what dollar amount did the people you are ranting against here pay into the tax coffers last year?

this is nothing but a rant against people who have what you don't. when there is talk of a tax system overhaul such as a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more - who lobbies against it. it isn't the wealthy. it is the blue collar folks who are being advised by their labor organizations and their local politicians who are being paid by lobbiests for cpa and attorney groups that rally against it.

I put money from every paycheck into a 401k, just like I should. Is that the answer you're looking for? The money I put into Social Secuity will be spent by the time I retire. I'm not relying on it, trust me.

You seem to ignore the fact that people retiring today have their savings PLUS social security. My mom has a bit of savings, and gets something like $1,200 a month in SS. She's not hurting. Calculate that $1,200 into 2035 dollars and see how much that is that people my age won't be getting.

and that is ok. social security wasn't meant to last forever and it wasn't meant to pay as many people as it does for as long as it does.
they are going to have to raise the ss eligibility age to even give it a chance at surviving but good luck to the politician who puts his name on that bill.



believe it or not - not every comment is intended to draw you into a fight. it was simply a question. your 401K and your Roth are the cornerstones of your retirement. if you are not taking full advantage of these options you are really missing the boat. yes, i understand that budget constraints do exist. but if at all possible everyone should fund these 2 items at least, even if only $25 monthly goes into the Roth to start. planning for your retirement is more about habit than it is dollar amounts.

The grunt worker from the past is satisfied because he worked for a company that worked for him. I'm flipping through an old sociology text, and the phrase is Social Contract...it's what Henry Ford meant when he reasoned that his workers would buy his automobiles if he made sure they could afford them. It's what Ken Lay violated when he raped so many people of their retirement savings. It's the idea that someone can start working for a company in the mail room at 16 years old, stick with that same company all his life, and retire comfortably from a good position. It's a faith that the people you work for are looking out for your best interests, and not just how to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of you while paying you just enough to make sure that you can't get a better deal elsewhere. It's common fucking decency amongst employers, and it disappeared somewhere in the 80s.

My question to you is what makes you think that the grunt worker of the past was delirious with joy at the beginning of every new 10 hour work day? Ever read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?

Nobody ever talks about a flat tax that would cause the wealthy to pay more. When a flat tax is talked about (in politics), it is pushed by the obscenely wealthy, like Forbes, because the way it would be formulated would drastically decrease their tax liability, and they wouldn't even have to cheat with accountants or donate to charity to do it.

oh.my God.I just want to learn sth more about the American Dream cause I am not an American ,and I often met this word when I read books on American culture or background.I didn't expect to bring about a debate or argument among you on such a topic.Anyway,thank you all very much,I like the atmosphere here

Hey, no problem. This group will debate anything at the drop of a hat. I imagine it must have been something of a surprise for a new comer, though. We all thought you were just some school kid trying to get us to write a homework assignment for him. Stick around. You should read us go at it when we REALLY get worked up. ;)

I can't give you the particular statistic you asked for, but I can give you the following:
Over the past three years, special interest groups pushed through Congress $2 trillion dollars in tax cuts – almost all tilted towards the wealthiest people in the country. These include:
Cuts in taxes on the largest incomes.
Cuts in taxes on investment income.
And cuts in taxes on huge inheritances.
More than half of the benefits are going to the wealthiest one percent.

Last May Congress approved new tax credits for children. Not for poor
children, however. But for families earning as much as $309,000 a
year—families that already enjoy significant benefits from earlier tax cuts.

My source for the above is the same one I cited earlier.

Your assertion that the blue collar worker has opposed attempts to set a flat rate tax in the past, if true, only goes to prove my point that we have all allowed ourselves to become brainwashed to all common sense and the reality of what's really happening in this country.

The crucial paradox of the American Dream is that it is relative.

One person may see a nice riverside cottage with pigs and chickens as their Dream.
The next may see a three story Malibu mansion with a wife and six girlfriends as theirs.

The point is, you will never achieve it for as long as you possess the mentality of achievement. Let me tell you something. Your achievements mean nothing, because one day, you're going to die. Your cars and your clothes and your millions mean nothing.

