I dont know. Your heart, guts, mind are physically shifting. I know that you are hurting, and I'm with you bro.

UT,

Just to let you know, I'm here, I'm listening, and will do whatever I can for yah. (Offer void where prohibited by law and good taste).

That would be all of them. Particularly that Sycamore dude.

(except slang, of course, who is a paragon of masculine virtue (he occasionally puts the seat down, even) ... NO I AM NOT DRUNK!!!)

She do UT, she do.
Don't start with that toilet seat shit.:mad:

The problem with helping the needy, is that in order to effect a complete recovery they need to put everything behind them. That includes the one that helped them accomplish it. Always.

Hey UT, did I hear Syc is going to buy you a hooker? That's mighty nice of him considering they're expensive in AC.:D Here's one from Vegas.

You've hit the biggest part of it right on the head, UT. It hurts, because you *have* ceased to think of your partner as an individual, and started to think of her as a part of *you*. It would be equally painful to cut off a couple of toes. Oh, sure, you know you'll survive it and all, but it damn it, it hurts!

The other part of it is the rejection. It is simply hideous knowing that somehow, some way, against all reason, in direct opposition to everything you have tried to do...that someone would finally decide they were better off without you than with you. I'm still not over the shock of that from my first marriage, particularly when I see what I got traded in for. Sheesh.

However, none of this is an absolute, man. Therefore, it does not mean you have failed, or even done anything wrong. And, by the way, it *does* get better. It most definitely *does* get better...and this is coming from someone who gave some pretty serious consideration to checking out when he was going through it.

If you want some frank talk about my past divorce experience, you know how to PM me, but I won't drag it all across the board. It is a bit too sordid, but I promise some minor enlightenment if you do ask. :)

Good idea, that would spoil the book. Can hardly wait.:D

      You know, this is an interesting point because, I think, a lot of us have been there.
      We work so hard to make someone's life better, only to be left and then see them drop significantly. My theory is that I was artificially bolstering the level that person felt most comfortable at. Making them a better person than they actually wished to be. This sounds strange I know, but remember not everyone wishes to better themselves.
      Anyway, in my case I hold myself partially responsible. Clearly, I was transposing my own values on to someone else. Always a mistake. I say 'partially' because anytime I've done this I've been told the other person had the same values. So I made an honest mistake due to being to trusting. Still, it was my mistake to make. The results were foreseeable, my "help" is needed for a while, but eventually chafes. Then the breakup ensues.
      I'm not suggesting that this is what happened with UT, 'cause frankly I don't know enough about the specifics to have an opinion. Just relating what's happened to me, and from the sound of it, a lot of us.

I wasn't gonna start with it ... honest. I truly don't give a damn whether it's up or it's down, or even if the roll is replaced when empty. I take responsibility for myself in such matters. (That, my ability to shoot, and love for violent videogames apparently makes me fairly prized as a companion and lifemate.)

This is what happend to me. I tried to take what I thought was a very simular human being with simular past relationship issues and build a very healthy relationship. BOY - was it not! I had someone that I was engaged to cheat on me and then leave me a note in my mailbox saying that he didn't want to get married. The other guy had a simular experience with his ex-fiance. Therefore - since both of us were very adamant about cheating and how it sucks to be on the other end of it - I knew I could trust this person. Until I found condoms & his socks and underware (that I bought him for christmas) in my roomate's bedroom after I had been out of town for a funeral.

So Toad - what that has to do with your situation - I have no idea. But the above hurt. It took months to get over it. Also - because I am a firm believer in Karma - I did nothing in retaliation. I didn't even have the big confruntation and screaming yelling match. I just moved. So - even to this day years later - I still get a pain just thinking about it. But - I know that I personally gave all I could to that relationship. I know how I acted and I can be proud of that. While my situation is different - you sound the same. Take pride in the fact that you cared so much and gave so much. Take pride in yourself. Yeah - it sucks - not gonna deny that. But little by little it does get easier. (Also - don't drink alone - unless watching Jerry Springer cause that makes your life look so much better.)

Huggles and snuggles to ya.

Well...

Wow, I was just reading this article and then stumbled upon this thread. UT, I am so sorry to hear your news. All I can offer is that I went through a divorce (after 15 years and 3 kids) that no one really wanted, but was inevitable due to a serious, ongoing medical/mental problem. It is now three years since we separated, and the divorce became final a few months ago. I seriously reconsidered several times, but this really seemes to have been the best outcome we could hope for (no headlines about "Wife, Kids Found Dead in Suburban Home" which was a distinct possibility).

