He's still a racist idiot.

"All of the discussion above refers to the current culture of the region, and the people living there now."

It almost doesnt matter when the writer is referring to. Its vile.

vile
adj. vil·er, vil·est
Loathsome; disgusting: vile language.
Unpleasant or objectionable: vile weather.

But is it true? Untrue? Somewhere in between?
It seems since the Moors got kicked out of Spain, the moslems/muslims have retreated into their own world. Oil gave them clout and Isreal gave them a cause. Charismatic leaders don't seem to make much of a mark unless they are despots like Saddam or terrorists like Osama and Arafat (and Sharon). Clerics seem to rule the roost(s) and they are only interested in subservience from their flocks.:confused:

Not completely.

--Ottoman Empire
--Kemal Atatürk
--Turkey joining NATO and trying to join the EU

Either that, or we could ask the Indians how to add large numbers together.

Whether it be current, the last 50 years or forever, I stand by my original statement on item I.A.3.

Having thought about this at some length, I think UT's right. Denbeste has clearly outlined the reasons for the war. Calling him a moron or racist is shooting the messenger. Is it so hard for you to believe that the linked site, clearly outlines the thinking of the Bush administration?:)

I don't know how closely it tracks the Bush adminstration thinking, it's just one guy writing from his house in San Diego.

Really one only has to read the Project for the New American Century to get a handle on how the Bush administration thinks. Amazing how many of the people who quite happily came up with such a plan are now in positions of power from Washington to Baghdad.

OK, but that doesn't mean he's doesn't have a handle on how the Bush brigade thinks.:)

Iraq has absolutely NOTHING to do with 9/11 and the draft isn’t asking anyone to do anything, it’s forcibly enslaving someone and making them fight in a war they might not otherwise support and possibly even sending them to their death.

No, it’s all bad. It’s slavery. You assume that those who don’t vote are apathetic which is mainly false. People see that when they vote for the major two parties they get the same thing. So why should they vote? The problem is they don’t realize that if they did vote for Libertarians, they would actually get change in the right direction.

They already have more than they need spread out all over the world. They should close all foreign military bases move the troops home or to where they are needed. The fact that retention rates are down, desertions are up, and less people are signing up is only a sign that the government is getting into wars that they shouldn’t be getting into and those wars are not supported by the public (the boss).

If a war is worth fighting, people will sign up.

That’s a good thing considering we have no business in Iraq in the first place. And for the record, London is ANYTHING BUT a peaceful city where few people own anything more lethal than a swiss army knife. London and England in general have a higher rate of violent crime than America. Why? Because good people are prevented from owning guns to defend themselves against thugs and because thugs (who still have guns) know they can easily victimize those who aren’t armed.

Whether or not they had “rape rooms” or tortured people is completely irrelevant and does not justify violating the U.S. Constitution to send soldiers into Iraq. Nor would it be justification if Iraq had 10,000 nukes being built with rockets that could deliver them right into our backyards. Simply having weapons does not make them an eminent threat. Iraq should have had nukes because if they did, America wouldn’t have invaded them without provocation.

To use those “considerations” as an excuse to invade another country is insane. America is not here to force other countries to be democracies, or to treat their people the way the president thinks they should be treated. America has NO AUTHORITY beyond our own borders.
The war had NOTHING to do with “enforcing UN resolutions” and those who claim it does know less than nothing. The U.S. Government is limited to doing ONLY those things that are specifically listed in the Constitution and nothing else!!! That means “enforcing UN resolutions” is NOT allowed by the US Government. The U.S. government gets authority from the Constitution and not from the UN.

Don’t even try that lame shit here. The Palestinians would have new U.N. resolutions against them every single day if they were a country. Every single thing that Israel has done was in their own defense. And every single square centimeter of land occupied by the Israeli government belongs to them legitimately. In fact Israel would be justified in taking ALL of the land from all of the people who attacked them in 1967. Israel has been far to gentle, kind, and accommodating to their scumbag terrorist neighbors. I’m very happy to see Israel doing the right thing lately by taking care of business. If they kill Arafat, they’d really be doing the right thing.

