So...is this then 'Mormon Porn'?


morn?

pormon?

Well, if you're not going to practice, how do you expect to get better at it?

My brother just returned from a trip to Honduras. Apparently the Mormon missionaries there build state-of-the-art sports centers, and then tell the kids they can't use them unless they convert.

Mormons: the original Scientologists.

OK, maybe not original, but definitely ancestors.

My god, that's just plain sick.:vomit:

I lived around a bunch of Mormons growing up...they were mostly medical students and their families from out West (Utah and Washington State, IIRC). Nice folks for the most part.

Having said that, they may be the most cult-like of the Christian religions...

Wolf, was it you that was telling me about the Hawaiian cultural center and its Mormon connection?

You would think that customer service would have improved over the past 3 years due to people trying to hang on to their jobs. It has, but not by much. Profit over customer service, it would seem...

Oh, Alan...my condolences regarding your aunt.

Yes, it was.

To recap for everybody else ... a friend of mine travelled to Hawaii, and came back telling exciting tales of a "Hawaiian and Polynesian Cultural Center" that she and her daughters had been to. In addition to showing me their own photographs of the place, she had the brochure. I flipped through to the back and saw the LDS info, and replied "Oh, so you went to a museum which shows element of the traditional culture that the Mormons are working so hard to eradicate?"

She had noticed the Mormon stuff, but never really made the connection. She's a good hearted woman, but not all that swift on the uptake. She was once astonished to find that before Jesus, pretty much everyone was pagan. Blew her mind.

Anyway ... here's an article on the Hawaiian Mormons:

http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/oahu.html

And here's what they have to say about themselves:

http://w3.byuh.edu/devotionals/media...924britsch.htm

Well, someone from Cinemark got the letter, and e-mailed me this last Friday (Jan 11, 2004):

Hmm, I did ask specifically for a phone call, and not an e-mail, but we'll see how/if Troy decides to contact me. Two weeks isn't too bad a response time, either. What I suspect is that old Troy-Boy will e-mail a nice, sincere non-apology ("I regret that you misunderstood me," or "I'm sorry if you didn't understand.") We'll see.

you see, here's the problem:

this person is Troy's boss.

Well, my primary motivation was for Troy's superiors to be aware of his shameful behavior, and I did get that. I also wanted to be a part of the mechanism of Karma, to teach our dear Mr. Taylor that being an ass has consequences. Like I said in the letter, I wasn't looking for movie passes, but a personal apology, by phone, from each individual.

I think I'll wait to reserve judgement until I hear what Troy has to say (assuming he ever does contact me). If he offers a half-hearted bullshit apology, I'll reply to the regional manager saying "Nice effort, but this failure to follow through on my request once again demonstrates your company's lack of customer service." If he seems to really feel "regrettable" (cough), then I'll probably resume my business there.

It's the nicest theater in town by a good margin, so I'd like to take my business back there, but I have to follow my principles, damnit.

I just got this e-mail:

Pretty lame. "I'm sorry the situation occured" is a far cry from taking responsibility. At no point does he actually admit to any substantial fault, it's just fluffy bullshit. I was thinking I'd follow up with Region Leader, Mr. Phillips, and say that while I appreciate the response, it falls quite short of my original, simple request of a personal apology. What do you guys think?

let him up

Why do you think so? The man was a collosal ass, and offers little by way of apology. To say "I'm sorry the situation occured" is NOT the same thing as "I'm sorry for my behavior."

That wasn't the point at which he caused the problem though, that was just how he introduced himself into the problem. True, the problem would not have occurred if he hadn't walked up and asked what was going on, but he was well aware of the circumstances when he insinuated that I was lying to him. His "admission" implies that he was a victim of circumstance, not the wrong-doer.

Take the passes and a baseball bat.

Here Alan, let me translate it into Sycamore-speak for you:

Mr. Bellows:

I'm really sorry about what happened 12/20/03. Believe me, I feel bad...my boss ripped me a brand new asshole for Christmas.

I decided to be a jackass and stick my nose into a situation without knowing what was up. It wound up going straight into the shitter and I made myself look like a real jackass.

If you send me your address, I'll throw some free passes your way. It's hard enough doing business in the State of Utah, and the last thing I need is to be sitting in my trailer park collecting puny ass unemployment checks because I got a case of the stupids for one night.