I hope you realise this before you go chasing a dream that can never be caught. It keeps you working hard. That's why it was created. So go back to your job and work hard, earn some money, live your life. But don't do it for yourself in the sense that it will add to your accumulation of experience/power/wealth/knowledge. Do it because you need money to eat and to feed your family.

I don't, mari, that's my whole point. That was the dichotomy that garnet seemed to be espousing. I think all grunt workers of all eras are sometimes unsatisfied with their jobs, but I believe that both then and today they have the opportunity to make a better life for themselves if they want to take it. I don't believe the American Dream is dead.

Echo, the main idea behind the American Dream is that everyone has an opportunity to succeed, regardless of who their parents were or how little they started out with.

clodfobble has summarized it all very well.

National health care?
Most health care is required because of our own stupidity not some plague. Most of the people in the hospital were not blindsided by a disease out of the blue, but stupid accidents and in many cases preventable conditions. The people that Brianna mentioned, with roaches and crap all over the house, will probably get sick, eventually. Same for the germaphobics that try to sterilize their world. Don't force me to bear the burden of your foolish choices.

These robber barons are robbing you blind? STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH THEM!!
You piss and moan about how they make everything overseas, but you keep buying the stuff. By “you” I mean everybody.
If you’re not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
They do this because you let them, but you’re so damned wrapped up in buying more shit you don’t need and will be paying the trash man to haul away shortly, you don’t see what you’re doing to the future of this country.

I’m not talking about someday, I’m talking about the next 10 years, 5 years, it’s already started and YOU are the only one that can turn this around.
YOU can convince them in the marketplace, at the interface between the robber baron and yourself.....the cash register.
You don’t have to deprive yourself or your family, just shop smarter. And yes, you can still buy everything you NEED, made right here, with very few exceptions.

The robber barons are like kin folk, slap half of them up side the head and the rest will pay attention. :smack:

I agree with you. But have you tried to go to even places like all-American Wal-Mart and find stuff you need that ISN'T made in China, Bangladesh or Mexico? I'm not someone who's into shopping or having lots of "stuff" just for the sake of it. Yes, you can buy products made only in America if you have copius amounts of time to go track them down. I've tried, and it's not that easy.

People who live in their own filth and object when people tell them this is not a good thing are not something it is possible to work with.

Actually, we are not. There is a lot of interdependence, but it is by no means universal.

And he'll demand to be paid then, so why should you pay him now? If he becomes a doctor, are you going to tell him "My taxes put your ungrateful ass through school, so I'm not paying my medical bill".

Easy for you to say, since you aren't paying it. For me, it's about $3000/year, and it only goes up.

The poor don't pay income taxes, so its no surprise they have fewer tax breaks. Of course, there IS the Earned Income Tax Credit, which they take. As for the wealthy, they pay for their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzling cars (built, BTW, by much poorer people) and their exclusive gated communities; they aren't taking from me by doing so.

All-American WalMart? They're public enemy #1!!!!!!! They have done more to contribute to the decline in America, than all foreign companies combined. They are a bigger boon to China than rice. They've put more Americans out of work than automation.
Read this or this or this or This one to see how they operate.
When you're done, I can give you a hundred more. All-American, feh. :rolleyes:

I personally think Wal-Mart sucks, too (for many reasons besides the fact that they have cost so many Americans their jobs--but that's a whole other thread!). But you know, people are going to say "hey, that's capitalism" and continue to shop there. When is it going to get to the point where say enough is enough? Interesting articles, by the way.

Even without the political overtones...capitalism or no...people are gonna shop there because it's convenient, cheap and you can usually find, if not exactly what you need, something close to what you need. Despite the inherent evil of Walmart, it does fill a need that a lot of people want.

One stop on the way home from work and you can pick up the photos, grab that new CD, get that SpongeBob Tshirt the kid is harping for, a new watch because you got a raise, a couple of frozen pizzas, some milk, some fruit because you ate the last banana this morning...etc...etc...

??????? To which group do you refer and under what circumstances and what reputable source do you have to back such a statement? Sounds like thinly veiled prejudice to me.