Israel needs to let the Palestinians and every single one of their neighbors know that if you screw with Israel, you will be destroyed. If you leave Israel alone, you will live in peace. Live in Peace or Rest in Peace are the only choices Israel should give to their neighbors.

The simple truth is there was absolutely no legitimate reason what-so-ever for America to invade Iraq…NONE!!!

wwoooa......I just entered bizarro world, I agree with Radar on something:

Oh yeah?

au·thor·i·ty
(click to hear the word) (-thôr-t, -thr-, ô-thôr-, ô-thr-)
n. pl. au·thor·i·ties

The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.
One that is invested with this power, especially a government or body of government officials

None of those apply to the U.S. Government when it comes to sovereign foreign nations. Sovereign nations have not invested governing power to the United States. And the United States was created to escape from imperialistic tyrrany, not to practice it like George W. Bush and his ilk would like. Iraq is a sovereign state.

Sovereign State: a state which administers its own government, and is not dependent upon, or subject to, another power.

Not in the eyes of much of the world. Not in the eyes of most Europeans. Not in the eyes of the United Nations. Not in the eyes of international law.

Whilst we're at it then. Why is it that the death of Israeli citizens at the hands of people who are so outgunned and hemmed in they have to resort to their own bodies as delivery systems, considered a crime of staggering proportion, yet the Palestinian civilians are simply collateral damage or an unfortunate incident.?

Does nobody find it worrying that the state of Israel is given tacit ( and in the case of America overt) permission to engage in political murder within the borders of a country it is occupying ? I use occupying because that is what it is. Thats what it has been termed by the international community. That is it's legal status.

The current Interfada(?) started in direct response to the shooting of a Palestinian child who died in the arms of his Father. That was a crime. The deaths of Israeli toddlers in settlements is also a crime. The difference is that one is politically motivated murder and the other is state sponsored murder. You only have to take a look at the death toll on either side to see which one is truly terrifying.

And.....I do not understand, why the very fact that these people have to resort to such.....personally costly methods to drive home their point, leads to them being seen as somehow less credible, almost inhuman....Less credible? They have nothing left to throw at their enemy but their own bones strapped with explosives. If the French resistance had engaged in suicide bombing against their occupiers I wonder how we would write that tale now?

Because the Palestinians are targeting women and children specifically and it was they who INITIATED the violence in the first place. Israel does everything they can to avoid harming innocent women and children but it's tough when the terrorist surround themselves with women and children and thus are responsible for any harm that comes to them.

The Palestinian people never owned that land in the history of the planet earth. They were squatters. And whatever European nations think is irrelevant. If you try to steal from someone, and you get robbed by them, you have no right to complain. If you try to kill someone and they kill you instead, you also have no right (or ability) to complain.

In 1967 the nations around Israel attacked them without provocation and Israel would have been entirely within their rights to take all of the land from all of the countries who attacked. But Israel was far too kind and only took small pieces of land as a buffer from the scumbag cowardly terrorist who target and murder women and children.

It's disgusting how the terrorists who blow up women and children, or who send them surround themselves with Palestinian women and children so when retribution comes they can point to those who they put in danger and say, "Look at what monsters Israelis are!!". What a crock of shit.

If I were in charge of Israel, there would be no more Arafat, and no more fighting within less than a year. I'd let the Palestinian people know if they made even one more attack (whether it is a rock thrown thrown at a soldier or a suicide bomb in a shopping center), I'd give them 1 week to evacuate the entire area into surrounding nations before I rolled in with tanks, jets, rockets, helicoptors, and soldiers and killed every single living thing remaining. And I'd let every single surrounding Arab nation know if they got involved, they would also be destroyed and thier land taken. No more fighting.

The Palestinians don't want peace. They just want dead Jews. And that would end now. I'd give them the choice to live in peace (stop all attacks now and forever) or rest in peace (when they are destroyed)

Anyone who supports the Palestinians is a Jew hating supporter of terrorism.

Every single thing Israel has ever done was justified, reasonable, and warranted retaliation for the attacks of their cowardly terrorist neighbors other than trying to bargain with scumbags like Arafat.