Please come back...dear God, if you don't come back, I am so fucked.

Sincerely,
Troy Taylor
General Manager

On the one hand, I have to agree with you, HP. They haven't demonstrated that they understand in the least why you were angry.

On the other hand, how far do you want to take this. If you go back to Ms. Phillips and still don't get the apology you deserve, are you going to stop patronage?

At this point, maybe you'd do better to call the regional office and ask for Ms. Phillips? At least you'd know whether you're being blown off.

Yeah, take the tickets. You're not going to make the guy have a "holy shit, I'm an asshole!" epiphany.

yeah. collossal ass. whatever. Do you think he cares if you come back? I'd BET he'd prefer you didn't. Who's losing out here? You say you like the theatre. Yet, you challenge the first two people that reccomend forgiveness. You're still mad. Try letting the other party that accompanies you choose the location. Don't take the tickets, though. And be sure to walk up to troy and greet him. THEN you'll get your apology. Albeit lame and noncommital.

he is probably completely humiliated, and is trying to save himself from a lifetime of viagra. his boss knows, someone else knows, he has to apologize like a child...good. he'll remember this wash of embarassment later. take the passes...get some for the rest of us, too. maybe in your return you could mention...creatively...that he didn't really take responsibility, but you know that's hard for a swaggering dick like him. that way you get the apology, the movie passes..and the last shot.

dar

syc....... this is perfect. :thumb: :thumb:
two thumbs way way up!!!!!!!

Tell me what you think of this, I was thinking I'd email it to Troy, and CC the regional manager:
Too harsh? Not harsh enough? I keep gauging my reaction against you guys because it still makes my blood boil to remember him being belligerent to my wife... so I want to make sure I'm not overreacting.

By the way... Very nice translation, Syc. Hilarious.

If you witnessed the way he treated me, and my wife, you'd agree. He was rude to her, and she didn't even know what was going on. "Collossal ass" is a very apt description.

i'm not trying to belittle your reaction, alan. I'm just saying that it shouldn't matter to you that much. meaning that if you carry your anger about this, your load is heavier. I think you did the right thing in arguing with troy instead of being intimidated, and I also think it was wise to alert his superiors, but beyond that, you're just spinning your wheels. let it go...deep breaths......in....out.....in...out.

Everybody has their hot button(s), mine just happens to be when someone questions my integrity. Sure, it may not bother YOU so much, but I'm sure there are a few things which would bother you more than they would me. Whether it should bother me so much is completely subjective. My only issue is that he seems to be representing himself as a victim of circumstance, but I want his superiors to be aware that he acted like a complete asshole under the circumstances. They should be aware of their employees' failings, and work to remedy them. I don't hate the man's guts, but he did toss down quite a a few seeds of spite, so I think I owe him a good part of the harvest.
Yeah, super. Didn't you just say you weren't belittling my reaction?

Take the passes or not, one line max. I think no comment is the best tact. Another letter and Troy has fuel to show Mr. Kim that youre a "hot pastrami" and argumentative. unpleasable.
"See I tried to be nice and that guy is just nuts." No matter the circumstances, it'd look like that. Dont give Troy the out. Go high road.

Why is your integrity a hot button? I'm not being smart aleky, I have my buttons too and its interesting to look at the emotions behind them. Its good, I think, to be reminded that you know your value. Its not an emergency. What others say or think is really, truly, nothing to you.

That's a question with a truly complex answer. I'm not sure if I can answer effectively.

Some people say that they don't care what anybody thinks about them, but I think such people are fooling themselves. On some level, conscious or otherwise, they care about the opinions of others. One of the easiest, and most ironic, ways to prove this is to watch such a person defend their "I don't care what people think" attitude when you question it. They won't necessarily get emotional, but they will make a significant effort to make you believe them. Why try to convince anybody of anything if you don't care what they think?

Humans are social animals, and interaction with others is a necessity for survival, helpful for finding happiness, and obviously unavoidable in procreating. I assert that a healthy psyche MUST value the input of others, though the weight given to any outside opinion should vary depending on the source's trustworthiness, awareness of key facts, state of mind, etc. Society is the product of opinions, and society gives us a yardstick against which to measure our success, allowing us to strive for improvment. Everybody wants to have value.