Give me a single example of the person who lives in America today as an island, complete in himself. Did you flip on a light switch at any time in the past 24 hours? If so then you are interconnected with the engineer who runs the computer at the power company, making sure the lines don't become over-loaded. You are interconnected with the utilities worker who strung the electric wiring on the poles to your home or office. You are interconnected with the logger who cut down the trees to make those poles. You are interconnected with the factory worker who made the cables the electricity runs through. If your local power plant is run by coal, you are interconnected with the miner who got that coal from the ground, the train engineer who drove the coal train on the railroad tracks to your city. You are interconnected to the men who laid down those tracks. This is only a single example. Russoto, you seem like a smart guy. Stop and think. We ALL "interbe."


That one's a no-brainer. I pay taxes for education so that down the road there WILL be doctors and other professionals and trained craftsman who I can look up in the yellow pages and call for whatever it is that I need and pay them a fair price for the work they do for me. Were there no schools, the yellow pages would be blank.



What makes you think I'm not paying it? At the moment I'm paying rent, and you'd better believe that the landlord passes along the cost of property taxes to his renters. And in the past I owned my own home which I paid property taxes on. If you don't like paying $3,000 a year, why don't you go buy a less expensive house in a poorer neighborhood? Its a free country. No one is forcing you to live where properrty taxes are that high. Everyone seems to forget that I worked for close to 30 years of my life and paid income taxes just like everybody else. The money I now get is MY OWN, paid into the system over a life time of work.



Oh, really? Low income people everywhere will be delighted to hear this. Perhaps you should make this astonishing news of government largesse more widely known to the world. A single person who earned over $7,000 a year was required to pay income tax in 2003. The Federal guidelines for the poverty level is anyone living on less than $9,310.00 a year. That means that people living in poverty are required taxes, so what's this "the poor don't pay taxes"? This display of ignorance on your part is apalling. And I presume that you noblely take no advantage of any possible tax breaks yourself since you seem to begrudge that person living below the poverty line taking advantage of the earned income tax credit.

Guess I'm in the wrong field. I have 13 years of experience as office manager for three different multimillion dollar construction firms, and I make $36k. If I'd started at Jack in the Box 13 years ago, I'd probably be pulling down 100K by now, huh?

I don't shop at Walmart because everyone sues them (women, Latin American's) so I figure they are evil.

I don't shop there but I really, really want to!

i've got a couple of clients in the position who are getting in excess of $65K. so no you probably wouldn't be getting $100, unless you went the career path of district management, etc. elspode, at any point in the last 13 years has another opportunity with the potential for growth or more money come across your path? like i said before if money was your definition of success you probably would have chased the other opportunities. hopefully, money isn't your life's motivation.

wait now. in a thread earlier this year, several cellarites stepped up and said they paid $0 taxes last year.

Heh! For some things, I have to (sometimes, clothes..depending on what it is). I need cost friendly items. So I really am not caring about the whole politics of Walmart. I am going to shop where I can afford to shop...period. I don't have the energy to go looking around for places to shop and I am certainly not going out of my way (i.e. across town, etc.) just to shop.
:thumbsdn:

Sure, and not a single one of them did so because, bottom line, they were living on incomes of less than $7,000.00 a year. Some of them may have used some tricks with smoke and mirrors to make it look that way to the Feds, but if they were gut level honest, they'd admit they made more than $583.00/month. Let's get real here.

Those who evaded paying any income tax at all, are quite frankly parasites. Let's call a spade a spade. They drove on interstates they paid nothing to maintain. They were protected by soldiers whose salary they refused to pay, even as these men were laying down their lives for their country which included those individuals who wouldn't pay their taxes. Just a couple of examples to think about.

mari - what should the cutoff be for a person to start having to pay taxes and at what percentage should they pay?
and lets keep in mind that the person who makes $7K/annual isn't living on that $7k alone. their are a few gov't programs available. food stamps, medical, housing. it all adds up. nobody denies that there really are poor people living in america - but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available.

