Oh, I disagree. What about that initial apprehension? It's not meaningless. Some people will never post because of that initial apprehension. Some people will still have it every time they post.

And even if you personally don't have those kinds of feelings, it's pretty obvious that some other people do, and that it affects the community.

Plus, this is subtle, but notice how all this stuff happened after moderator UT actually did institute harsher moderation and actually disabled some accounts from posting. I may have missed something in all my reading but I think some of this stuff even happened in the same thread where this became apparent.

      I think that a whole lot of the fear of going against UT isn't about his ownership status. He might run the place but most lurk before they ever post and should know he doesn't kick people easily. More, I think going against UT can be a bit daunting because his arguements tend to be solid, researched and well thought out. This doesn't mean he's always right, but it does mean that if you disagree you better be prepared with solid reasoning. But there are several people on the board of similar standing as far as that goes.
      What's more, I think having THE Mod in regular discussions makes the site less formal. UT less overlordish, if you will. I can see your point Dag, but consider the cost of a mysterious Mod that only steps in when decisions have to be made. It dehumanizes him, and through him the board. As far as people being intimidated, I think the stronger and smarter ones won't back down, even if they fear being kicked. Speaking for myself, those are the people I most want here anyway.
      As far as the harsher moding goes, it was formally called for, (by Dave actually) and generally approved beforehand. Dummy accounts were getting out of hand, a response was called for. If you don't like the response, then forgive UT for being human and doing the best he can. Overall though, I'd say the response was called for, by those of us that use the board, not some heavy-handed slapping down of rules from above.

I've followed this ordeal and have gone back several times to re-read the matter at hand, and I still don't know why everyone's got their panties in a bunch. IMO, dave is being a pussy, sycamore didn't do anything out of his ordinary, but got way pissed at the fallout, and UT got dragged into it b/c it's his board. Other than that, this whole thing is rather petty and sophomoric. If dave wants to leave, freakin let him, I have a feeling he'll miss this place a whole lot more than it will him.

Keep on keepin on.


GBA

DNK

wait a minute.

Toad knows when to get heavy. I like it that he participates in discussions, has opinions, regrets, concerns, feelings. Just like if he was a real person. I came on this site thru the image of the day, but the thread that KEPT me here (I'll assume for the sake of argument that the fact that I AM here is a positive) was toad's emotional distance thread. I instantly cared about him, and the other people obviously do too. I understand that he got a little wacky with the antisocial comments he made regarding his and dave's friendship unravelling, but I don't believe that that is the way he REALLY feels .....at least most of the time. He is an important contributor to the discussions and most of the time the fact that he IS the MOD doesn't come into the equation. If you are afraid that what you might have to say would irk tony, just read some of these other fuckers' posts, and settle down, beavis. he doesn't break balls or flex. wtf?

And part of that respect is being able to tell someone that they're buttheads....and allowing them the same freedom. ju, that's something that we've had........... but we work it out. (although, this time you've gone too far...)

ya know... i know you guys are all cyberpeople and none of you are real... but there's a half a dozen or so of you cyberpeople that i really like...syc, UT, dave. give a little room for crisis, and let everyone feel maligned..and then cut it out.

keep peace in the family, as my mother would say.


dar

ya know............. this is the perfect response.

now -- let's have some chocolate and play nice again.

or...you guys play nice again, and i'll have the chocolate.

or..... play anyway you want, and i'll be over here with a box of godiva.

rats.

      DNK, I've been finding myself saying in IM's and PM's to various people that I believe the stress predates the eye/unemployment thing. Thing is, since the relationship between these three was only partially on the board we won't catch it all. Missing details if you will. I also still say that what is on the board shows problems before this.

      Dar, it may be a bit late for that. Um... the playing part. The chocolates and tights part is still open....

With over 800 posts to your name, I think it's fair to say that you're a regular.

I'm sure you are right, with the pre-exisitng conditions of the said three, but I'm a little confused as to why so many people give such a large fuck about it. I suppose my ignorance can be written off as a somewhat newbie, only being around for about 6 months, but it still amazes me the amout of effort being shown. Again, petty and sophomoric.

But thanks for addressing my semi-rant.


GBA

DNK

      DNK, no problem. I don't know if you realize this, but most of the regular posters are from the philly. Important 'cause most of them have gathered a few times. They aren't just faceless names to each other. They're real people that have spoken and hung out. So it can be more personnal than if they just knew each other by screen name.
      Also, you hang here a while and the "community" you so often hear about around here becomes more real. You get to know peoples styles and have a sense of their personality. These are three of the biggest posters around. Plus they were friends on the side.
      The Cellar will be just fine. But it definately changed for those of us in for the long haul. That's what the big deal is.