So... I think one's hot buttons are tied to those personal traits which one holds most valueable, because for another person to question those traits is to risk losing one's perceived value. Basically, for the benefit of my own self-worth, it is important to me that I am trusted... so to question my integrity triggers a strong defense mechanism.

Another possibility... trust is a kind of power (not in a negative sense). If everyone trusts me, I have greater power, because my word is enough to get me much of I want and need. For someone to call my trustworthiness into question jeopardizes that hard-won power to some degree, so my reflex is to defend it with an equal but opposite intensity.

Too deep? Sorry.

OK, MY BAD.

that part was just to lighten the post a little.

[sarcasm] maybe you could make this your personal mission and get the sonofabitch fired. I wonder if he has kids? If you can get me a little bit more info on him, I can help you trash his credit rating. Then maybe we could seduce his wife. oh, and how about getting the IRS to take a nice long look at him. I know someone there. he'll be suicidal in a matter of months. will you feel better then? [/sarcasm]

At this point, everyone who matters trusts your integrity, but some are becoming wary of your capacity for overreaction.

You have humiliated him multiple times, Pastrami-San. You have won. You need not gut him. Allow yourself the enjoyment of victory. Take in a nice film perhaps.

I dunno, UT. I just got of the phone with Troy and he said Allen Bellows is a big fat liar and he never went to troy's theater or wrote a letter.:eek: Just kidding, Pas. I agree with what Warch said, but I also know somethings you have to pursue peace of mind. Only you know what that entails.:)

Ok. I'm hearing Mr. Miyagi. Wax on. Wax off. Wax on. Wax off. :)

excuse me sir, but if the VP is such a VIP shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? otherwise it could leak out to the VC and he'd be listed an MIA and then we'd all be put on KP. - good morning vietnam:D

HP you've got the upper hand. take the free passes or don't take them. i like your reasoning that you will visit other theaters as well. as my boss used to say (and still does) "it only takes one 'aw shit' to fuck up a hundred 'atta-boys'"

Not as sick as the Europeans telling everyone everywhere to become Christians or die, though.

Well, since my last post was obviously waaayyyy too far away from the part I was quoting to even make any sense, I should probably try to get on topic (I mean the most recent topic in this rather versatile thread...and HP, many condolences on your Aunt's passing. I trust she is on the other side, smiling down on all of us, especially you).

Anyway, if you aren't satisfied with what the two corporate drones said, then by all means, carry on. The reason that their messages admit no personal responsibility is that they aren't allowed to admit that. It might open the door for some sort of legal action, so no one is going to openly admit any dereliction of duty, aggression or anything else that might even remotely be able to be construed as actionable. Remember, we award millions of dollars to people who are too stupid to know that hot coffee is hot these days. Who's to say some jury who had also been mistreated while standing in line for a film wouldn't give you a few thou just to get even?

Bottom line is that 'service' business no longer provide services. They herd cattle, extracting cash from their hides at every opportunity. Where you go to see a movie is immaterial to them, because you are merely one of the herd. Very few movie theaters go out of business because they treat people poorly. They go out of business because the demographic of the area they are in changes, or their technology and accoutrements are superceded by other, newer facilities. Therefore, you simply don't matter to them, and the fact that you got any letters at all is pretty remarkable.

I was also extremely impressed by the literacy level of the boss. Christ, I'll be he makes $200k+, and he can't even express himself. His minimum wage secretary was probably out for the day or something. I used to work for a guy who was a millionaire, yet couldn't spell correctly any word over five letters long.

Keep nailing them...go over the boss guy's head. Leave Vibram sole prints on his scalp. Bitch until *you* feel vindicated.

Perhaps you're right. But I don't want to be guilty of underreacting, either. I feel that the part where he called me a liar is pretty much satisfied, but his treatment of my wife still bugs me.