You mean Mohammed al-Dura?

Then there are a hell of a lot of Jew hating supporters of terrorism amongst the British and European Jewish communities

What's the difference? In this context - don't point me to a dictionary.

You may believe that but in fact, at the monent, Iraq is Bush's bitch.

Not that I support the Palestinians (nor the Israelis), but your comment begs the question... how is it that you classify the Palestinians as squatters; but somehow a bunch of English dudes floating across the ocean in the late 1400s, planting some flags on North America and said "this is ours now" are NOT just squatters? Would you argue that we don't own this land, that the native americans have legal claim to it? If not, then why?

I do indeed. That page is interesting. I have read other stuff that I found more convincing though.

Radar needs a refresher course on property rights. He believes that because the Palestinians had no State they had no rights. That is crap. Individual rights exist outside the state. This is where his atheism gets in the way of his libertarianism. Radar is a Statist.

You mean sadist?

It stings more when you call a libbytarian a statist.

I dont understand what atheism has to do with it....I am an atheist. I find it helps me see the world more clearly not less....

How does an absolute belief in an unprovable concept make you see things more clearly?

The American Indians had no claim at all to the land because even in their own culture they didn't recognize land ownership, but supposing they did, they lost a war. To the victor goes the spoils. In my opinion, they shouldn't have even gotten reservations. They should live, work, and be subject to the same laws as everyone else without being handed a check when they turn 18.

Nobody said they had no rights, but they had no ownership at all of the property. The property has been in the hands of several empires (British, Ottoman, Roman, Egyptian, etc.) but was never owned by the people who were staying on it. And until Israel started building there weren't even many squatters.

I'm not a statist in your wettest or my driest dreams. I'm not a statist by any stretch of the rational mind. And my atheism doesn't get in the way of anything or have anything to do with the subject of property rights.

Being an atheist doesn't have anything to do with it. That's just griff's poor attempt to try to insult me. And apparantly atheism doesn't make you see more clearly because you are trying to justify terrorism and calling those who defend themselves and their property the monsters.

It's not your lack of religion that's the problem, it's your warped value system.

Everyones belief system impacts the way they look at the world. I don't mean to insult your world view in any way. Radar on the other hand is violating a key part of the belief system he claims to adhere to. He is always an over the top, in your face, libertarian but suddenly he has revealed that he believes property rights are a gift from the state. The reason I twisted his tail on atheism is because as an acedemic question, I asked him point blank in an earlier thread where natural rights come from in a Godless universe. There is probably an answer but he didn't have it. Natural rights are a basic foundation of libertarianism. It now appears to me that he doesn't believe that man has any rights not granted by the state. That makes him a Statist not a libertarian.

In much the same way as knowing that pixies, santa , his elves and the toothfairy dont exist helps keep my mind clear to concentrate on stuff that does.

I have looked at the evidence as best I can given my lack of education in the fields of physics and theology and I have read books writtenby scholars on both sides of that divide and frankly I am more convinced by the evidence put forward by the physicists than those put forward by the theologians. Can it be proven without a shadow of a doubt? Well if you ask Professor Dawkins he would probably say no. If you ask the Archbishop of Canterbury he would probably say no. But thats because its not provable. Neither is the existence of Pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Just because nobody ever found one doesnt mean theyarent there right?

It strikes me that at some point you have to accept a default position. If something is unprovable then you look to the next level and ask yourself is it really likely? I think God is as likely as the devil and both are as likely as self propelled flying pigs. I have yet to hear a single theological academic or theological physicist (I was surprised to find they existed...) put forward a theory that didnt run up against my "thats bullshit" filter.