Dar, for you mesh pantyhose but not tights.:D

Whit, You've been spot on in the last few posts. UT is an awesome adversary on the boards. I posted one time my admiration of his resourses and ability and my trepidation at going up against him in an argument. But when the time came that I disagreed (WalMart) I really didn't fear repercussions because I'd seen him always fight fair. I think sometimes he bends over backwards to be fair and that's got to lead to some frustration for him.
So we've witnessed a great pissing contest and everyone got wet. Since there are no winners in any pissing contest I guess we all lost. I'll miss Dave, I thought he was an asset, but the Cellar will continue to evolve. So lets get back to arguing about stuff and not people (except pols). :cool:

Sorry, UT, but you will have to try harder than that to fool me.

No, I didn't realize this. And yes, I see how this complicates the situation.

I'm recognize the 'community', but I didn't realize it was taken so seriously. I mean, I have real life issues that FAR outweigh anything done here, as I'm sure most do, but since they were "friends" on the side, this crossed over.


Well, whatever. I'm not losing sleep, just time at work. Hee heee.


GBA

DNK

Well, naturally we all have real-life problems that outweigh the happenings here. But that doesn't preclude us from being concerned and affected by what happens here.

I guess it's kinda like reading a series of books you enjoy, only to find that the author takes the plot and characters someplace you don't want it to go, and you stop enjoying the story as much. Big deal? No, it's a freakin' book. But that doesn't mean the author's Lucasizing* of the story it won't bother you a little.

I enjoy this community, and so anything that deteriorates from it is troubling, though not in any life-altering way.




* - Lu-ca-size: v To destroy a good thing by diluting it's quality, particularly in an attempt to increase marketing opportunities or for the sake of "political correctness."

Excellent parallel. I overstand.



GBA

DNK

Actually, I, Tony, operate the entire system. All of the posts under all of the usernames are written by me. I find it very entertaining to put together all the different personalities.

And even though it's been lots of fun just writing everything for myself, I have lived in hope that one day some unsuspecting soul would stumble across the place and join me and my several thousand alter egos. And it finally happened! So thanks, OnyxCougar, and I hope you're enjoying your time in my little universe.

Ah, shit...now I'm really confused. Does this mean UT is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder, or does it mean that *I* am?

(this post was edited to correct the psychological malady identified herein before Wolf took me to task for making a common misstatement)

Dave's gone?

Has anyone volunteered to start calling people assholes and morons yet? We're gonna need those bases covered, I think.

Dave was almost always a dickhead with a point to make. That's why I liked him. If you could read through the troll-like form of expression, you could see that he was being rather satirical with it all. Now, most people who do that end up making instant enemies, but with Dave, it was usually handled pretty damn well. That takes special talent, and I give him high marks for having done so well for so long with it before a pooch finally got screwed, for whatever reason.

You could, however, knock me down with a feather that it was with Sycamore on the other end. That, I would have bet money against.

.       It means we are Ep. I'm happy to clear that up for you as I'm the sane personality

Only if you displease me sufficiently that it becomes necessary to make you do so.

Don't sweat it, dude.

Thoroughly fucked up is still thoroughly fucked up, no matter how you spell it ... ;)



* Just in case you thought I wasn't paying attention ... as of DSM-IV the name was changed to "Dissociative Identity Disorder". The exact reasoning behind that is unclear, but my own personal opinion was that unscrupulous therapists who were milking the cash-cow of treating people with FAKE MPD needed a new name to explain themselves and hide their unethical treatment practices.

It might "take a villiage"

I'll volunteer to be the part that sees through to the heart of the matter, and presents it upside down with a backhand. You do all of the lengthy fillibusterish diatribes. FnF will be the jerk off asshat.(whether or not he is aware of this conglomeration):) Slang, can you do the research that no one wants to argue with because it would involve reading all of the shit you just based your argument on?

OK, so we need a nitpicker to correct spelling and grammar. xoBruce? can we count on you?
and then we'll need a nerd that is addicted to video games...volunteers? cougar? no? you don't want any part of this? ok, fine. anyone else? what have i forgotten?

oh, and we'll need a name to log in under, and a way of communicating with each other. I suggest short wave radio spoken in the cherokee tongue. or possibly passing notes.

oh, and spode, what the fuck does " a pooch finally got screwed" mean exactly. Is this a KC-ism?

I guess you never saw The Right Stuff, jim. It's an expression referring to an extreme faux pas ... with the implication that you did so all by your lonesome.

thanks. i never DID see that movie.