Is that a realistic idea for most low-income people? When you move somewhere, you have to find a place to live, which requires first month's rent, security deposit, etc. Someone who's living on the poverty line most likely doesn't have that kind of cash laying around. If she were to go to a more "prosperous" location, I guarantee the rent would cost significantly more than what she's already paying. That money just doesn't fall out of the sky.

i don't know. i know it isn't realistic for some people because they aren't willing to stick their neck out that far for fear of the unknown and the what-ifs. which is understandable. all i know is that if moving up in life (whatever that means to each individual) is important enough to a person they can accomplish it. there are a million things that might prevent a person from succeeding, but only one thing guarantees failure - and that is the decision not to try. it is in human nature to hold on to what we have and complain about how pitiful it is rather than risk losing it for the chance of gaining more.

OK, I'll take you up on that. Say someone lives in a small-ish town and makes just enough to get by--they live paycheck to paycheck (as many people do) and cannot afford to save anything. They want to get a better job and move to a more prosperous place or a bigger city where there are more opportunities. They have the will and the ambition to move on, but no funds to back it up. How do you specifically suggest that they proceed at that point?

they probably couldn't do it over night, but if the goal is important enough to them they can put away a couple of dollars from their current job so that soon they can do it. does this person have a tv? stereo? anything of relative value they may not need in order to start over?

by the way - i did start over a few years ago after a relationship went south. i was in a $25K/annual job with no hope for upward mobility. i quit there and sacked out at in an aquaintance's storage area. (pretty uncomfortable with 110 degree AZ heat) i stayed in there for six weeks until i could get into an apartment. i had no furniture, just my clothes and some dishes. i sold my stereo, tv, bass, and amp to pay the 1st month rent. i started a 100% commission job with good potential (i had no experience in the area, i bluffed my way through the interview) and went from there.

i now live quite comfortably.


edit: my point is that if i can do it, anyone can. i'm sure there are some here that would point out that i'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, i still support bush afterall. its not easy. it is scary. it is embarrassing. but it is possible.

Most of these poor people a saddled with a rugrat or two or three or four or......., so much for the storage area.

Mari, a couple years ago I had a girlfriend that was single with two boys in high school. She made a little over $16 k, federal withholding of about $1900 and a refund of well over $3k. :eyebrow:

bruce i wasn't suggesting that everyone follow in my footsteps. but i get tired of hearing the "i can't do _________ because _________ is in my way." there is always a path to improving one's situation.

So what's your point, Bruce? Did she get the extra $1100 because she was dishonest and cheated on her tax return? If so, I'd be mad, too. I don't advocate dishonesty. Or did she get the extra $1100 for earned income rebate as a single Mom of 2 boys? That's a family of three living on less than $1400/month from the information you give. If that's all she earned, I don't see how she managed to make ends meet, and you begrudge her a lousey extra $1100? Give me a break. Why aren't you angry over the $50 billion that your taxes are helping to pay towards rebuilding Iraq?

Frankly, I believe there should be no cut off point. I feel that there should be a simple flat rate tax that applies across the board from people who make one dollar a year to one billion or more. There should be no tax dodges on that amount or exceptions. You just pay it, just as you pay sales tax. When you buy something at the store, it doesn't matter if you are single or married, have 20 dependents or none, or are wealthy or poor - you pay that 6% or whatever it is in your area. That is the simple, fair and just solution.

As for the rest of your comments: Lookout, you believe the same things I once used to believe - that there are any number of programs out there which help the poor or the elderly or the disabled. There are not, at least on the Federal level, and not on the state level either with perhaps one or two exceptions.

Here's a reality check for you. HUD is cutting back its housing voucher program by at least $200 million which will force more than 600,000 American families out on the streets over the next 3 years. HUD did not have to do this - congress had appropriated the funding, but under the climate of the Bush administration, HUD decided to make these cuts anyway. Meanwhile, we are going to spend a minimum of 50 BILLION dollars to rebuild Iraq. People who are enemies of this country will have roofs over their heads thanks to YOUR tax dollars, but American people in need will be living on the streets. Bottom line, which chunk of your share of taxes is going to hit you the hardest - the $200 million to help your fellow countrymen or the $50 billion to help your enemy? I am on the HUD waiting list, but in light of these cuts, I do exactly feel in a sunny mood about getting any help from them anytime soon, and since this is a FEDERAL program, it makes no difference which state I move to.

