for purposes of establishing a site valuation...

well yes, otherwise it is not a fair valuation - right? determined by the market. otherwise someone could have...

which wouldn't be fair right? infact it would be fraudulent!

Well that sounds extremely unfair. I like my house, and I want to live in it. I don't want to sell it at any price. But now I have to pay higher taxes than my mobile neighbor, who sets a low price and simply moves after delaying things for a few months with his uncle who's a real estate lawyer. Now I have to set a higher price than the market in order to stay here, and pay double taxes, even though I'm more valuable to the neighborhood as a long-time landowner.

You are slightly mistaken. The idea of 'common ownership', along with unions, is a reaction to the oppression of private ownership.

It's actually like this:

If I privately own a tract of land, I can do whatever I want within that tract of land. If Joe and I share the tract of land, he can limit my freedoms within that tract of land, because he owns it too. If Joe owns that tract of land entirely, then my freedoms on that tract of land are dependent upon Joe's whim.

Private ownership only represents freedom for the person that owns the land. The person that owns the land can oppress the people that live and work on the land (serfs, slaves, employees, what have you). This leads to bitterness, picketing, unions, revolts, and Communism.

The poeple that work on the land are going to think that their freedoms will be more respected if they have some ownership of the land.

      First off, thanks Adan, now I can read your viewpoint and judge for myself. As opposed to someone else's take on it. I appreciate it. I did find it interesting that you chose to be a jackass in presenting it. Especially since I was asking for your side of the story. Oh well.
      So anyway, I'm reading from the link and start getting nervous as soon as I'm being told about morality. Then I get this. So I follow the link to learn about Locke's proviso. and I get this.       Now we're at an impasse. You see, I'm not a christian, I don't give a rat's ass about God, what he did, or his will.
      I also find it interesting you invoke god and Ayn Rand together given her views on religion. Did anyone actually read any of her stuff other than the portion that sounded supportive of your veiwpoint?
      Anyway, I didn't weep, but I did roll my eyes a bit.

      Now on to the current thread.       Riiiiight, 'cause we know people are always fair... Two things, UT's example is valid legally, though I admit it isn't fair and even if it was legally fraud the people with the cash and power won't get prosecuted.
      So, we have a second impasse. Even if I believed in the ideals, it still doesn't wash with reality. I'm more interested in what is real than what is fair in some imagined Utopia. So, I'll stay here, in the real world. Have fun with your moral superiority.

Don't understand this thing with 'the air is free'. Of course the air is free. You can breathe all of mine you want, as long as you do it as an invited guest or from the other side of my property line. You are also welcome to fly over my house any time you'd like, just watch out for the birds and don't disturb the goats. I don't care a bit about the theory that we don't own the land but are only cutodians of it. Screw that theory. I may be just a 'long term renter' but until the day they carry me off this plot feet first, it's mine, and I'm sick of the being subjected to the whims of a bunch of section 8 renters who haven't a clue what they're voting for.

Miss a day on this board and you spend an hour catching up.

Maggie M...

Private ownership only represents freedom for the person that owns the land. The person that owns the land can oppress the people that live and work on the land (serfs, slaves, employees, what have you).

Does this mean my goats are oppressed?????

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Man are you barking up the wrong tree with that comment. Also you're straw man argument with yourself was laughable. Don't ever put words in my mouth, especially ignorant ones such as yours.

I'm doing just fine putting you into your place far beneath me. For the record I’ve never “choosen” anything.

I'm starting to feel right proud of my role as 'oppresive landowner'. Let's see, my husband and I worked and saved for three years to come up with a down payment for our house in California. Then he retired from the navy, and thanks to an overinflated real estate market, we made what most liberals, lazy people, and other folks of no background or breeding would consider an obscene profit. Never mind that we had been breaking our backs for the last five years to make double payments to get the mortgage paid down. Anyway, we moved back to Mississippi and with the profits from the sale of our home, was able to pay cash for the land we now own. It's ours, free and clear, but, if we ever fail to make a tax payment, it suddenly becomes the property of the government. Where's the justice in that? Not that I'm complaining about paying taxes, although there is a whole list of things I'd rather do than pay taxes (root canal, ingrown toenail, visit from the in-laws) but I conceed that ALL people should pay SOME taxes, and the less the better.

About a month after we bought this place we got a letter from the tax accessor wanting to know what we were planning on doing with the property. Being one of those people who firmly believe it's none of the governments damned business what I do on my own land, I wrote back we were going to open a nudist colony. Haven't heard from them since, but I have the feeling that some poor beurocrat spent the morning looking up millage fees on nudists colonies.

Maggie M...

PS: ignore the spelling, I am dyslesic as hell and have always had
a problem with spelling.

This is sad, a witch who can't spell.