When he finally moved out, our friends were shocked and disturbed, because the problems in the marriage were of such a private nature, and we were involved in so many facets of our community and held in high esteem as a 'happy couple.' It has given me a whole new perspective on the private lives of others -- as I drive through neighborhoods of manicured lawns and happy children, I am acutely aware that there's a story behind every door.

Similar to the outpouring of support you have received here, ranging from tangible assistance to simply 'being there,' I was heartened by the amazing response of my friends and neighbors -- to both of us. It really helped to know that so many people cared, and to such depth.

In the long run, after the pain, confusion, doubt, disarray, changes, etc., it has come out on the positive side; the kids are doing well, my ex is getting the treatment he needs, and I eventually met HB!

If we can help in any way, I sure hope you'll let us know. Can't offer much help with the employment, but we've got enough of all the rest to share (but aren't you staying in the house?) -- and, of course, if you meander down to Baltimore, we'd love to be your hosts.

My wife doesn't care about the tp being on the roll either...she must not, 'cause she never replaces it! :D

Wolf, it sounds like you are most guy's dream woman, but there are other qualifying characteristics:

1) Do you like televised sports, no matter what the subject?
2) How many socks and underwear on the floor is too many?
3) Your man says he needs a large screen TV. Do you (a) ask how much it costs, or (b) offer to drive to Best Buy?
4) Finances become tight. Do you (a) cut down on the ammo budget, or (b) rush out and bring home reloading equipment and coo sexily that it seems like a great couples' activity to you?

1) Do you like televised sports, no matter what the subject?

no matter what the subject, no...and golf is not a sport.

2) How many socks and underwear on the floor is too many?

ask me about the ones he left hanging on the bathroom doorknob the day i had the "ladies' circle" over to my house.


3) Your man says he needs a large screen TV. Do you (a) ask how much it costs, or (b) offer to drive to Best Buy?

I say -- your eyes must be going. get to the doctor, or..sit closer.

4) Finances become tight. Do you (a) cut down on the ammo budget, or (b) rush out and bring home reloading equipment and coo sexily that it seems like a great couples' activity to you?

this must be a wolf-only question.... :shotgun:

[color=indigo]
Since dar replied, I'll throw mines in too.

1) Do you like televised sports, no matter what the subject?

If we assume golf is not a sport, YES!

2) How many socks and underwear on the floor is too many?

We have a FLOOR?

3) Your man says he needs a large screen TV. Do you (a) ask how much it costs, or (b) offer to drive to Best Buy?

(b) Offer to drive and try to convince him to buy surround sound/home theatre components on the way.

4) Finances become tight. Do you (a) cut down on the ammo budget, or (b) rush out and bring home reloading equipment and coo sexily that it seems like a great couples' activity to you?


B!!

C'mon, you're yanking my chain.:rolleyes: I refuse to believe there is anyone, regardless of race, color, creed, religion or sexual preference, that is not annoyed by finding the tp roll empty. Especially when they just barely made it in time.:p
As a matter of fact, I think that's why Lucifer was cast out of heaven.:D

Yes, Wolf is a dream woman in many ways and I greatly appreciate her attitudes and flexibility.

Wolf, it sounds like you are most guy's dream woman, but there are other qualifying characteristics:

1) Do you like televised sports, no matter what the subject?

Yes. I even have favorite teams and can (semi) intelligently discuss the finer points of several types of sporting contests. I will admit that I am not able to give accurate play by plays of minor events in years-past games, but I believe this is an illustration of the innate difference in the wiring of the male vs. female brains.

2) How many socks and underwear on the floor is too many?

If the bedroom becomes too full I will sleep on the couch in the office.

3) Your man says he needs a large screen TV. Do you
(a) ask how much it costs, or
(b) offer to drive to Best Buy?

Offer to drive to the Tweeter home entertainment store because I understand that the Bang and Olufson surround sound stereo package goes MUCH better with the Sony Plasma HDTV wallscreen.

Oh, and I make sure we get the one that will also interface with the computer system. AND that there are enough RCA and optical jacks available to handle all the other components and game systems.

4) Finances become tight. Do you
(a) cut down on the ammo budget, or
(b) rush out and bring home reloading equipment and coo sexily that it seems like a great couples' activity to you?

The ammo budget is not something eligible for cutting. We can do without broccoli and salads for a bit.

Moreso (b), but will be perfectly happy messing about with the equipment myself. Just means I do a little less cross stitching and crocheting during the winter months.

Not all activities need to be group activities, after all.

:blush:

Thank you sweetheart! :) (warm happy glow)

<beavis>hehheh... he said flexibility.... hehheh... </beavis>

So in other words, the ideal woman is... a man.