I don't think you can accurately judge whether I'm overreacting, though.... Keep in mind that you got the nice, filtered, third-person perspective of what happened... you didn't have to see that smug, superior sonuvabitch basically call you a liar to your face. You didn't have him standing over your wife in a movie theater, threatening to throw you out if you don't apologize, when he was the one who wronged first, and refuses to apologize himself, denying that he'd done anything wrong. All this a few days before Christmas.

ljim, I know you were being sarcastic, but maybe the shithead should lose his job. Maybe he pulls this shit all the time. I'm not going to try to get him fired, but I will persue this to my satisfaction, and if that results in him losing his job, then so be it. If I treated a customer like he treated me, I'd deserve to get fired. That's just the way business works when it comes to customer service.

I haven't decided how to reply exactly, if at all, but I do intend to refuse the tickets. My principles can't be bought off.

Of course that would give him 24-7 for a nut job revenge scenerio...

Looking in, I think you got your pound of flesh. If he does it again, the paper trail exists for a firing. You've done your part, if this was out of character for him, he's been warned. If this is normal behavior, they'll get rid of him.

If it doesn't bug her, the problem remains solved.

In fact the only problem that remains is in your mind, and it continues to do terrible damage there, far beyond the initial disrespect which is now well in the past.

ya know, this is the kind of thing that used to get settled by a good ole fashioned fist fight. But for SOME reason, that kind of behavior is FROWNED upon nowadays. go figger

That sort of thing works if both guys are about the same build. Really nothing gets decided, but they both get their agression worked out.

But I'm on the small side. Odds are against me in a fistfight.

Hey, maybe you could challenge him to a Quakefest and frag him into slag.

That poor woman. All she wanted was a cup of coffee, and now she's a pariah.

Originally posted by jinx
That "poor" woman sued because she spilled coffee on herself.

She deserves to be a pariah - she is a symbol of a new social phenomenon whereby the responsibility of the irresponsible is transferred to the nearest deep pocket by 12 neanderthal jurors and unethical attorneys.

I don't blame the woman for spilling coffee in her lap. I do it all the time. I do, however, blame her, her attorney and a broken legal system (that the trial lawyers want to stay broke) for basically stealing three million dollars in plain sight.

And I'm supposed to feel sorry for her? How's that? :confused:

I don't know that you're supposed to feel sorry for - I feel sorry for her though. I'd feel bad for anyone that spent a week in the hospital and had to have skin grafts on their nether regions because they got some coffee at the drive thru. That would just really suck.

But it was still as a consequence of her own stupidity.

The situation evokes some measure of pity, but no genuine sympathy. And, because of goddamned Stella, I can't get a decently hot cup of coffee anywhere.

I also don't feel bad for the shithead who lost his fingers because he failed to follow the instructions for clearing clogged, wet grass from his lawnmower blade.

"Turn the fucking thing off" is not rocket science, nor is "don't stick your hand near the sharp thing."

having worked in restaurants, i happen to know WHY McDonalds coffee used to be so hot.. the hotter the water, the less grounds you need to extract the same flavor level. breing coffee at 180 deg, is a corner cutting tactic, and it bit them.....now, in order to provide the same flavor with 140 deg water, they need more grounds/cup. i dont, however think 3mil was appropriate. maybe 1/2 mil? they should have asked me.

Aside from going to McD's in the first place, I don't see what she did that was so stupid. Everyone spills their drink occasionally, that's klutz not supid isn't it?

Klutz stupid is sitting in the passenger seat with the cup of blazingly hot coffee, which is known and expected to be blazingly hot, clutched in between one's thighs.

THAT is how stella injured herself.

She might as well have sued the vehicle manufacturer over the lack of cupholders.

It WAS all Stella's fault.

The original jury award of 2.7 million in punative damages was appealed and reduced to $480,000.

No. I don't agree.

So does it follow that if it does still bug her, that the problem remains unsolved? She still feels some lingering annoyance as a result of that evening, and she too felt that his letter was an unsatisfying non-apology.

It's no matter now though... I sent an e-mail declining the passes and telling them that I'd resume my patronage at their theater, though no longer exclusively. It's basically over.
Judging by the reactions like this one, I think that I have done an inadequate job of illustrating how big an asshole Troy was that evening. I find it hard to believe that this was an isolated incident due to a bad night, because he was being so vindictive about it. He had several opportunities to resolve the situation, but instead he compounded the problem, and pursued it to the point that other people in the theater-- strangers-- were literally shouting at him to leave us alone.