Throughout history scientists have searched for answers and the church has warned them back saying "Nay nay this far and no further.....From this point on you have strayed into heaven" yet the scientists pushed forwards and forwards, and the sun ceased to revolve around the earth and the earth ceased to be flat and again the men of God said "nay. Nay ths far and no further. We said God existed at the edge of our sight and you have pushed forwards into heaven and found only sky. This far and no further. For after this point we trespass on Gods' house" but further we went.....at each major push the men of God have bid us cease our pushing. They have insisted that God exists at the edge of our knowledge. Each time we push forward and find no evidence of God. Next we are told he exists beyong the big bang....But then we learned to see through and beyond the big bang and saw no God. Then we decided....Maybe God is the spark that gave us sentience....the more we find out about our genetics and our physicaldevelopment the more the answer seems to come back that God had no part in our awakening.

I accept that those with religion have the right to that belief. But....I also think that religion ( of every brand) is a dangerous thing, a conservative thing and a block to human understanding and scientific progress.

Imagnine we were talking about pink elephants and the default position was that we should all respect everybody's right to believe in herds of pink elephants despite nobody in living memory ever having seen a pink elephant ....thats fair enough ...but would the marker be set for all generations of scientists to come that they must test all their evidence with the assumption that pink elephants are all around them, unseen and integral to the workings of th universe?

For any of you who do believe in a God, then just dismiss this as the ramblings of an atheist and pay me no heed :P

Radar loves twisting facts. He hopes we forget late 1990 Middle East. Intafada 2 was created - and quite intentionally - by Ariel Sharon and his few hundred closest friend. Trampling upon Temple Mount was but one of thousands of desecrations to create hate, anger, and then violence. Only one group is responsible for wanting violence in the Middle East. Intafada 2 was necessary for Likud to trample on innocent people. Only Likud also openly advocated the assasination of Rabin - so that a peace process would be quashed. What is the enemy of Likud? Peace.

The Oslo Accords were Likud's greatest threat. Likud had to murder Rabin to end peace. They had to desecrate and humiliate Palestinians repeatedly to restart the violence. Only two of many early acts of violence created only by Likud. Likud made peace impossbile. Made it impossible for a vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians to promote what honest, moderate people of all nations want - peace.

Radar advocates what all dichead supporters - better know as Lukid - want. He rabidly advocates more violence that I sometimes think he has sex when promoting violence and Likud. Likud wants only violence. Violence is necessary for Zionism. More violence means Israel steals the West Bank. More violence means a wall can be built to steal the remaining good West Bank land. They got George Jr to even let them use American weapons on Palestinians - and a long list of other concessions. No previous American president was so dumb as to let Israelis attack defenseless Palestinians with American weapons. All this violence and mental midget president concessions are necessary for Zionism.

Radar lies to promote their agenda. Violence was clearly started by Sharon and his Likud party - starting with the murder of Rabin. Radar hopes we forget what was happening before Likud had Rabin assassinated.

Did the Palestinians kill Rabin? Of course not. They wanted peace. Only Likud needs violence to promote their Zionism. The dichead and mass murder Sharon did just that. He even has Radar promoting the genocide that Likud needs. Those Israeli victims? Necessary for the greater glory and objectives of Likud. Cannon fodder for a militant Zionist state.

Ask yourself how Ghandi would respond to so many accusations. Do you attack like the dichead - or promote peace? Your choice.

Well, we already know that he's a dickhead...

*shrugs* We all know radar is a nutjob, particularly when it comes to the Isreali/Palatsinian conflict, don't waste your time DanaC, it's like debating with a brick wall.

tw, I couldnt agree more.
Jaguar....thanks....I really ought to remind myself of that every now and again *smiles* for sanity's sake hehe

I have said no such thing.

Yes, I had it then and I still have it. Natural rights come from nature. We're born with them and the fictional character of "god" doesn't even enter into the picture.

True. What's your point?

That's an absolute and utter lie and I've never even said anything even remotely suggesting something so absurd. What the fuck are you smoking?

I've said that the Palestinian people didn't own the land and they didn't. Merely staying on a piece of land doesn't make it yours. If I buy some land in a state where I don't live, and you camp out on it for years, and then I choose to live on that land, IT'S NOT YOUR LAND!!! You never owned it and have no property rights to it what-so-ever. You're a liar if you claim otherwise.