You have to. Excitement, just the right amount of humor (if you don't laugh your ass off during the Alan Sheppard waiting for the launch scene there is something wrong with you), and a buncha really good actors.

I'd lik to hep butt I'm unwurthie.

Actually, I think Zippy is perfect for the role.

Thats zippyT butthead !!

And i must respectfuly decline as my work schedual is not verry reliable , and my spelling , grammer and diction is wholey inadaquit .
Thanks for the nomination though .

I've only been posting to the Cellar for about a decade, so I'll throw in a few words...

There are parts of this involving offline relationships between our protagonists, and since I don't know the whole story there (i.e. all I know is what I've been told and what I've seen posted, and the Rashomon effect applies), I'm staying out of that mess as much as I can.

It's obvious that the issues go far beyond the eye-joke/unemployment chatter that started this mess, because I've read the threads a few times, and it's _chatter_. It's the old back-of-the-bus gotcha-last stuff where the next target's the mother of whoever laughs loudest. Certain people are reacting like someone's pouring hot sand in their urethras, and untrained observers like myself don't and won't get it.

Honestly, I agree with this. I've been a Cellar denizen for at least ten years (I remember being in Ruthie's fantasy baseball league in '94), including back when it was strictly a Philly-area dialup BBS. In that time, I've interacted with several members outside of the Cellar itself; I've traded games with one or two, shared a hacked newsreader binary with one, had one hook me up with a job interview, and received an old EPROM burner as a gift from yet another. No regrets, and many benefits.

However, I have yet to meet a Cellar member face-to-face (despite GTGs, a dinner invitation many years ago, and similar things), and call me shallow if you like, but I haven't lost any sleep over that.

It's not that I'm actively avoiding human contact; I'm not the Unabomber v2.0. If my wife hadn't been having surgery the week of Tony's birthday GTG (nothing life-threatening, but I still had my hands full), I would've considered making an appearance. In ten+ years, I've killfiled exactly one person (and it wasn't April, Barak or Mike Smith, rather someone many wouldn't have expected from the BBS days), and can't think of anyone that I'd have a problem being around for a while.

Part of it is that I'm naturally like that; I make friendly acquaintances easily, but I'm a wallflower by nature, and it can take effort and a crowbar to drag me out into parties and social events. (If I go somewhere, it's generally because I have a reason to go there, not just to hang out and kibitz.)

Part of it is that I don't dive headlong into every thread like many do; when I have something to say, I pop up and say it, and when that conversation dies off, I disappear until the next time.

And part of it is that I prefer to keep a small amount of distance, just to avoid situations like the one that this thread is about. I keep coming back to the Cellar because it's full of diverse and interesting people with working brains, most of whom refuse to take themselves too seriously (and who have no compunctions about puncturing the egos of those who do). I'd miss it if it went away, as it has at least once. But I don't invest a ton of emotion towards anyone here in particular, because people come and people go and people disappear for a while and shit happens. I've played the "If X is going to be there, then I won't be" social bullshit game with an ex-gf, and it sucks monkey rocks -- and hanging back a little helps ensure that if problems ever do arise between me and someone else here, that emotions won't run deep enough to reach that point where I wouldn't feel comfortable sticking around.

But that's me. Maybe I'm just strung out on cough syrup or something.

Getting close to people always comes with a risk. Not getting close to people in order to avoid the potential pitfalls is defintitely <b>a</b> solution. But I like to think that experiencing the positive is worth the risk of the potiential negative.

vsp, after you said you don't like multiplayer gaming I don't trust you at all and would not invite you over. Even if you needed a favor of some soldering for a car stereo purchase that I recommended.

(Actually, dave was the biggest multiplayer gamer of them all, so maybe this is not a good metric)

Multiplayer gaming? LAN party? Philly area? :)

Um let's just say I have the ideal space for such a thing, a completely networked single house in the burbs with a T1 and no wife and tons of parking and garage load-in and three cases of beer I can't finish myself, and leave it at that because we were talking about never ever getting together again. ?

Hmm I like lan parties. Going to one on the 20th in West Chester...

Been trying to find a COOP game to play to avoid the whining that happens when one side gets raped. (We always make 2 teams).

BTW if you're in the mood for an asskicking I could dig up some directions to the place for you..

Dang, I don't even like single-player gaming that much... should I pack my virtual bags?? ;)

Heh. I'm not ANTI-multiplayer; I'm sure I've bored you and others by pimping netrek before, which was an Internet game I was known to play in dave-esque proportions when I was in college (i.e. end the session, see the clock reading "6:00", and not know for sure whether it's AM or PM).