Personally, I let things stew in my mind until I am satisfied with the result, or until enough time has passed that the edge has worn off. "Forgive and forget" is a nice theory, but it discourages consequences.

Imagine if you were having a pleasant evening walk with your significant other, and a well-dressed man approaches you and asks for some money. You refuse. A few minutes later, he appears from behind, and tries to make off with your wife/girlfriend's purse. After a tug-of-war, you manage to get it back. The police are nearby, and stop the perpetrator. A few minutes later, an officer comes over and says, "Well, he feels bad about what happened, and he says that if you'd only given him some money, he wouldn't have had to try to steal her purse. He doesn't understand how it got to that point. He says his wealthy father will send you $20 if you just forget the whole thing."

Would you press charges?

That's cool.

Phew!


It's interesting though, that the 'admit no liability' tactic that was just being discussed seemed to have hurt McD's in the eyes of the jurors;

"The testimony of Mr. Appleton, the McDonald's executive, didn't help the company, jurors said later. He testified that McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious burns, but hadn't consulted burn experts about it. He also testified that McDonald's had decided not to warn customers about the possibility of severe burns, even though most people wouldn't think it possible. Finally, he testified that McDonald's didn't intend to change any of its coffee policies or procedures, saying, "There are more serious dangers in restaurants."

Mr. Elliott, the juror, says he began to realize that the case was about "callous disregard for the safety of the people."
Next for the defense came P. Robert Knaff, a human-factors engineer who earned $15,000 in fees from the case and who, several jurors said later, didn't help McDonald's either. Dr. Knaff told the jury that hot-coffee burns were statistically insignificant when compared to the billion cups of coffee McDonald's sells annually.

To jurors, Dr. Knaff seemed to be saying that the graphic photos they had seen of Mrs. Liebeck's burns didn't matter because they were rare. "There was a person behind every number and I don't think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that," says juror Betty Farnham.
When the panel reached the jury room, it swiftly arrived at the conclusion that McDonald's was liable. "The facts were so overwhelmingly against the company," says Ms. Farnham. "They were not taking care of their consumers."
Then the six men and six women decided on compensatory damages of $200,000, which they reduced to $160,000 after determining that 20% of the fault belonged with Mrs. Liebeck for spilling the coffee."

http://www.vanfirm.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm

I don't think you're overreacting.

But there is one important thing to remember, which I believe I have the experience to impart, based on my 7 years of service in retail.

The employees at the theater don't care about you. They will never care about you, or your petty problems, and you can't make them. They're minumum wage workers who don't get any extra money by giving you good service. There's simply nothing in it for them. There's nothing you can do to change this.

I, of course, sympathise with you completely. But I know from experience that there are just so damned many customers, that employees typically just dehumanize them and see them as sheep.

So, I think your rage is completely justified. But realize that after a certain point, your efforts are fairly pointless.

Well then, clearly revenge is the only answer.

Determine when he's in the place, and then write another customer service letter, in an entirely different style, from someone other than you, with misspellings, a different address (use a friend's), and with a story based on the time of his shift.

Creativity is encouraged, but make it believeable.

The next reaming will be one he doesn't expect.

So... to exact my revenge upon Troy for (among other things) questioning my integrity, I should... sacrifice my integrity? I hope you were trying to use irony to make a point there, but if so, I still disagree with the point. You seem to be attaching false motives to my actions. Troy took some really nasty actions, and I want his employer to have an equal but opposite reaction. That's justice, or karma...not revenge. Some people don't make a distinction, but there is one, and it's important.

I don't want to ruin the guy's life, but I want him to face the consequences for his actions. From what I've seen, I doubt he got chewed out about this, he probably just got a mention of it from his boss. If I'm right, then perhaps providing more details to his boss would result in the justified chewing-out. If I'm wong, if he DID get chewed out, they're not going to chew him out again over the same incident.

But it sounds like you've already decided unwaveringly that I'm overreacting, based on incomplete, third-party information. And that's OK, I'll just continue to disagree. But like I said, It's over anyway.
I too have some experience in customer service, from several different jobs, and my experience has shown me that in most companies, somebody cares how the customers are treated, the trick is to find who that person is, and impart your experience to them.

So, what DO you want, HP? were you hoping we'd all just say " you did the right thing, good job" ?

What would have to happen for you to be appeased?