The burden of proof rests squarely on those who claim god does exist; real proof of the existence of the being of god, not things people attribute to god like those idiots who point at a tree and are stupid enough to suggest that its proof god created it. If I said I saw a purple and orange polka-dot gorilla in the wild that could read minds, speak every language, and levitate nobody would believe me and if I pressed the issue they would demand to see it. The story of god is no more believable than the purple gorilla without measurable tangible proof of the being of god.

I have never "twisted" the facts even once. Everything I've said is straightforward, truthful, and based in historical fact.

TW just tells lie after lie. It's so predictable and boring.

Wrong. Violence is not necessary for Zionism. Peace is necessary for it. Zionists just want to lvie peacefully on their own land (yes it's their land) without having their women and children targeted and attacked. No attacks against Israel means no violence in return. The violence started on the part of the Palestinians, and it will voluntarily on their part or it will just end the Palestinian people.

I'm not advocating the initiation of violence. I'm advocating ending violence and having Peace once and for all. If the Palestinians refuse to stop their violence against Israel, they will be destroyed and Israel will still have peace.

Israel hasn't "stolen" any land. In fact they've been far too kind. They should have taken all the land of all the nations who attacked them because they are entitled to it. To the victor goes the spoils. But because Israel isn't interested in conquest or in someone else's land, they only took a small part of what they were entitled to as a buffer zone between them and their terrorist neighbors.

TW sure likes to try to rewrite history, but forgets that others like myself know the truth and will shut him down everytime he's stupid enough to open his mouth.

Here's a little fact retard, the U.S. military has never ever fought to defend Israel; not once. But they have fought to defend several Muslim nations.

It's not up to an American president to determine who or why any other nation attacks anyone. Israel owns every single square centimeter of land they occupy legitimately and is perfectly justified morallly and legally to blow the shit out of people who attack them.

Israel takes every precaution to avoid harming innocent civilians but the Palestinians terrorists surround themselves with them as a human shield so they can point to the bodies and call Israel a bunch of monsters when in fact it was the Palestinians who initiated the violence and were just getting justice. Every death of a Palestinian civilian who was placed in danger by Palestinian terrorists rests on the shoulders of the Palestinian terrorists, not in those who brought justice to them.

I have NEVER lied on this or any other message board, but you seem to tell many lies. Here's a perfect example of a lie...

Wrong. The violence was started 3 days after Israel was created as a nation by the Palestinians and hasn't stopped since. The Palestinians don't want peace, they want to kill Jews. In 1996, the Palestinians were offered all of the land rightfully taken by Israel in 1967, and to get help in becoming an actual country if they could go one week without attacking any Jewish people in Israel. They coudn't do it.

TW, you're stupid and dishonest beyond words. Zionism does not require violence, but terrorism against Zionists does.

Ask yourself how long America would allow Mexicans to go into American movie theaters, malls, busses, etc. blowing up people before we just blew the shit out of Mexico? You can bet your ass it wouldn't be 50 years. Israel has been far too patient, kind, gentle, and nice to their neighbors.

Israel allows Palestinians to live, work, and even vote in Israel including women. No Arab nation on earth allows Arab women to vote.

I find it hilarious that the most idiotic, insane, pathetic, moronic, losers and assholes on the board call me a dickhead like Jaguar, Griff, Sycamore, and TW. I wear your insults like a badge of honor. Not that any of you would know much about honor.

I rest my case.

As for honor, you'd best watch your words, the internet is a funny place and you never really know who you're talking to.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
-Isaac Asimov

.......Up to and including bulldozing houses with the occupants still in them......Up to and including firing rockets ( rockets mind you!) into an apartment block which contained one of their political enemies but also happened to contain a bunch of kids.

If the Palestinians choose to hide their militants in residential areas thats no reason for Israel to abandon all sense of decency and basic humanity by slaughtering innocents. ......Of course I dont see it as the palestinians militants hiding amongst civilians....after all....they live in crowded cramped towns grown up out of the squalor of refugee camps where everyone, civilian and militant alike is in constant fear of attack.

When Ancient Rome ruled the world they used to engage in a practice of punishing entire regions for the misdemeanors of a few. The British did it also in India. And the rampant army which is (laughably) referred to as the Isareli Defense Force do the same. They are not an Empire to rival Rome but they live under the Aegis of one much greater.