Thanks to tax cuts which mainly benefit the wealthy which I gave substantiated examples of above; state and local governments everywhere are experiencing shortfalls. The first programs to go are always social services. Thanks to the lack of assistance from state and local governments, the poor are turning to charities in overwhelming numbers. These private charities cannot stand up under the strain. This is true in state after state.

The other thing that you forget is that people who have lived somewhere for a while tend to have a support system of friends and/or family in that place. Even if a person's friends are living in poverty themselves and can give no financial assistance, the emotional support they offer has no price that can be placed upon it.

You seem to want to hold on to some fairy tale belief of America the bountiful and think that somehow Colorado is the exception to every other state. Colorado is little different than any other place in this country and better than some. Garnet is right. How do I with an income of $625.00/month plus $140.00 a month in food stamps possibly afford to pick up and move to some other state and pay first and last month's rent plus damage deposit on an apartment somewhere? Remember, HUD is a Federal program, so anywhere I go in the country I will be faced with the same shortages and waiting lists. In fact, by moving I would loose my place on the El Paso County HUD list and have to start all over again at the bottom of another county's list in another state. Your suggestion is simply impossible and my saying that is no more defeatist than if you had advised me to sprout wings and fly, and I told you that human beings cannot grow wings.

Staying in Colorado is far from an act of defeat on my part, anyhow. My doctors are here, my support system is here. I have contacts here who I believe will reach out their hands to help me as I seek to rehabilitate myself and find work I can do again. Things are tough all over this country. I may as well take my stand and fight in a place that I love and where I have my roots than among strangers in a place I don't belong.

actually i don't believe that colorado is any different than the rest of the country. i wasn't suggesting that you move to another area for a better chance at a federal program. if you thought that is what i was saying then you missed the whole point. moving wouldn't help you. changing location for better work opportunities won't help a person who isn't working where they already are.

Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:

" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."

What point am I missing?
__________________

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

Now there's something we can be mad at America about...

Did she choose to have disabling health problems too?

I thought the American Dream had something to do with a House with a White Picket Fence, 2.3 children and a dog.

Excuse me:
Reality - SSDI income $625.00/month
Reality - food stamps $140.00/month
Reality - housing voucher indefinate waiting list of two years or more

YOU are the one who refuses to see any reality other than your own, because you would be forced to re-exam your system of beliefs and move out of your little comfort zone.

I did not choose to breath in a deadly gas for 5 years. I attempted to prevent such an event by installing a CO detector in my home. It was faulty and malfunctioned. I had no way of knowing this.

If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.

You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.

It seems to me that when I corner you on some point, you fall back on labeling me a "victim." Well, whatever helps you get through the night. I'm tired of attempting to defend myself to people with closed minds and zero medical knowledge. I have better things to do.

What seems to be the problem here is that neither side of this particular battle is really seeing (or trying to see) the other side. There are lots of truths and facts being presented to validate either side's case, but there's also truth in the fact that the whole set up is entirely subjective. The American Dream is an abstract concept and can't be tied down with reality, facts and truths, mainly because it's different for so many people. There's a lot of argument about what the Dream means or has meant to you as individuals but for several it seems the Dream can't mean anything else but that.

Let's say John Q Public starts out in a poor, low-down neighboorhood, drops out of high school and eventually ekes his way into a bag boy job at the local grocery store down the street, making $6/hr, $12,160-ish per year. If all he wants is to bring home enough cash to help support his family so they all can live a little easier, who can chide him for that? How much he pays in taxes is irrelevant. Whether or not he can pick up all and move far away to possibly get $7/hr bagging groceries is irrelevant. And whether or not he should is irrelevant too. If he's happy doing what he's doing, he's realized the American Dream. The same can be said if John started off in a wealthy family, finished grad school and started a business.

Of course, not everyone would be happy and settle with a $6/hr job or owning a startup business. And not everyone is going to move past that. The American Dream is about being able to pursue happiness in whatever it is you do. It doesn't matter if what you want to do is provide a supplemental income or start a business or wrangle the money markets and live off your inheritance. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a monetary line where happiness begins. Poverty != unhappiness, and great wealth != happiness. Just because one person, or a group of people, refuses be happy making less than $XXX a year doesn't mean someone else or another group of people has to be unhappy as well.

If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.

You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.