Not sure about this

I'm answering to - because according to a friend of mine - he is now using me as the perfect girl for the armed forces because 1) I love video games 2) I have a subscription to playboy 3) I go to strip clubs, with my mom.... (adopted) 4) I don't give a damn about the toilet seat 5) I can keep up with Navy drinking.

1) Do you like televised sports, no matter what the subject?
I'm the only one in the house that does. BF likes playing - not watching. I swear at the TV. In this - I get it from my mom who is an enormous sports fan.

2) How many socks and underwear on the floor is too many?
If I have none left to wear. (Unfortunately with this - turning inside out and using other side is not an option - I will just go commando)

3) Your man says he needs a large screen TV. Do you (a) ask how much it costs, or (b) offer to drive to Best Buy?
- B - kinda - I would do all the comparison shopping - find the best deal and borrow my buddys truck to go get it.

4) Finances become tight. Do you (a) cut down on the ammo budget, or (b) rush out and bring home reloading equipment and coo sexily that it seems like a great couples' activity to you?
Being as we just last weekend got a 4 point - either and both. LOL

OK, so could one or more of the ladies explain this whole toilet seat thing? I mean, not to be too offensive (like I could do that in this crowd anyway), if I woke up in the middle of the night and peed on the lid because somebody had left it down and I didn't bother to check before I started, I'd be laughed out of the house if I complained about it. So why are some women so insistent on this particular topic to the point that it's legendary for starting horrible arguments?

Personally, I just don't like getting an ass full of cold water in the middle of the night when I'm half asleep trying not to wake my other half by not turning the light on.

Besides, ya'll tend to miss, and I REALLY don't wanna be sitting in THAT.

Dagney

If you don't want an ass full of cold water put the seat down first. you don't need a god damn light to do that.
You don't want piss on the seat? Fair enough. Very reasonable. But then you want us to put the seat back down so it's ready for you? Why in hell don't you put the seat up so it's ready for us?
Nooo, you want it your way all the time. You want us to put it up AND down while you do nothing. Bullshit.
Lets compromise. EVERYBODY put the seat AND the lid down after use. Everytime..no exceptions....that's fair to everyone and you always know what you're going to find.:angry:

Clearly the only answer is to leave the seat down, and we will pee in the sink.

problem fucking solved

If you don't want an ass full of cold water put the seat down first. you don't need a god damn light to do that.
You don't want piss on the seat? Fair enough. Very reasonable. But then you want us to put the seat back down so it's ready for you? Why in hell don't you put the seat up so it's ready for us?
Nooo, you want it your way all the time. You want us to put it up AND down while you do nothing. Bullshit.
Lets compromise. EVERYBODY put the seat AND the lid down after use. Everytime..no exceptions....that's fair to everyone and you always know what you're going to find.

my wife and i have had this same argument . Afriend who had 3(wife and 2 daughters ) girls and 2 guys ( him and his son ) came up with the BEST answer . Seat and top down for safety reasons , small kids can drownd in the toylet bowl :cool:

Problem fucking is solved by peeing in the sink? Shit, and all this time, I've been paying out the ass for Viagra?!

flexibility = not bitching in general but specifically about my trashy apt , loaded guns and live ammo laying around.

Okay, golf is not a sport. Therefore, it must be an art, because anything that damn difficult is either one or the other.

Hey, Dar...what about the ones he left - did you say 'stuck to' or 'hanging on'? - the door?



Bzzzzzzz!!!! I'm sorry, but that answer is not correct! Clearly, you must already own a TV of at least 48" diameter if you don't think you need a larger one.

Oh, hell no...in fact, although I only initially addressed it to Wolf, I've really enjoyed everyone's responses. The Cellar obviously attracts a lot of prime females!

Beautiful post, Bruce. That's EXACTLY how I feel, and I've said the same many times. It simply amazes me that millions of women feel <i>so strongly</i> about an argument that makes <i>absolutely no fucking sense</i>.

Although poor Dagney was just answering your question. :)

Okay, so can a woman make up a list of qualifying characteristics for the "dream man"?

OHHH THIS SHOULD BE GOOD !!!:D :D

I agree, it's the best solution. I mean, who could complain about that? Also, our toilet is right next to the sink, so I also make sure the lid's down while I'm futzing with my contacts. I can just imagine dropping one down the toilet.

Oh and thanks Bruce. Great answer.

The answer is:
Undertoad! :D

NEAR PHILLY
 

toad,

What do you do for a living when you ARE employed? I'm in Chadds Ford.

I'm real new here and don't have the background on the situation with the future exwife. Why is she giving up? ( if its not too personal to discuss) do you guys fight, or avoid each other.....the latter is worse in my mind.

kids?

