Basically Jim, it all boils down to this:

"Unless you are walking in my shoes,
You don't have the right to map out my route."
Dr. George Keller

Period. :eyebrow:

*always on the lookout for another clever sig. line!*^^

Bravo on all of your points in your response! :thumbsup: :thumbsup::

RHO.....i said i DIDN'T give you any crap over it. mainly because you used to not annoy me. you;re starting to now, though. why don't you just stop now? I have no interest in getting into it with you. you don;t post enough to be annoying regardless of how I feel about it.

I know that it may not carry much weight, and while I don't agree with him in how he handles it, but I have to join the Lumberjim camp on this point.

Her posts are generally commiserative pablum or complaining.

There are self-help and support groups out there that would provide a much more supportive environment.

She does provide the occasional witticism or insight but it is overshadowed by the maudlin nature of her posts.

A reserved disdain is more my style, but LJ isn't alone.

*dons flame-retardent suit, hands LJ his spare*

Originally posted by LumberjimWhiskey and cheap cigar smoke all over my monitor.

You want to get into the reletive value of people's posts TS? Glass house.

Men don't care. Only men who never grew up let another's post annoy them. If it annoys you, then ignore it - be a man. The only thing a man is concerned with are facts.

Speaking of facts, I checked. Cucumbers are not on sale. Why would you lie?

Damn..well said. :thumbsup:

I've only noticed you disparaging my posts...

Also, my posts are generally aimed at expanding the perspective of an issue or asking for clarifications so as to expand my knowledge and reasoning skills.

I come here for the intellectual input, yours included, not for warm fuzzy feel good homilies and specious platitudes.

I don't think anyone could accuse mari of being limited to warm fuzzy feel good homilies. Nor would I accuse her, or Rho of being dominated by their respective disabilities. frankly, it gives them both different perspectives to a lot of us, I personally welcome that. I'm sure everyone here has their advocates and detractors, the only person who has in any way any right to say whether someone is 'right' for cellar or not and unless I'm greatly mistaken, UT abdicated, wisely, that power for general purposes a while back.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Not necessarily. What is useless and what is not varies from person to person. You used to post a lot of stuff that many thought was clever and funny, but I found to be stupid and uninteresting.

Like uselessness, "ninnyness" varies from person to person. I personally don't have a problem with Mari. She irritates on occasion, but no worse than most. UT has not had a problem banning people he thinks are a problem before, so I don't see what is stopping him now, if this is indeed a problem to him. FNF was a twit with no personality who I'd rank 3rd on my All-Cellar Retard Team. And Dave jumped ship over something rather trivial.

I don't know what your deal is, Jim. It seems to me like you are aspiring to become Dave, even though you will never ever get there because you just don't have the skills. Not to mention, you don't post that much anymore, and Mari has never done anything to you or your buddies...at least that I've seen.

And you were the one that completely melted down over HB's post...now look at you. You're just like him now...congratulations!

I think that the big issue here is the heat that LJ is taking for bitching and moaning about marichiko bitching and moaning. He and others are annoyed by the apparent willingness of some to tolerate hers while being intolerant of his equal right to not be silent about it.

I know, and I didn't say that you did.

Jim: Calm down..and read carefully...please.

I was defending Mari's right to post what she wants to post here and your right to not read it if it's so bad and horrible for you to read, that's all *shrugs*


Peace.

Bitching and moaning is in the eye of the beholder. :D

I certainly don't see Mari's posts as "moaning" as it is more "expressing feelings and thoughts". Maybe it's because I can relate, to certain degrees. And Elspode said it best in his reply:

http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php...3&page=5&pp=15

Guess I'm just a believer in people with medical conditions have the right to say what they want, however they want *shrugs*.

Guess I'm just a believer in people without medical conditions have the right to say what they want, however they want *shrugs*.

Hey, you know what? If the board OWNER has no problem with it, then so be it!

Jaguar wrote:
However, it's STILL UT's board (even if he did abdicate his power, he still OWNS IT and therefore, can take back that power).

Look, we can all agree to disagree, but no one is forcing anyone to read any particular post/thread, etc.

I hate to butt into other people's pissing matches, but i want to argee with some of the sentiments that the 'feel' of the cellar has changed over time. That's part of the coolness IMHO.
Please remember that everyone here has the right to post their opinions, feelings, and the (hopefully fully checked) facts to back them up. I definately find some posts whiney, rude, stupid etc but I try to keep in mind when i read them that I am not perfect either, and i take into consideration the incredible variation in age, edcucation, and life experiences of all of the cellerites. This would be a really freaking boring place if we were all the same. If you're too lazy to be a bit empathetic to others, 1) ignore 'em and don't tell me about it, or 2) stop participating in this community. I like to hear opinions/feeling from those in other places in their lives, either because of age, illness, divorce, or loss of job, (and the good stuff too!). Even tho I may not be there right now, it could be me at any moment, and i need to be considerate of others who might not be where they want to be.

that is all.

somehow i think Jim is sitting back laughing pretty hard at how stirred up everyone got. in fact, i'm having a hard time not laughing at it, because this is all pretty ridiculous. while some of you know eachother IRL, this remains the internet. it is amazing that people are getting so emotionally charged on what really amounts to a big "I don't like you" fest. let's face it - Jim has gotten you all going. he is a masterful feces stirrer.

i think the speed with which everyone was willing to draw sides on this issue is evidence that the cellar hasn't had any really good "issues" thread in awhile. it's time to burn off some of our energy we've saved up for arguments, apparently.