But I stand by my usual stance. A single-player game is as good as the designers make it; a multi-player game is as good as the players allow it to be. For me to really get into a multiplayer game, it'd have to meet a handful of criteria:

1) The game has to be sufficiently fun that even when I'm losing, I'm doing things that entertain me or are productive in a losing cause. That alone is a pretty big hurdle.

2) Pickup games with reasonably coherent opposition have to be plentiful. It only takes one too many BIFF!!1!11!s (or one cheater) to ruin an online experience.

3) There has to be a "clued" community where once I've spent enough time in pickups to play the game well and know how it _should_ be played, that I can join games with people who are equally serious about it.

4) There has to be a point to the game beyond simple socialization. I never got into noncombat MUDs or chat rooms for precisely that reason.

5) The game has to be one where you don't have to spend eight hours a day, seven days a week at it to either (a) acquire sufficient skill to hang with typical opponents or (b) build up enough rank/stats/levels/money/allies/etc. to do anything meaningful. (I'm looking at YOU, Evercrack.)

6) I will pay for this game no more than once. Monthly fee == sayonara.

Netrek _used to_ meet all of these criteria, but with the passage of time, #2 and #3 are harder and harder to meet. I go back to it once in a blue moon, but that's about it.

I may be getting old, but multiplayer FPS games have evolved far past my capabilities. I read people talking about stunts like shooting down incoming rockets, pinpoint railgun accuracy, super-speed jumping by blowing yourself sky-high with rockets, and I'm thinking "Holy shit, I'm still trying to draw a bead on somebody and they're doing that?" I feel like a beer-league softball player preparing to take on the Yankees, and I can't spend the time necessary to build up that skill level.

(On the flip side, I'll play single-player FPS'es. I grabbed Serious Sam recently and loved it.)

Ultima Online, Evercrack, Dark Age of Camelot et al. are all in the monthly-fee, sign-up-and-socialize, can't-advance-unless-you-spend-hours-waiting-for-monster-respawns-with-a-heavily-armed-guild-backing-you-up category. Next!

I've heard too many nightmares about player-killing and cheating and hacking in the Diablo family. Next! (Caveat: I like PSX Diablo, which does have co-op, and I actually found its interface to be more intuitive than the PC version.)

There is an online adapter for my PS2, but I haven't found a game that uses it yet that I'd be interested in.

Although I _am_ toying with the notion of <a href="http://cube.ign.com/articles/440/440372p1.html">this</a> little gem...

You know...my most played online game of all time is Subspace (now known as Continium).

Look it up on Google. It's the most fun you can have in an MP game online even if you only have 5 free minutes.

(Play on either Trench Wars or Extreme Games servers).

Oh and its' 100% free. (abandonware)

I've been in it since the Beta when that was I forget..still HS though...

Well that's why I always advocated Ghost Recon, because there is no stupid elite trick stuff; it's all about using your brain.

Let's see, one guy is down the alley and one guy is on top of the embassy roof. If I stand up here, the guy on the roof will see me, and if I don't see him first, I die quick. But if I provide cover fire maybe my teammate can climb the stairs and get him from the other direction. But I better lay a sensor in case the guy in the alley decides to take a run for it...

Ghost Recon is a tough as hell game to just sit down and play.

Thing is we tend to NOT know what game we'll play till we get together...so it has to be fairly basic.

I think we tried Rogue Spear and while I was godlike at that game, most people were not. Most of the time our "coop" games turned into everyone watching me finish off the AI...

I don't get it. I never thought PacMan was that cool when it was in the arcades ... is it that much better to play the ghosts?

When you're playing as the ghosts AGAINST someone playing Pac-Man, that's something new and untried, particularly if you can drag a third or a fourth into it.

It's the perfect party game -- EVERYBODY knows Pac-Man, so they can learn what's different about this version in fifteen seconds. You trade off the GBA (control of Pac-Man) whenever he gets caught, so everyone gets to play different roles. Extra mazes. If you could keep Mario from providing color commentary, it'd be perfect.

Miyamoto designed it. What was the last bad game he did?

Hey, I always liked Frogger... maybe they could make a new version where you can be the alligator, or maybe one of the trucks!!!

Shhhhh... Hasbro and Konami have already been busy raping the Frogger brand name for all it's worth. (Actually, Hasbro's second attempt (Frogger 2: Swampy's Revenge) wasn't all that bad, but the first one was drizzling shit, and Frogger: The Great Quest? An anthropomorphic walking-on-two-feet Frogger trying to save a princess? Death to all involved.)