mm, great comparison. uh, no WTF are you smoking?

1) you do have the legal right to say that in america. you'll probably get the shit kicked out of you, but please, be my guest. stating that opinion is fine. to come out and say "i would like to kill bush" - now that may land you in an interview room.
2) last time i checked they aren't just picking americans off the street and throwing them in gitmo for voicing an opinion.

My clarification was that I was asking the question as an example, not saying that *I* would actually do something like that, which is how your response sounded.

Just letting you know, the gubbermint is quite responsive to threats, even the seemingly noncredible ones.

The secret service guy has lately been joking with our secretary about the fact that any conversations she has with him have to occur from behind a plant of some kind ... yes, he's visiting that often.

i know, i had an aquaintance who got an interview after some stupid comments in a bar.

what i was pointing out is the difference between saying "bush should die" and "i want to kill bush" one is just a statement of opinion, the other can possibly land you in hot water because it is a statement of intent. both may get an interview - but one will gain much more attention from the powers that be.

Zippy: the best explaination that I can give is that sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it. I'm sure that you have heard blacks say to each other, "Yo man, dat's my nigga!" It's said in a way that isn't offending the other person, and it's understood by the other person as such.

Now, if a white person says, "You damn dirty nigger!"...well, how is that going to be received? The same way that you received the word "cracker".

Quote:

And YES it buges the fuck out of me to be called cracker by a black person for this same reason .

As well it should.

Quote:

A few years back i was working in a plant that had a black superviser , he called all the black people by name , all the white people he called bubba . I said " ok rastis " , he got verry Irate . I told him my name is CHRIS NOT BUBBA !!!! We had to be seperated so we didn't kill each other . Not trying to rile you up , just curious .

No problem, although I had made a promise to myself that I would stop trying to explain black behavior to whites, because it was getting to the point where I was banging my head against the wall with some of them. However, you asked nicely, and wanted to know. Thanks. :)

However, in saying "you white Republicans" to a group of white Repubs isn't "hate" it's just stating a fact. Now, maybe if it was "you goddamned cracka Republicans"...that sounds hateful, and could possibly incite violence, etc.

Quote:

As unpaletable as it may be, I'll accept your right to make racist statements, publish pornography (although I draw the line at kid and snuff porn, sorry), and make the "Anarchist's Cookbook" available in every public library because freedom of speech is one of the most valuable freedoms a person or a people can have. When the censors take over, the people have lost.

Gone...and forgotten:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
"Choose your words wisely."
"If you have nothing good to say...."

*sighs* :(

Well, I'm still waiting for my interview (see my post above), but then I am kind of hard to find since I have 3 official addresses non of which is correct and my actual address in unfindable (I have to give friends detailed maps on how to get to my place). That's the nice thing about living in the mountains.

Its okay for members within any given group to insult one another, but very bad form for outsiders to do so. Its kind of like complaining about your family. I can say I hate my Mom, for example, but if someone else says my Mom is a bitch, I'll spring to her defense at once.

Perhaps Zippyt if Lady Syc's great grandfather had had the right to own y our greatgrandfather.....Perhaps if most white faces around you belonged to the direct descendants of slaves brought to a far land by powerful and wealthy Black men ....If the worlds wealth was still primarily concentrated into the hands of a small number of black families.....If the vote was something denied to your grandparents by Lady Syc's grandparents.....If there were still states in the Union where the pallor of your skin would keep you from being employed in any job above the menial and if in the forward looking progressive states merely be a minor obstacle ......If the world was ruled by a black elite who decades earlier stilll held power in the heart of Europe with the much larger white population virtual slaves....

Perhaps if Zippyt had spent his childhood watching TV rank with racism against his kind when the only white faces he saw growing up belonged to criminals or clowns...

If he was still more likely to get stopped by police, more likely to die before 30 and less likely to get a fair hearing should he be accused.

If all that were the case, maybe "cracker" would carry the same sting as "nigger"

But all that isnt the case. What we have now is the legacy left us by earlier generations. The wounds they inflicted have only just begun to scar over and even now the disparity of power between black and white is extreme.

But what if Bardot's assessment were correct?

(just not politically correct)

*jaw drop*

Well stated! Couldn't snip a word! :)

well, thanks for clarifiying your clarification, then. I misunderstood.....twice......at ease, soldier.

My point, made with hyperbole is there is not free speach in the US, or for that matter, anywhere else. There are things you can say anywhere which will land you in hot water and when you piss off the powers that be, the only thing your constitution for is toilet paper. If you think otherwise you are nieave in the extreme.

Read the fucking article, it says quite clearly she was fined because her comments were offensive to muslims.