Reserved disdain works for me. At least that shows the person has a little class. :cool: So when it comes to me, you can leave off the flame retardant suit. That thing must get awfully stuffy if you have to wear it often.

I hardly consider The Cellar to be a support group, BTW. The first time I started posting here I got involved in a big fight with everybody, so it's hardly the warm, fuzzy glow which keeps me around.

I find it interesting that this has all started over a post where I stated that I feel my situation has improved enough for me to attempt some sort of meaningful work again and I asked the "intelligent" members of the cellar to give me some input from a professional point of view.

I have recieved intelligent and supportive input from many of you. A few chose to call my post more "whining." *shrugs* Whatever. If you were to go back and look at the old threads you might notice that after that first big argument with you all, I have mostly written of my situation because some other poster decided to shove my nose in it again and wouldn't let up until I replied.

I'm not so spineless that I'm going to attempt to tailor my posts to make every last person who reads them happy, and I have no problem telling someone when I disagree with what they post; nor do I have a problem when someone disagrees with me. I do have a problem with people who resort to name calling, obscenities, and generally incoherant replies. I have little respect for this because it shows both a lack of intelligence and a lack of integrity on the part of the person making such replies. They can certainly say what they want, but I don't have to respect them, either.

You have never responded to my posts in the above manner for all your apparant disdain for me, and I respect you for that.

Oh I'm not denying that, I'm just pointing out at least noone else has the right to say whether someone is 'right' for cellar.

Which is another way to say that jim is a troll with little constructive input.

Quite right. That's what I was saying...perhaps in a not so direct way. :p Sorry. I was just using what you previously wrote. S'all good. :D

Well-said...I agree 100%! :thumbsup:

that's it. you're not my bitch anymore.

as for constructive input, you can input your finger in your ass. :)

tshirt, cd thing, gobs and gobs of laughing people.

I rest my case.

good job, perry mason.

It only takes one "Oh shit" to offset a hundred "Atta boy"s.

Jag 100, LJ 0 :boxers:

:beer:

ok. i rest mine, too. i gotta get back to work. this has been fun. just like the old days. I'll catch you guys and nitwits later.

Don't strain your arm patting yourself on the back, okay?

LS, this is extremely weak moderation on my behalf, and pretty much anyone can come around and say anything they want unless it's intolerably irritating. The hope is that people will come up with good things to say regardless.

FWIW I'm with James on this one. Any relatively open forum is going to fill up with crap if people let it. From time to time a "true" attention whore such as April comes around, and I will let such situations linger whilst we figure out whether we can do anything gracious for them, such as reforming them with a series of complaints.

Mari is certainly not at that level, but she's trying hard. She annoys me, but my opinion is worth about the same as all y'alls on that point.

Marichiko 0, LJ 100

This is YOUR board, UT and it's YOUR dime. I would not retire so tamely from the field in different circumstances, but you're the boss here and as far as I'm concerned you have just served me with due warning. If you prefer posters like LJ to hang out here over someone like me, than I HAVE been posting on the wrong board. The management sets the tone of an establishment and I am definitely declasse' in this one.

It's been great talking to almost all of you and I wish you all well.

Mari - don't get too melodramatic on this one. UT didn't tell you to shut up or get out. he simply said your posts irritate him at times. let's face it, we all irritate each other to varying degrees at different times. show of hands - anybody here just get glassy eyed with frustration when tw and i get into our occasional urination battles? (you can all put your hands down now).

until UT pulls the plug you are free to annoy or amuse to your heart's content. maybe i'm wrong but i think the value in the cellar is that we are all welcome here even when we are annoying.

let's see, we have:

LJ- he's annoying when he only shows up to stir the pot, and really annoying when someone flips his instant a$$hole switch. (religion)

Mari - she's annoying when she starts talking about the downtrodden or anything to do with the military.

Jag - he's a flaming liberal and decidedly anti-american. (damn foreigner)

tw - if he were any more liberal he would burst into flames.

Radar - no, no i can't think of anything that radar does that is annoying.

wolf and slang - well, hell, they are always shooting people

garnet - she lashes out in her own little form of poopstirring.