Here's the problem, mari: You are clearly able to write these long, well-thought-out responses on a wide variety of topics on this board, and have been doing so for some time. You talk about going camping and other various activities, so you don't seem to be significantly physically constrained in any way. The biggest problem I can recall you talking about is a lack of short-term memory. But all in all, you don't seem to be very disabled to a lot of people on this board.

I'm not trying to belittle your experience or tell you that "it's all in your head," I do believe you were exposed to CO and your brain was affected by it. Perhaps if we met you in person it would be more obvious why you are unable to work. But just reading what you've posted, you clearly seem able to hold a job--probably not a head librarian with a personal secretary, but certainly a job making more than $625 a month plus $140 in food stamps.

I imagine the problem is you would find such work--say, as a receptionist or a grocery store cashier--demeaning, and choose to stay on disability instead. But if you wanted to, I believe you could easily get a job making $7-$8 an hour, probably more. And once you had that job, I believe you could move up from there. But you have to be willing to work hard to improve your situation, and that may mean accepting the fact that no amount of vocational therapy will get you back to where you once were.

cyber wolf, that is what you said a page or 2 back and i think most people understood and accepted that as a very good explanation. the "dream" is different for everyone. we all have a shot at our dream.

the debate moved from being about that, to being more mari's about paranoid, victimized view of the world. but i still agree with you cyber wolf about what the dream is.

Well said, clodfobble. Mari is also able to drive which requires short term memory and spatial ability--things she says she has difficulty with. Is Mari driving impaired? I don't know, but it seems like it.

Can we focus less on Mari and more on the topic? Pleeeeease? With sugar? And caramel? And sprinkles? And whatever else topping you want? Double helping? :p

the question that began the thread has been answered. you summarized it very well. from there it moved into the assertion that the american dream exists only for comfy middle class folks. most of us disagree with that because as you pointed out the american dream is an idea not a benchmark. money doesn't equal happiness. there are folks who are living their american dream on $25K per year and there are folks who are still scrambling to achieve the dream who make $250K per year. the phrase "american dream" is misleading, it should be "american's dream" - so that everyone could understand it, like much in this country, is about the individual.

Exactly..possible. Anything's "possible" and nothing is guaranteed.

"Until you have walked in my shoes, you do NOT have the right to tell me what route to walk". Dr. George Keller

that is the point LSyc. it is possible, not guaranteed. that is why it is called the american dream, not the american promise. we are guaranteed Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. notice that the key to that is pursuit ? everyone has the ability to chase their particular golden ring. it is up to the individual with a little bit of luck thrown in to achieve financial success. it is also up to the individual to live a happy life.
i'm probably butchering the quote but i always liked the idea - "happiness is having what you want, contentness is wanting what you have" - or something along those lines.

Reality, eh? YOUR reality isn't HER'S nor is it mine. Are you on disability? Are you dealing with a chronic illness? Are you finding it hard to find work because of your schedule of various doctors appointments, etc.? I suspect the answer is no. So what if she bitches and moans about her situation...you know nothing about how she lives because you do not live it. I have a small idea of what she is *feeling* because it's a goddamned bitch trying to work with a system that doesn't seem to be willing to help you out and trying to make adjustments in order to live a halfway normal life.

Speak for yourself. I certainly wouldn't mind a lot of extra cash right now. It certainly would make things more "happier" for me. I'm not even gonna lie...

:eyebrow: (SIGH!) Okay, folks. I really was not interested in making this some discussion about me or my disability. The following is NOT whining; it's since you all asked. And I am NEVER going to write about this stuff again; in the future I will refer anyone who wonders to this post.

My long term memory which includes my years of education and professional training are intact, so are my verbal skills. These things are hard-wired in, so to speak. What I have difficulty with is my short term memory, my ability to concentrate, my spatial memory, and worst of all, I have gone what I call "blind" to time. My 15 minutes is your two hours. I have lost what psychologists call my executive function which is my ability to make a plan and take the steps to see it through to completion.

The posts that I write are seldom longer than a page, and usually consist of a couple of paragraphs. This writing reflects my old intact skills. I use the fact that I can go back down and refer to what everybody else has written as an aid to my memory so that I can respond in context to what has already been written. I cannot sustain writing something that goes much beyond three pages. It is too much for me. I get distract, go off and do something else and forget what I was trying to write.