Wolf, that's not a shocking article but it's not wonderful either, in the end radicalism, which is be neo-nazi groups in Russia or fundie islamics in the ghettos of paris is caused by one thing - poverty and powerlessness, remove that, problem goes away, it's not that fucking hard people.

Oh and for the wankers who have harped on since fucking 9/11 about how islam and democartic governments can't exist, do some reasearch (yes, much harder than just wanking out another column off the top of your head I know) in hizbollah, that friendly bunch and their role in the democratic government in Lebanon.

Christ I'm in a shite mood today.

Not sure of exactly what you're trying to get at here, Lady Syc. I am not advocating the use of racially hateful language or ethnic slurs. I think such words are an outrage to all that is human and humane in our society. A white man who shouts the "N" word out the car window to a black man he passes on the street is a Neanderthal and every such incident pulls our country down and makes me feel ashamed for the horrific history between black and white that is still being played out in the United States. I think that such comments are an outright abuse of our right to free speech. But should they be forbidden? As a concerned human being who is fully aware of the terrible harm that the war of white against black has done and continues to do in our country, I would answer "yes."

But as a citizen highly skeptical of the actual good will of the government towards the people it governs and as someone with a real fear of handing the governmet more power than it already has, I have to reluctantly grant that racist the right to speak as he pleases. I also have to say that if the black guy and one or two of his friends caught the guy who made the remark and gave him a few broken teeth, I'd cheerfully look the other way.

oh, and because it is in print then it must be the only explanation. calm the fuck down jag, your panties are just twisted a little too tight today. don't they have any valium, or better yet vicadin over there?

nobody said that WAS the reason for the fine, only that it may have played a role.

The article clearly states why legal action was launched, there is no obvious ambiguity nor evidence thereof.

The article clearly states why legal action was launched, there is no obvious ambiguity nor evidence thereof.

And Fox News "clearly states" a lot of things you don't believe.

I don't personally think France would prosecute someone just for appearing to support the U.S., but then again, I don't believe a lot of the sinister motives you ascribe to politicians over here either.

*Chuckles*well said Jaguar*passes a Camberwell Carrot* :joint:

In national as well as personal life, sometimes we need our friends to pull us up short for a reality check. People and nations can become so personally involved in an issue that they loose all objectivity. Thank-you both Dana and Jag for your astute observations. Neither one of you is that invested in the social system within the US, so you are able to see far more clearly what is going on.

Conservatives in this country have too much to lose by opening up their eyes or stopping to listen. For once uncover your ears and stop shouting "America the Beautiful" at the top of your lungs to drown out all other voices. You might learn something if you did. (OK, I know the conservative rottwilers of the board will now attack with all their teeth. I'm bracing myself...)

Bring back Anita Bryant. At least she openly promoted hate in English.

You people should see the filth that passes for campaign literature from the British National Party. A party founded by the remnants of the broken National Front and what thugs they are. They dont change they just buy suits.

The literature they put out, the leaflets and "newspapers" they push through the letterboxes of millions of homes in Britain are filled with thinly veiled racial slurs, and outright lies designed solely to whip up racial hatred. Even with our laws these get through. They have to be careful these days.......These days they cannot actually exhort people to "bash a paki" like they did in the 70's .....these days they have to be circumspect. They can still lie though. They can sell people a lie to hang their anger on and come polling day we get another fascist councillor.....or more accurately we get another 4.

Tonight in local elections in England the BNP made a gain of 4 council seats. Slowly they gather speed.....slowly they get their feet under the parliamentary table and it becomes ever harder to remove them. ...Do you think i am being over dramatic when I characterise these people as fascist? Certainly they share many of Hitlers views, express open admiration for his methods, deny the reality of his crimes and claim democracy to be false path which they would replace through revolution......until such time as that is possible they will work within the parliamentary system.....Of course they are never very far away from their pollitical roots...Their party leader has served time for violent assault and has publically endorsed the books of a fascist "historian" who claims the holocaust to be a lie.....A fitting leader for a party who have their roots on the football terraces during the hey day of "soccer hooliganism" ....You can see it, they cant hide it much as they try. For all teir tidy suits and careful smiles, when the camera is rolling for more than 5 minutes one of them says something or punches a protestor *chuckles* and you realise they really are just missing the brown shirts.

Theyre not isolated either....France's fascist politician Le Pen attended a meeting with the leader of the BNP ( Nick Griffen) a few weeks ago.....My didnt they just look the picture of respectable, electable suited gents of the noble game?.....Aye....right up until one of Griffen's "aides" lamped a protestor.

That wasn't towards you. Just lamenting that the disrespect will continue and that people will have to continue to put up with it, that's all. I just plain give up.