Increasing taxes on rents CHANGES the market; the new market rate will be higher than the old market rate.

Changing property taxes from land+improvements to land is a great way of screwing over the guy with a less-improved lot. If you're looking for a way to take less from the rich and more from the (relatively) poor, that's a great way to do it.

More than likely, you'd have to fail to pay for several years for the Man :eek: to take the property.

Even so, I totally agree with you. No one ever really owns anything in America, they lease it.

This is also true with an increasing number of non-real assets. Many states have an excise tax on cars (though I wouldnt live in any of them...again).

fine I could give a rat's ass either I am agnostic. But it doesn't change the fact that no one made it - right?

impasse...

Is that really all the commentary you can muster here?

Simple question: Are the original classical liberals geo-libertarians or neo-libertarians?

yes or no?

The question Ms. Magpie is...

Turning the tables on that dope Radar...would we not be better off assigning individual, inalienable equal access rights to air as I have suggested?

Or to continue supporting Radar's communistic scheme of the "air is free" so dump away and we'll try and stop you by bringing a lawsuit against you?

And the survey says Ms. Magpie? (I can't wait for this...)

Thank goodness YOUR place will remain in LA-LA land since you will not be moving to the FSP in NH where I am located. The reason why is we are already making plans to have an intelligence (call it a "dope") litmus test at the border and guess who is not going to make it?

are you still sticking to the fallacy, without offering any proof to the contrary, that the original classical liberals were neo-libertarians not geo-libertarians?

one last chance to redeem your soiled pants & honor sir...

New Hampshire is a shithole and a perfect place for a retard such as yourself. I can see you having an IQ test at the border to keep people of superior intellect out so we don't rule you.

Your a communist, a liar, and a thief. May you and your ilk rot in hell.

The FSP was the last chance for freedom in America without bloodshed and dishonest enemies of freedom such as yourself have fucked it up for everyone. People will now die in a bloody revolution thanks to you. I hope you're happy.

well Ms. Magpie you just paid for all of the uncollected economic scarcity rent that the former owner ripped off from the community before you...how do you feel now?

See you could have bought the property three years before that if a geo-libertarian policy were in place...

no - you got snookered my dear...

beautiful you ripped off your neighbors in Calif. thanks to Prop 13 and bought a plantation in Mississippi to continue the oppression that has a deep tradition in the south.

Kind of like the movie "Roots" huh?

Because the monopoly of government granted privilege called land title allows it to continue so it must be right. It does not matter a lick that we have to LIVE and WORK SOMEWHERE, right?

Since I am assuming you are not charging your goats rent for the privilege of roaming around your nudist plantation - no. I could care less what you do with your goats even if it was legal in LA-LA land and not in the state of Mississippi...you do own them don't you?

Could you tell me which parts are bad, b/c the parts of NH I've been in are rather nice. That way, when I go back up there next spring, I'll know where not to go.

Thanks man!

For the regulars, this is hilarious on its face: Radar found a reason -- ANY reason, really -- to call the Free State Project bogus and a potential failure, for a minor philosophical point that won't really apply to the FSP until, probably, decades into its existence.

(We understand that "any minor point" can be turned into an immensely large point by Radar, through the application of his odd razor: assuming every other matter solved, THIS matter would be the stumbling block ergo THIS matter is huge.)

A large number of Libby philosophical purists are not really purists at all, but compulsive contrarians. Another segment are church ladies ready to show how everyone else has gone astray. Liberty is their religion and they spend their time in evangelist mode.

The Free State Project has picked New Hampshire to move its 20,000 libbies to. My family welcomes you, please enjoy some maple candy and learn to split firewood. Anyone looking for some awesomely beautiful acreage in Franconia, with the perfectly pure water of the Gale River running right through it, should speak with me directly. You can have better than Poland Spring water running right through your taps. 200 people in Franconia would run the entire goddamn town since the population is about 500 anyway.

Every part when compared with Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, and Alaska.

I bet you don't even provide clothes for the poor proletarian dairy producing laborers on your so-called 'nudist colony', do you, you capitalist you. :D

Fine set the price of your site (not your building) high enough that no one will buy it...set it too low and bye-bye!

The truth comes out now - even his "pals" are turning on him.

The minor philosophical point is not so minor in my mind. Property taxes in NH are a singular rate 25 per 1000 of valuation on land and on buildings in my town. Taxing buildings (the fruits of labor) discourages people from building but shifting taxes off buildings and onto land values will incent people to optimize the use of land as it relates to the center city:

1. lower tenant rents by the building boom of apartments
2. make land and housing more affordable by ending speculation
3. curb sprawl without zoning by focusing development downtown where it belongs
4. increase blue collar jobs
5. create more walkable & livable cities while encouraging less dependence on the car
6. protect open space as the edge of the cities contract

The original premise for me being dragged here by "dopey" from the FSP is because I am arguing that the original classical liberals - the French Physiocrats - were in fact Geo-libertarians...treating labor-based property differently than title-based property from our natural world...which no human physically created.