UT - what isn't annoying about an absolute rock god?

and me - i voice an opinion on every issue and usually two, and i usually take a thread 2 days past it's death.

what i'm trying to say is SHUT THE HELL UP ALREADY! it's the cellar, we annoy each other, blah blah blah. let's argue about something worthwhile - like how you think the new fat albert movie is going to do at the box office.

How sad that we've lost another person (just like we lost Brianna). And none of the new people ever stick around for more than one or two posts. :yelsick:

that is nothing new, garnet. if you haven't noticed we are still new people. pull up the old threads and see how many names you recognize. people come and are really active for awhile then get bored, or annoyed, or busy and move on. most people tend to come back when the prozac kicks in or they see a thread worth contributing to.

when there aren't really interesting threads to elicit discussion we end up with this thread - just pointless arguing for the sake of posting.

New cellar tagline -

The Cellar - Shut Up and Pay Attention, We Eat People Like You for Lunch

While I always appreciate an opportunity to support The Cellar, I wouldn't cite the T-Shirt effort with a lot of prominence...some of us didn't get one...or two...or four.

And no, I *still* don't want my money back. :cool:

That's a huge bummer Elspode, I wish the t-shirt guy hadn't been such a fuck up, I didn't get a couple of mine either. But Jim put a lot of work and time into organizing the whole thing, gratis, and the cellar did profit from the endeavor- he did his part and then some.

I like and dislike various people here just like everyone, although I don't truly get pissed at anyone. The difference is that somehow when I say it, it's supposed to be more meaningful. It isn't. Unless someone is truly messing up the community in some way, how I feel about them has no bearing on whether they should or should not be here.

In fact, the whole place has meant different things to me personally at different times, but when it's not particularly as interesting as usual, I just bypass threads and wait until it IS more interesting.

I have put a good deal of money into it, but when the recent hardware problems arose, people were generous enough to contribute enough to repay all of the money I spent on the problems, and to start well on the way to getting the system its own dedicated hardware. My big outlay is in time, but hey it's a hobby.

(I like all the oldtimers, which pretty much includes everyone here more than a year, so please don't nobody go getting all paranoid on me)

so what you are saying is that you hate all of us that have been here for less than one year? i can read between the lines and get what you mean. what's that? you want us all to spontaneously combust if we don't drown in a pool of our own vomit first???

damn, that is harsh UT, i really didn't think you would stoop that low.

He's on such a power trip with this place. It's disgusting really.

That's it, you two are banned.

I'm bummed that I didn't make lookout's list...

As a result, the Cellar is constantly changing. Change is necessary. Not just going from a BBS to the internet. For example, how many remember Ghost - an openly acknolwedged gay kid who was brutally attacked for defending his rights. Of (I forgot his name) who wrote some great porn.

A simple rule for any healthy community: personal attack without logical reasoning is taboo. Where, pray tell, is anyone annoying? No one. Not even Lumberjim. Even when lookout123 labels me a liberal, it is his opinion and (from my perspective) is not a personal attack. What he perceives as liberal - anything that is not right wing extremist. At least his flawed logic is understandable. Perspective. I believe he truly believes he is a centrist. He is misguided. But that is a logical conclusion - from my perspective. IOW to be an decent human, first look at how HE perceives things. Emotion has no place in decision - except at the very end to judge whether the logical conclusion makes sense.

What has changed? Every so often, one will post crap - insult another without any factual basis. Lumberjim openly acknowledges why he attacks marichiko. She annoys him. So what? Logic has nothing to do with his conclusions. He is venomous when he uses only emotion to jusitify his conclusions.

As UT once said, this board is not for 17 year olds. Why? Boys and girls let emotions override their logic. Not acceptable from adults. Unfortunately Lumberjim who had stopped posting emotionally (since his personal attacks on April) has returned to his mistaken ways.

Again, enemy of this community are those who post pure emotion unsupported by any logical reasoning.

Let's not forget the original post. Marichiko was simply asking for advise. Nothing she posted should have caused emotion in any adult. There was no whining - if you had read logically. If it bothered you as it bothered Lumberjim, then you have two actions. First you should not reply. Second, you should deal with your mental weaknesses - letting emotion (the head between your legs) override your logic (the head between your shoulders).

OK, UT, so Mari annoys you. Fair enough...at least you expressed it without being venomous this time. So, how would you explain your blow-up last week with the whole Communism argument (which you took out on at least 3 people)? If it is was just a rough day, hey, I understand. But that seemed rather out of character for you.

now this is the way to start a good argument, i mean discussion. tw, FWIW i just threw you in there because everyone has witnessed our pissing matches. i don't view myself as a centrist. i'm right of center on most issues. just as you are not a centrist either - you are to the left on most issues. that doesn't make you wrong and me right - we just have different priorities based on our respective world views.

sorry man, i could have gone on and on and... just trying to make a point and release a little pressure in the cellar.