OK, then why does the problem persist? Is it because it is that fucking hard? That doesn't mean that was their motivation, just their method and excuse.;)

Ahhh, Lady Syc, don't give up. Things DO get a little better. My Mom was very racist (I'm ashamed to admit), but I didn't buy into it. My Dad (originally from the South) taught me to view people as human beings before anything else. So we CAN change things. Maybe only one person at a time, but it does begin to add up.

If you make this statement, some may agree, others will just shake their head at your stupidity. How is that statement "inciting" anything, except possibly an ass whuppin' from someone that's offended?:confused:

The point I was trying to make, Bruce, is just that some statements are more "loaded" than others. Its illogical to state that because no one responds to a "hate" statement about folks from Iowa, that, therefore, Hitler's statements were not incenduary. This seemed to be the general drift of the discussion at the time I posted that, and I wanted to give an example of how a statement can indeed be inflammatory. No, thank God, a person saying "The damn N's are responsible for all our problems" does not inflame the population as a whole into a rage, but, certainly, it has in the past (surely, I don't need to recount to you all the sad tales of lynchings, cross burnings, etc); and I pray to God it won't in the future.

I don't think it's that simple, jag.

First off, how do you fix the poverty issue? There are always going to be haves and have-nots, particularly in a capitalist system. Secondly, what kind of power are we talking about? And how much should they get?

Having said that, even if you remove those two items, you are still going to have some pissed off people who won't be satisfied. You can't please everybody.

They have 8 or so seats in the Lebanese parliament, not to mention their social service activities. Now, if they'd just chill on the "death to Israel" shit...

To add to that...the government over there seems stable, but not THAT stable.

Well, see, here we have a problem Because the gist that I'm getting from ya'll is that the most radical, hateful, destructive political philosophy in the world is the American neo-con.

And believe me, they are not poor. And they are not powerless.

-sm

Uhmm... SM, will you forgive me if I ask a REALLY stupid question? You see, I was kind of out of the loop for a while what with one thing and another, and I really don't understand this whole neo-con thing. Could you give me a brief summation of what they're about? Seriously, I'm really confused about them.:confused:

Ah but you're mistaking partisan soapbox for a reputable newssource (reuters). There is absolutely nothing in any shape of form to in any way back up russotto's paranoid and delusional (they're all out to get us) ravings.

Solving it? Sure, realizing that is the problem? No.

First of all, France fucked up, big-time. Dumping quite literally millions of immigrants into impoverished ghettos with little hope of escape and buggar all jobs was asking for trouble from the start. You can't please everybody and there are always fringes that are desperate to blow up something or something over something but most of them never get anywhere, why? They lack any real support. The thing every revolution and every successful terrorist group (look at FARC in colombia for example) have in common is a whole lot of almost always impoverished, powerless people and someone who offers an easy solution. The meme of Al Queda has offered that easy solution to marginalized, impoverished, powerless muslims the world over and people are shocked they're answering the call? Amazing the difference jobs, flat screen TVs and aircon could make.

The problem in much of the middle east is a combination of political and economic stagnation, often fueled by governments who would rather have people chanting death to america in the streets than death to them - they use it to deflect attention from their own failings.

I don't know how you solve all these problems but i know that killing bin laden and as many of his supporters as you feel like it going to do jack shit.

Lebanon is a classic example of too many cooks. Everyone seems to have a finger in Lebanon, the Iranians used it to get back at the US, the Syrians are continually fucking around, uncle Sam pushing pieces as well, it doesn't help the situation. If you look at the ethnic and religious makeup of the place not to mention the bloody civil war it's amazing who can now live together. If there is a model for these places to work to it's Lebanon, women in parliment,islamic parties supporting democracy, christians and musilms living side by side. I'd love to visit the place, fantastic nightlife.

Mari: All you need to know is here , Rummy is a member.

"Mari: All you need to know is here , Rummy is a member."

Yuck to the nth degree! Really? Blech, sorry I asked. It seems like the more I know these days, the more I feel I have to apologize to the rest of the world for being American. It wasn't me, I swear! I demonstrated against them in the streets, I wrote endless arguments against them, I sure as hell didn't vote for them, but one day I woke up and there they were. I did my best and I failed. I'm sorry, you guys. (slinks off to spend the rest of her life in a cave, refusing to ever speak to another American again).

You're just trying to get my hopes up, aren't you?:p

No.:(

Well perhaps if Israel would stop conducting reprisals against the civilian population of West Bank other Arab nations might not feel so angered by them

More than that. Check out the signatures on the various letters on this page.