Today's so called "libertarians" are really Neo-libertarians in sheeps clothing and because of this misunderstanding their views actually conflict with their principles and makes them totally unable to deal with issues of social justice and environmental problems.

Here are links to others who layout the proof better than I can:

Neo or "Royal" Libertarian

Todd Altman's site

Read them for yourself and decide...

I am off to start a Geo-libertarian Caucus within the Free State Project here in NH and continue my efforts to expose the Neo-libertarians for what they are - FRAUDS. Anyone who wants to join I welcome if you come with an open mind towards learning the truth!

This thread is becoming more and more like a Seinfeld episode.

Which one is the People's Front of Judea again?

I am so glad that I don't live in your country.

Why not just do it the sane way, where you assess the value of someone's home by assigning an employee to assess it's worth, and measuring the price of homes for sale around him?

Do you want to be forced out of your home because you didn't want to pay too much in taxes? Why don't you want someone to be able to say "sorry, not for sale" without robbing them blind in taxes?

      The basis of Locke's argument is that God made it. Now you say you're agnostic. Therefore it's illegitimate for you to use this argument.
      So please, send me a link to what you believe. I asked for it already, and in spite of your continuos rudeness, I've asked again politely.
      Um, actually I don't care. I'm not in any way connected to any form of libertarianism. Not in the slightest. Nor is just about anyone else around here. I'd have to study a bunch of stuff that I'm not interested in to actually be able to form an answer to that question. Neither you nor Radar have given me any reason to spend the time. Though he didn't ask the question either.
      You see, the only current libertarians I've talked to, of any sort, are you and Radar. The way you approach things is enough to suggest you are worse than him.
      If you back tracked on this site a bit you'd find that Radar has threatened me physically. We aren't pals. So you see, I've no reason to read up on all the back history I'd need to answer your question.
      One more time though, as far as the land discussion, what are your beliefs? The ones you actually hold?
      Come to think of it, I'd also like to know why you linked me to a site that was supposed to give me your side, then when I take issue with a major point you say you don't believe that anyway. For that matter, why be rude to an impartial observer? I'm still willing to listen to you or Radar, if you make an honest arguement.
      At least with Radar even if I think he's nuts I don't doubt he believes what he is saying.
      You have not shown the same.

Adan, Gee, I try real hard not to say anything personal about the people who post, but just how far up your ass is your head anyway?

Ripping of my neigbor, well he did it willingly. I did not force him to sign a mortage for 240k, he did it own his own. BTW that was about 30K less than what anyone else would have asked, but we wanted desparatly to leave the socialist state of califuckyou.

Adan, get a life, get a job, get a clue, get laid, get something, as obviously you have been educated well beyond your intelligence and spend way too much time on the internet.

Poll, folks, who'd you rather have over for dinner, Adan, or one of my goats??

Torrere, as a matter of fact, my goats have some very nice 'goat coats' for inclement weather. They're made of nylon lined with polar fleece, designed to keep the little kiddes warm. I run them up on my sewing machine.

My poor 'working' goats have such a hard life, they get fed grain twice a day, have all the hay they want, all the green stuff they can eat, and 20 acres of pasture land to play in. They've got a nice snug 'goat shed' and get better health care than most people. In return all I expect is for them to keep the pasture free of weeds and brush, a few gallons of milk per day, and an increase in herd size. If anyone is worried about them ending up in the freezer, it isn't going to happen, they're more like pets than farm animals.

Guess that makes me the same as the big bad goverment, oppressing the poor goats like that, expecting them to work in exchange for all those goodies. Oh my god, I think I may be a
CONSERVATIVE!!!!

- you provide warm coats to protect them from bad weather
- you supply them with good food
- comfortable working conditions
- comfortable housing
- 20 acre range
- free medical and health care

It sounds like you might have a liberal streak to ya, missy! Next thing you know, you'll be giving your goats Twizzlers!

BUT! What would happen if you were not such a good mistress? What if you were the Cruella deVille sort?

Would your goats be fleeced before the winter came with it's cold storms?
Would your goats live in stalls little larger than a cubicle?
Would your goats have to live on a thin gruel of watery wheat paste?
Would you take the hatchet to them if they didn't produce enough milk?

You see, it all depends upon you. Since you are a good mistress, the goats live well. Were you not a good mistress, the goats might suffer in ways you would shiver to think about.

Socialism came about to curtail the abuses of the Cruella deVilles of the world. The people that Upton Sinclair was trying to expose. The goats may have lucked out this time, but do they have a choice whether they will work for you or for another? What about those poor goats out there that are being oppressed?