A crime of epic proportions is being inflicted upon the Palestinians and the world is too busy feeling guilty for the suffering we caused amongst the Jewish people in the last century to notice that the Israeli state learned the lessons of fascism all too well.

I saw a picture once which really shocked me. I wish i could find it again :( It showed a long line of Palestinian men and boys ( youngest about 12 oldest about 70) who had been dragged from their homes and were being taken off for "questioning" by the Israelis.....Every one of these men had his prison number marked on his forearm. Now theres an image to take away the breath.

Yeah, can't they see the parallel of building a big wall along the border to keep their citizens from escaping the living hell that -- uh --

It's Fascism I tell you! What do you mean 10% of the Israeli government representatives are Arabs?

I'd like to see a source for that, I don't mean that in a cynical way, I'm genuinely curious.

SO I can come round to your house, kick your ass and steal your TV, coz hey, I'm the victor, bitch.

Unfortunately my cite is in the same place as Dana's image.

But I have Google... according to this article, currently 10 out of 120 Knesset seats are held by Arabs. Slightly less than 10%. The article is a year and a half old though.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk021115/i20.shtml

I found This

There is an arab faction, only has two members though. Not sure if the rest are spread though the groups, no breakdown on race unsurprisingly.

Of course you don't see it that way. You deny the truth. Nobody is forcing Palestinians to live in refugee camps. They could live in palaces if they chose. They'd just have to develop their own land, open their own businesses, and leave their Israeli neighbors alone. Israel isn't stopping the Palestinians from living peacefully on their own land and thriving, only the Palestinians are preventing peace and choosing to live in abject poverty.

We're not talking about a few. We're talking about hundreds of unprovoked attacks murdering thousands of innocent women and children. Israel does not target women and children and avoids them whenever possible.

The phrase "to the victor goes the spoils pertains to war". But if your country beats my country, and takes it over, yes, you could take my stuff. But since we're both in the same country and this country recognizes and protects my rights, I don't have to worry about that. But even if we didn't live in any government and you came over to rob me, I'd kick the shit out of you, take your wallet and throw your broken body into the gutter where it belongs.

Israel is building a wall to keep bad people out, not to keep good people in. Israel will allow anyone to exit, but only good people to enter.

If Israel only had one arab member of their government, it would be more than the number of Jews in all of the Arab governments combined.

If we are talking about recent years I think we are talking about the deaths of hundreds of women and children. The deaths of palestinians however can be measured in the thousands.

The numbers simply dont add up. Its like watching a goliath batter the hell out of a cripple and then having the Goliath cry havoc because the cripple kicked him in the shin.

In all this talk we havent evenmentioned the many Arab Israelis. Those living within Israel and participating in its "democracy" ....During the war against Saddam's forces there was a huge fear in Jerusalem that Saddam launch a gas attack on Israel. The government issued gasmasks and safety equipment to all Jewish citizens but withheld them from their Arab population. Fascism in action. How did they make sure the Arabs didnt get them? Did they make them wear a Cresent on their shirts?

Blowing up women and children who have been specifically targeted is hardly a kick in the shin, and and you attempt to make light of the fact that it is not Goliath who is starting the fight but rather defending himself. The strength of the person attacking him is irrelevant.

And if even if Goliath has the patience of a saint, he would not allow himself to be kicked in the shin hundreds of times without crushing the person who is doing it. Hit me and I'll hit you harder. Hit me again, and I'll hit you still harder. Hit me a hundred more times and I'll kill you and be done with the hitting.

Also the guy who kicks Goliath runs and hides behind a bunch of women and children who HE (the kicker) has put into danger. The kicker alone is responsible for any pain, death, or destruction that harms them.

The kicker has no valid room to complain if he keeps kicking. If he wants to stop getting beaten badly by Goliath, all he has to do is stop kicking.