Difficulty with spatial memory does not mean that I cannot drive the streets of my home town. That's an old memory. My short term memory is not that I forget that I'm at a red light or that a car is on my left hand side. I am aware of these things, but that short term awareness does not get stored into my long term memory anymore. When I get home, I could not describe the details of my drive to you.

When I am in an unfamiliar place, I often become lost. On this last trip (which it took me literally 4 days to pack my car for), I became lost 4 or 5 or 6 times. Once I was lost for an entire day on a maze of back roads. Lucky for me I had just filled my gas tank before that happened. I carry a book of 15 minute quads of the state and I also have an inexpensive GPS unit to help me figure out my coordinates. Despite the GPS and maps, I was still completely baffled as to where I was. When I wrote of my adventure on the Ute res in another thread, I had to stop because it was dark, I had been routed onto an unfamiliar road, and I had lost my bearings. I drove around northern New Mexico that night until 2:00 am when I finally lucked upon a small town I remembered from the old days and was able to get back on the right road. My friends have learned not to get too concerned about me if I don't show up when I'm supposed to. "Oh, how long we're you lost for this time?" they'll joke. I will also sometimes experience several minutes or more of complete blankout as to where I am. I'll be driving down the road and suddenly realize that NOTHING looks familiar and I don't know where I'm going. At such times I have to pull off the road and just sit quietly for a while until I become re-oriented. These are scarey experiences, and I am quick to pull over to the side of the road and get out of other driver's way when they happen to me.

Loss of spatial memory also means that I do not remember new faces. I can talk to someone I have been newly introduced to for an hour and the next day pass them on the street without knowing who they are. It takes me at least 4 or5 encounters with someone before I can begin to recognize them as someone I know. For example, when I first moved into where I now live, my landlord came to my door one day and I had no idea who he was even though we'd spent an hour or more talking only the week before. That's scarey and makes me fearful of new people because I always feel they know something that I don't.

Clodfobble, you are very quick to judge. The reason why I get so little from SSDI is that I refused to apply for disability for a long time after this happened to me. I considered going on disability to be a personal defeat. I attempted jobs as a gardener, a janitor, a dishwasher, ANYTHING to earn some money. In every single case I was fired from every job I attempted for being too slow and because of my difficulties with arriving on time. My short term memory lost manifests itself as an inability to rember what I should be doing - I "ping" from thing to thing and never get back to my original task. Does your city have those people who sell flowers on street corners? Well, mine does, and I tried that, too. I stood on the corners of my city's street holding out carnations to passing drivers. To keep my spirits up, I would play that song by Jewel, "Hands" on my cheap little boombox...

"My hands are small, I know; but they're not yours, they are my own and I am never broken...I won't be made useless. I won't be idled by despair. I've given myself to my faith. Its light the darkness most fears..."

Don't you DARE tell me I think I'm too good to attempt menial work. Don't judge a person before you've walked in their shoes.

I could go on, but I would think that the above should be sufficient. If you still want to judge me. Go ahead.

Mari, thanks for sharing that information. It's none of my business, but I'm curious. What's your situation now? You don't seem to be camping anymore. Where do you live? Is someone helping you? How do you have internet access? At a library? Again, it's none of our business, but I'm curious.
Thanks.

Okay, not to hijack the thread too badly -- how do you feel about Target? (pronounced "Tar-jey" around here...)

- Pie

I was wondering the same thing. I never shop at Walmart. Mostly because they aren't around here. But I do shop at Target. They are a good clean store with decent employees. Much nicer than the Walmarts I've been to.

Are they as evil? I never noticed that they had rock bottom prices on anything. I mostly just shop there because they have a lot under one roof.

Also, what about Home Depot? Lots of Mom and Pop hardware stores have gone belly up because of the Despot.

I was finally awarded my SSDI and got a back payment last June. In addition, my story appeared in a local paper and a retired Air Force Colonel who had been a professor of Russian history at the US Air Force Academy stepped forward with a very generous offer of financial help which allowed me to pay the rent on the cottage I now live in through next Feburary. The money from SSDI allowed me to replace my battered lap top with a new computer and I have a phone which I get a small discount on the bill for. I get dial-up access to the net through AOL. I just keep putting in new disks with the free offers of hours. I am very concerned about what my situation will be next Feburary if I have not recieved a housing voucher by then. I pray a lot.