Some highlights:

Elliott Abrams (National Security Council, Reagan's Ast. Sec. State)
Richard L. Armitage (Deputy Secretary of State)
Gary Bauer ( Moralist, Former Pres. Candidate, held several posts under Reagan )
William J. Bennett ( Sec. Ed. and head of NEH under Reagan)
Jeb Bush (President's brother, Governer of Florida)
Dick Cheney ( Head of Bush's Vice Presidential selection committee, Bush's Vice President. )
Steve Forbes (Former Pres. Candidate )
Charles Krauthammer ( pundit )
William Kristol ( Chief of Staff to Dan Quayle and William J. Bennett)
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby ( Assistant to Bush, Chief of Staff to Cheney)
Richard Perle (Former Pentagon and Likud policy advisor, pundit)
Dan Quayle ( Elder Bush's veep. )
Donald Rumsfeld ( Bush's Sec. Defense )
Paul Wolfowitz ( Deputy Sec. Defense )

So...more tit-for-tat, eh? That's part of the reason why there is no peace.

Well, the Supreme Court back in the 1940's defined the concept of 'fighting words', words which were considered almost a physical assault. Of course the test case involved a person yelling at a police officer, who's obviously tender feelings were hurt.

Fighting words doctrine


As far as Ms. Bardot is concerned, she is now married to an executive of the French National Front part, a sort of John Birch Society ultra-nationalist group. Ms. Bardot's story appears to be another sad story of an individual living a wild and libertine lifestyle who seems to have an epiphany, decides to straighten up, and proceeds to overcompensate to the point where he or she becomes a tiresome ultraconservative dogmatist denouncing free love, free thought, free expression, or any kind of liberalism.

Maybe she and GWB can form a club.


Here are two pictures of her

Then

http://www.biosstars.com/b/bardot/photos/4.jpg


and now


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...lt-261x384.jpg

At least she hasn't appeared to have changed her eyeliner.

You find a look that works for you, you stay with it.

oh sweet jesus. if she looked that good then, and looks that bad now......i'm doomed.

i'd be bitter too. yuk!

What have any of those groups really given their people though? Not much. Hizbollah comes close to doing something useful for their peeps, but they're still terrorists.

A job would be nice, sure. AC could help. Flat screen TVs? Put the Kool-Aid down. :)

But seriously...what has the Q really done for Muslims, other than making them an unfortunate target?

Agreed.

I think the first thing that needs to happen is that Allah needs to be removed from the situation. The chances of that happening are about as likely as the US pulling every single soldier out of Iraq tomorrow morning, but Allah/God is the fuel for the flames.

The peace there seems rather uneasy though. As I understand it, Muslims make up 2/3 of the population, yet only get half the seats in parliament. But the government won't do a census b/c they fear another uprising.

They used to call Beirut the Paris of the Middle East, and from what I heard about it a few months ago, its comeback is nothing short of a miracle.

Syc, I'm not saying that acutally help people, Hitler certainly didn't do much for the Germans in the end but they offer the illusion of hope and it works.

Not really, that's my point. Remove the other factors and it's not such an issue. Of course if turkish soldiers 'regime changed' the vatican there might be some pissed catholics around - that's basically what's going on in Iraq right now.

As for Lebanon, the fact there is any peace after that war (literally carved the city up into blocks on religious grounds and sniped at each other for a decade) is pretty incredible, the fact there is a functioning democratic system is a miricle.

I dig what you're saying, Jag. But in order to diffuse the situation as it stands right now, you do have to remove the God issue so that you can talk about those other factors.

Agreed. But I suspect that it will only be a matter of time before the Muslims detest the status quo...and the Christians will fight as bitterly as they did the last go-round.

I have a little more hope for Lebanon but time will tell.

But how do you suggest that happens? The only way you can really deal with it is to ignore is as much as you can while you right the situation.

We're all doomed, LJ. Its either die young and be a pretty corpse or grow older. Live with it as long as you can, big guy.

Originally, "republicans" were "liberal" and "democrats" were "conservative." Nowadays, it's reversed.

I got into this thread late, but for my two cents, I figure she should be able to say whatever she wants, in a book. I think LJ was the one who said that to be offended, one would actually have to buy and read the book. That's just it. Of course, that's France; I don't get those people anyway. I don't know how free speech works over there.

And as to her looks...hell, the woman's a hundred and sixty-seven years old ;) --I'd say she looks damn good for someone who hasn't tried to go plastic (or has she?)....



Sidhe

The thing is, it won't happen during my lifetime, and I have too many other things that need my attention more. Ah well, people are going to say whatever the hell they want anyway, tact, couth, and home training be damned. :(