Other music to avoid at a time like this: The Cure, The Smiths.

You're right to avoid the weed at this point, although normally it has good uses, it does not help at all with depression. Try hard physical labor. aka, nailing all of your wife's shoes up on the roof, or sawing the legs off of her favorite furniture. Be petty, be very petty. short sheet her bed........did you ever see "the war of the roses"?

Well, now that I've finished putting the shards of my ass back together.....

I never realized the whole 'seat' debate was such a touchy subject! Sorry to light your fire Bruce....

I won't even begin to ask about the whole toilet paper debate (does the flap go on the INSIDE of the roll or the OUTSIDE?)

Oh, and by the way...I do do something, I usually clean the bathroom.....and I tend want to keep it clean. Just one of my 'thangs'.

Dagney

I don't think he really meant that energetic response to be directed towards you specicifically. No doubt many other women have pushed him over the edge. :)

I'm a tech guy and an Internet guy, jack of all trades sort. I have a small business doing web development and programming. It's all out of my home. It used to be bigger but collapsed in the bubble burst. (Many of the ashes of the business are still visible at catalystinternet.com. I plan to redo that site though, to reflect an individual and not a team.) I make enough money to make half a living at it, and I've kinda been in "maintenance mode", but now must gear up.

(Either that or get a "real job", or contracting work through an agency... possibly...)

!No kids!

The truth of it is that we have been in a mostly loveless marriage our whole time together, and have been working hard make it work all along, and she has come to the thinking that it won't ever work.

For a long time she felt that she needed the security of me and the life that we built together. Then she went to therapy, and went on medications, and started to solve her personality problems of Generalized Anxiety Disorder and whatnot. In the last two months, it seems, she has become a whole new person, suddenly spontaneous and carefree. I think she figured out that she was leaving on Labor Day, and resolved made the changes in herself that she needed to make.

Three weeks ago she went on a dude ranch vacation by herself and met some other independent people who have made lives without men around (well they're lesbians). This gave her some confidence. And also, she met another guy, who took an immediate liking to her. In this she was able to see how other people make it on their own, and to prove her own desireability to herself by, you know, sleeping with the guy and becoming instantly and immediately infatuated with him in a way she never did with me. They still talk every night on the phone. She doesn't know if it'll last but she's having fun. OK.

She has committed to an apartment on 11/1 and will be moving out that day, taking with her the least number of items she needs to build a new life from scratch.

Number of apartments she looked at before deciding: 1. I don't recognize this person, who used to be the most cautious individual ever built. Every decision used to be met with long lists of pros and cons and agonizing. Suddenly even the big decisions are immediate and carefree.

dude ranch
 

ouch! my wife wanted to go to one of those with the women from her "moms with minds"loop ( also mostly lesbians) glad it never happened......another guy .......grrrrr

11 YEARS

well....i'd say get out there and start flirting.....that's all great that you helped her find her true self and gave her the confidence she was missing, but for her to turn around and stick it up your butt like that at the first sign of a clear sky sucks canal water. she talks to this guy on your phone with you in the house......fuck! that's just wrong...I'm all pissed off over it. that's disrespect at its utmost, and if you stand for that, you deserve it. Toughen up. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. You are the man. Get free! Do not allow her infidelity in your house. damn! tell her she can call all the men she wants from HER phone when sh's out! Meanwhile, paybacks!! bring a couple ho's home and rub her nose in it......

remember that he who recovers first recovers best.


all that said......if im off base and there is more going on, i apologize

And I was being nice because I like you.:D
It sets me off because it's a recognizable tip of an unseen but persistant undercurrent. What I perceive as an unfair attitude of mens inherent behavior being bad while womens inherent behavior being good without regard fair and equitable.
It's the old "If a man speaks and a woman doesn't hear him, is he still wrong?" kind of thing. Sorry if I startled you, Dagney. :)

It's okay Bruce, I have fairly thick skin....

(although I must say, my first response was..."What the fuck crawled up HIS ass"....)

But I still love you :) (Even if we can't agree on the position of the toilet seat!)

Dagney

on second thought
 

toad,

as i think more about this, you should be happy. a loveless relationship from the beginning.....now you'll be free to pursue a loving relationship with a more adjusted and appropriate mate. Keep her as afriend, which she must be for you to tolerate the above treatment, and don't dwell on the loss of a ROOMATE....just get a better one.

and btw, bruce, you're right about the toilet seat conspiracy.....and the only viable solution IS to keep it closed when not in use. beyond that, you could install a urinal.