And, BTW, I bet there won't be another word written in this thread by Brianna, Clodfobble, Lookout and anyone else who just were dying to turn this thread into their own little spam fest against me. It really makes me angry that what started out as an impersonal political debate had to degenerate into what it did, and then have the people who turned it personal slink off without another word. I can understand why people might be confused about my situation, but if I'm not writing about myself why do they insist that I do? I shouldn't allow myself to become upset over a few cyber strangers, but I am. People are soooooo STUPID! On one hand they say I appear intelligent and on the other they say I'm faking it. Well, if I'm so smart and I was lying, wouldn't I dumb down my posts and play the role of the popular image of a brain injured person? Like: itz werrie hard forr mee tooo tipe now *(3 my hans don werlk rite 86 and eye ferget n whut i wuz sayin..."

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Just had to add that. Sorry, but I now have anger problems along with my other difficulties :mad2:

Here are three words written by Brianna: Borderline. Personality. Disorder.

and, folks, it's not me! :3eye:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

it was thoughtful. I'm no rookie to these things, you know.

Right. I am in a very bad mood today, and tag you're it. You've proven you can dish it out, now let's see if you can take it.

To begin with you claim that you were an RN for 25 years and yet you don't even know basic science as shown by your confusion of CO with CO2. You tried to write that off as a typo. So just how skilled a nurse were you anyhow? Did you make similiar "typo's" when administering medications to your patients?

You claim a person can become an RN with a 2 year degree. True enough 25 years ago, but today the nursing profession is steadily moving forward to require stiffer academic requirements for the RN certification, and the baccalaureate degree is becoming the norm. No doubt while you were still in your profession you were subjected to a certain amount of pressure to upgrade your academic credentials, and you couldn't make the grade because you don't even know the basic fundamentals of freshman biology and chemistry. In addition to that, your treatment of your patients was lacking in compassion and empathy just as your posts are on this board.

In other words, you were burned out - "Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat."

Great pride you took in your profession, there. No doubt you woke up one morning with a pulled back muscle (back problems are an occupational hazard in the nursing profession) and trotted right down to your human services offices with your disability claim. You had private health insurance and private disability insurance and you knew the right people (and they were probably happy to see you go) and viola'! A nice fat disability check for life. How nice for you.

Somewhere along the way you picked up a superiority complex - no doubt from those "God-like" doctors you had to work with everyday - which you use to cover up your deep seated feelings of low worth - "if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English."

To compensate for this you have become a self appointed expert on any topic which may arise including the SSDI system. You and I both know that your private disability insurance company held your hand and walked you through the SSDI process and makes up the gap between what SSDI really gives you and the amount you recieve on your disability check.

"Starting out, recent measly 2 year grad, I made 50K." "I've worked in the ss system for 25 years." I see. You worked in the social security system for 25 years. That means you would have started your career in the late seventies. No one paid nurses 50k back then. They barely make that much now. Or did you start out as a government worker and change careers? Your statements don't match up. You are obviously twisting your story to make it look as though there's some validity behind your words.

You smugly state that "FEDERAL SSDI takes 2-4 months in Ohio. The award is 1271 single, 2570 for a woman with two kids." Anybody who knows ANYTHING about the SSDI system couldn't help but laugh at such a ludicrous statement. I don't have the faintest idea where you got those figures. Maybe that's what your private insurance pays. It sure ain't how the Feds do it.

You have consistently given false information in your posts and used extremely misleading wording. Your credibility is non-existant. For someone who is "no rookie at these things", the ignorance you display is appalling . Thank God for your helpless patients that you no longer work as a nurse.

I'm not begruging her anything just pointing out not all the poor pay taxes. Remember high horses make for long falls. ;)

Well, I think we misunderstood one another then, Bruce. That was my point about a million posts back (I think) that anyone who gets more than 7K a year pays taxes. I've been a tad grouchy lately, in case you haven't noticed. ;)