We debunked this two years ago.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/arti...m?articleid=439

"The usual fatality count quoted in news articles presents an inaccurate and distorted picture of the al-Aqsa conflict, exaggerating Israel’s responsibility for the death of noncombatant civilians. For example, our database shows a total of 561 Israelis killed, compared to around 1499 Palestinians, up to 30 June 2002 – numbers in general agreement with media reports (see Graph 1.1).

"But such numbers distort the true picture: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel. Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 579 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, compared to 433 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians."

.

I don't think they try very hard though.


http://electronicIntifada.net/artman/uploads/rach.jpg

http://electronicIntifada.net/artman/uploads/rach1.jpg

http://electronicIntifada.net/artman/uploads/rach3.jpg

Don't fault Israel for having more firepower when someone starts shit with 'em. If you try to shoot me with a 9mm, you can't complain when I put a hole through you large enough to see daylight with a Desert Eagle .50 cal

They saw the tank coming and didn't move. That's not murder, it's suicide.

Whichever way you look at it the Israelis have killed more Palestinian civilians than they have lost on their own side. I dont deny that every single one of those Israeli deaths is a tragic loss. Nor do I deny that the Israeli people are living day after day with an unremitting fear of suicide attacks. ....The suffering of the Palestinian people however, is so extreme as to make most of the world look on in horror at what is being done.

The media reportage in the West is routinely accused by Israel of being biased against them yet outside of America and Israel most people consider that the media is unfairly levelling the situation , suggesting it is a 50- 50 line of fault when in reality the Israeli state is conducting a campaign of terror and pacification of a conquered people.

You only have to watch a little footage of Israeli soldiers as they pace up and down exuding menace to quell the growing storm to see this is a force policing a different people to their own.

You only have to read the reports coming in from Human Rights watch, amnesty international and other NGO's to see that the Palestinians are being grievously provoked. Whatis the Palestinian child to think when they have seen their brothers dragged from their beds at night? What about the children who were present when one of their schoolmates was shot , quite coldly by an Israeli sniper? Or the Child who was targetted in his yard?
Qossay Abu 'Aisha, 12, was playing in his yard in the Askar neighbourhood of Nablus. The yard is surrounded by a two-metre high tin fence. Israeli soldiers, part of the force that has reoccupied the city, opened fire, punctured the fence and hit him with two bullets, killing him instantly

What about the Palestinians whose villages are cut off from their workplaces by road blocks? Whose wives are unable to travel in an ambulance to the hostpital during birth complications because Ambulances have been refused access to their area?

Radar screaming about Israel's right to kick the shit out of the Palestinians if they want on account of the Militants using them as shields does not in anyway lessen my view that the Palestinian people are a conquered race who are being humiliated and tormented daily by their conqueror. So..what are they to do about it? They tried to beg help of the world and we turned our backs on them. They cannot fight the army soldier for soldier because that requires an army, and an army requires resources, funding, equipment, suplies....How can a people whose lands have been so segmented from one another that they cannot travel from one part of Palestine to another without passing Israeli roadlocks possibly gather a conventional army to rival their conqueror's?

They cannot even effect basic law and order because their security forces and goverment infrastructure has been decimated

The Israelis admit they do not check houses before they bulldoze them . There are cases of houses coming down with people still in them. One woman ....a pregnant woman stood in front of the bulldozers. She thought the fact she was pregnant would afford her a measure of protection. How wrong she was. How wrong she was to think the Israeli army would even view her as as human life worth saving. Palestinian lives are worth less than Israelis. Israeli soldiers would rather kill a dozen palestinian civilians if there is even a hint that ther may be danger ahead to their troops. There is no sense whatsoever in the reports coming out of Janin and other hotspots that the Israeli army make any attempt to safeguard the lives of palestinian civilians , certainly not women and children.