PERFECT MAN
 

I got this, cougar

the perfect man:

2 ft tall, can breath through his ears and has a ten inch tongue

PERFECT MAN
 

sorry to offend, onyx, it was an old joke.....and, i am a man....so MY perfect man is one that buys the beer, loves the Cowboys, and doesn't oogle my wife.

oh, and what else is there besides constant sex?

UT, after a long friendship/partnership there has to be some sense of loss and maybe a little envy of half the team striking off in a new endeavor. Especially if they show extreme excitement and enthusiasm, you're bound to have those "What am I, chopped liver?" feelings.
But don't dwell on the past, learn and profit from it. Then when in a year or two you're an internet mogul with a trophy wife, you can brag to the rest of us losers. :D

Re: PERFECT MAN
 

The years between my first wife's departure and meeting my current spouse were a strange and wonderful mixture of loneliness, cockiness, ups and downs, wild and crazy sex with lots of new and different women, really long dry spells wherein I was certain that no one would ever have anything to do with me again...in short, things were a pendulum, swinging crazily from one side to the other, with all things in between. But at least the pendulum kept swinging, you know?

After you've been in a monogamous relationship for a long, long time, and you get out there on the streets again, it is both stimulating and terrifying. Even when you manage to hook up with someone, you then start worrying about "what if they're crazy" (some will be), "what if she becomes obsessed with me and I don't really like her that much" (it might happen), "what if I like her a lot but I'm just a fun toy and a pal for her" (happened to me), "what if, after we get funky, she goes home and I realize that I'm just as alone as I was when we hooked up"...

When things go good, there's no better feeling in the world. You feel great about yourself, you feel renewed, powerful, desireable. When things don't go quite as well, you feel like an ogre, stupid, clumsy, an outcast.

No matter whether it goes well or not, every day you have to trust in yourself, you have to be strong, you have to have at least a modicum of self-discipline. Otherwise, all is lost.

Slang's pretty much flexible in the same way ... another of the reasons we get along.

Re: PERFECT MAN
 

Zat a real problem? :D

Well I googled Lumberjim and got this image.
I also googled Lumberjim's wife and got ziltch so I googled wife and got 38,700,000 hits but I don't know which one is his.:p

Hey, Dar...what about the ones he left - did you say 'stuck to' or 'hanging on'? - the door?
------------------

hanging on.

i cleaned. and cleaned. and did the whole martha-freaking-stewart thing. stuffed mushrooms, made little phylo-dough cups for some fancy crap...alll kinds of things. i had a group of friends...some editors from a local paper, etc...over. it was stylish. it was a hit.

at the end, with said guests out the door, dar feeling pretty proud, i went to divest myself of diet coke....

closed the door, sat...

and looked up to see bright red underwear hanging from the doorknob.

thought back...and realized every guest had emptied bladders before leaving the house.

his reason? after the shower, didn't want to leave them on the floor.

now, how am i supposed to answer THAT??!?!

My God Dar, you let him use the bathroom after you cleaned?:eek:

Lumberjim, the "loss of a roommate" line is one of the best yet. You put it exactly how I need to think about it.

I'm built differently, I think, being an only child raised by a single parent mom. When she rejected me, the idea that there might have been someone else in the recipe really didn't matter. It would have been as much a problem for me if she had come back saying she tried to get laid and failed.

In fact I expect she's having phone sex with the dude in the very same bed we've slept in for ages. The hurtful thing is that we were never that intense. Never had phone sex. Although I was/would have been that intense for her, she never really was for me.

So, I think, for whatever reason, she wanted to believe that I was "the one", but I wasn't. And so she went the same way as, perhaps, Juju's friend's husband, the one who's "not gay". Like that guy, or at least who we think he might be -- she tried to believe she loved me, but never really did. Tried to convince herself she was sexually attracted to me, but never really was. Tried to make me something different, until I pushed back hard. Tried to convince herself that her upbringing was the problem and, thus, that SHE was the problem -- when really, the problem was US all along.

Unfortunate. But it does happen, all the time from what I've seen. Didn't think it would happen to me. Didn't see it happening...

But here's the good part: the next woman I hook up with is going to downright adore me, worship me, respect me, praise me and love me, because you people tell me I deserve it, and I believe you, and I'm never ever ever going to make this mistake again.

Look forward to that story when I write in in 2009.

Nice hat Jim! :)

What? Dumped some stock based on insider info?

Dude, don't just take our word for it. Everyone deserves to be treated special by their s.o., so long as you do right by them.

Well they all do that, but if they love you they don't get pissy if it doesn't succeed. Then some succeed and don't like what they've created so screw it, be you.:)