Damn suicides.
http://www.peking.org/tiananmen.jpg

suspicion is growing amongst many that Israel is killiong palestinians and then lying to say it was in response to militant fire, or that reports of miltant hamas activiy in that area provoked their attacks. There are even some human rights campaigners who believe that the Israeli government is bringing undesirable political palestinian figures to palestinian houses, executing them and then claiming a firefight to cover it up. Then they show lots of footage of the bullet ridden activists and Israel feels a little safer for an hour or so.....
Of course thats just for ya low level Hamas activists.....people who are politically active....Not necessarily the big fish..No for the big fish they whip out the rockets....Rockets against a man in a wheelchair.....or the devastation of a block of flats because it houses a militant leader.....Sledgehammer to crack a walnut. What a disgraceful lack of regard for human life. And if Radar comes back with the lack of regard that the militants showed, the difference is one is a group of militant extremists at the margins of the fight for freedom and national identity andthe other is a STATE army. The State of Israel is engaged in the slaughter of civilians in what it considers to be its own lands. .....The State of Israel conducts reprisals against the general population of teeming refugee camps/towns.

Whichever way you look at it the Israelis have killed more Palestinian civilians than they have lost on their own side.

It doesn't matter because it's not a simple numbers game. It's also an ethics game. You keep leaving out that the houses they thoughtlessly demolish are those of the families of the suicide bombers, which they do because there is no other deterrence known. Rachel Corrie was defending against Israel closing off tunnels into Gaza through which arms were transferred. You leave this shit out why? Details not important?

Yah, my bad. I tend to go for broad strokes andthen go find the details later ;P

As to the families of the suicide bombers....given that this hasnt actually acted as a deterrent ( unless I am very much mistaken) why make them suffer more than they already have? They just lost a family member to the war. For those families their loved one died for their country just as any soldier in a recognised state.

I dont see that the Palestinians have much else to throw at their oppressor except themselves. That they target soft targets may be due to the fact that they can make no mark against such a strong and well equipped army. If it is legitimate for Israel to disregard Palestinian lives if it serves their purpose ( Israeli Security) why do Palestinians not have the same right to diregard Israeli civilians lives? Why is it alright that the Israeli army put the safety of their soldiers before Palestinian lives, but Palestinian militants are supposed to avoid killing the only targets they have the capability to reach and refrain from conducting the only kind of attack that hurts Israel. Since there is clearly a war going on why do we consider one side criminal and the other not?

Its a messy situation. I dont know what I migt think if I was living in the region. Fortunately i am not and am therefore able to take a step back and see that there are two "nations" fightng a war of survival against each other. If thats the case. Then I genuinely see the Palestinian militants as soldiers defending their homeland. They say all is fair in love and war . If Israel wants the suicide bombings to stop, perhaps it should cease launching offensives at the other side's "army".

I will add to this a little caveat. I dont see the death of an Israeli civilian as a good thing. Its another lost life in a region that has seen far too much of death and loss on all sides. I also recognise how close to the surface the fear of anti semitism must be. Indeed I think fascism in Europe is rising. There is reason to fear the rise of anti semitism in the world generally. But the Palestinians also have a right to their fear. They are suffering

......actually
She was with other activists from the International Solidarity Movement trying to stop the demolition of a Palestinian building in the Rafah refugee camp.

(taken from the BBC News website )
The Israelis say such tactics are necessary because Palestinian gunmen use the structures as cover to shoot at their troops patrolling in the area.

Ms Corrie - who was wearing an orange fluorescent jacket to alert the bulldozer drivers to her presence in pictures taken by her colleagues ..... had previously described the hazards of her work.

An email despatch details a confrontation on 14 February between another bulldozer and her own group, which she refers to as the "internationals".

"The internationals stood in the path of the bulldozer and were physically pushed with the shovel backwards, taking shelter in a house.

"The bulldozer then proceeded on its course, demolishing one side of the house with the internationals inside," she wrote in the email distributed by the International Solidarity Movement.


Ms Corrie's mother Cindy said her daughter had spent nights sleeping at wells to protect them from bulldozers.

"She lived with families whose houses were threatened with demolition and today as we understand it, she stood for three hours trying to protect a house."

They do bulldoze the homes of suicide bombers' families....But they also bulldoze the houses of people who arent the families of suicide bombers ( yet)

and so far, how much of a deterrent would you say this posthumous punishment is proving to be?

Let's see if The Evasive Wifebuyer will reveal just how the land became Israel's...this should be good.