Goethean, you musy be a palestinian. All you do is whine and attack.
If you weren't, you would start your own thread and post your own pictures.

Rational
 

Saw this in the Onion once that I keep thinking of whenever I see pictures like this:

What do you think about the rash of recent suicide attacks against Israelis by Palestinian militants?

"Suicide bombing is a perfectly legitimate method to end the occupation of our homeland....no, wait a minute..that's fucking insane!"

That's right, Goat-boy; a statement can appear to be hateful and biased and yet still be correct, and correctness is the only worthwhile basis on which we should judge statements.

So lets look at balance. Goethe-boy, help express the other bias. What are your sympathies?
Who wants to lay out rationale for this violent act? Can anyone say anything that will help me feel proud of or even sorry for Raed? I havent heard it yet.

Coming into this as late as I did, don't know if anyone will read what I've got to say, but I actually took the opposite meaning from the original post of the pictures...
Not saying there's a 'political agenda' by UnderToad, but I was thinking the pictures were showing just how destitute the Israeli occupation had made the Palestinians, that their only hope, the only way they see that they can make their home a better place for their children, which they appear to care for, is by blowing themselves up...
Didn't know I was supposed to be thinking 'Glad those fine upstanding Israelis are executing the dumb Palestinians' when I saw the pics... I got the opposite message out of them...

Oh well...

:3eye:


...back to (semi) lurking...

My view of the Palestinians is that they are not innocent either. In fact, I agree with with Thomas Friedman's assessment that they would have had a state 30 years ago if they had resisted non-violently rather than violently. I think that terrorism is one of the things that can happen after your people have been fucked over for a couple of generations. And, as everyone knows both the Israeli and the PLO admnistrations are to blame.

The view of people like Little Green Footballs seem kind of like: I don't care if your daddy has beat you every minute of your life up until now. If you hit him back, you're evil, and you're going down. Of course, they apply that principle only to their enemies.

What kills me is that Undertoad never responded to my criticism of Little Green Footballs. It's a site that he clearly relies on for his "facts"--which he sees as very different from opinion--(forgetting that the opinionated selection of the facts is the essence of subjectivity) as well as his pictures, and it's a hate site.

Again: Undertoad consistently paints the mideast crisis as if there is only one party at fault. There's not. And everytime you do it, I'm going to call you on it.

He didn't have to. Juju did.;)


aside- Welcome Blue.

LGF is not a hate site, I often mention them when I get things there, I didn't get ANYTHING for this post from there, and all this AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN misses the point that if you don't like my facts you have to

R E F U T E

them. Doesn't matter where they came from, doesn't matter who said them, doesn't matter what else they said, doesn't matter who talked about it in the comments section or why they said what they said. ALL THAT IS BULLSHIT.

Refute, with real information and real links, or go fuck yourself.

I didn't object to the "facts" that you are so proud of---indeed, he holds a Qu'ran in his right hand. I pointed out, and do again, that your tone is sneering, your selection of images is one-sided, your source is racist, and your perspective is skewed.

While I don't particularly "side" with one viewpoint or another in this tragic conflict, I do have to add my two bits from the lurker's chair that UT has been fairly unbiased while gothean has just been whining about the website and its operator instead of providing anything factual (or even emotionally moving, such as a picture of a carbombed PLO).

gothean, your bias is clear, and while on this website that's nothing to be ashamed of, you should be ashamed of the juvenile way in which you present it.

Geothean, I like the religion quote. I assume by your moniker you mean "Student of" Goethe.

Mr. Toad has an opinion, a bias, yes; we all do. We're all free to discuss them in this forum. Attack his veiwpoint, not the man himself. Nothing makes me want to ignore someone more than when they preface an argument with "You are", "You possess a quality I don't like", "All Americans", "You Isrealis", "You humans", or "We Elder Gods ...".

I can fully imagine that Goethe and friends would gather around with a nice glass of wine and debate for hours about the state of things political, religious, and scientific. This is no different.

Only there's much more in the way of intoxicants in our blood...

Oh, yeah, my moniker roughly translates to "Dog with tail". Uryoces sounded vaguely evil or divine, whatever. It stuck.

Apparently I'm the only one here that remembers why. It's actually shocking, since goethean seems to be the one who remembers every single palestinian article posted here, but I'll summarize, since I am too lazy to search for it:

I believe they look for body parts, as I recall from another IOTD posted here, to hold them up in a form of martyrship / icon, showing the wrongs brought upon them by Isreal. If I recall correctly, it's similar to the dark ages where people used to dig up the saints in hopes of getting a bone or hair that was supposed to be holy and have some form of power.

It's not exactly the same, because I don't think they're doing it as a holy relic type deal, but rather an icon they can parade around to the media to show the wrong done and to add more fuel to the fire, so to speak, for their cause.

It's very odd to see.

Now you can call me a palestinian hating something or other since I'm not painting them in a bright enough picture, goethean.


Quzah.

Let's take a look at common media for a moment, shall we?

In the news today, what are you more likely to run across:
a) Isreal attacks random Palestinian.
b) Palestinians attack random Isrealies.
c) Isreal and Palestine sit down to tea and scones.

Here's a hint: It's not usually C.

Given popular media resources, which of A or B are you likely to see images of? Well that's fairly obvious, since you always here:

"Suicide bombers did..."

Followed a few days later by:

"In retalialtion to 'suicide bombers did...', four villiages were leveled by tanks."

The news media paints Isreal's attacks always as retaliation. Somehow implying that that is ok, because they're just getting back at the Pallies.

Now personally I don't care how they paint it. The end result will forever be the same. They will both kill eachother for all of time. It will never end.

The good news is, we'll always have new IOTDs.

Oh, and simply put the word isreal in the search box and search IOTD, and you'll see the thread I was talking about in my last post. "palestinians swarm for body parts". Now I'm really surprised that goatie doesn't remember that one. Selective memory I guess.

Quzah.

I did vaguely remember that shortly after I posted my question, but I didn't want to say anything because I couldn't remember where I'd heard it from. Anyway, thanks, Quzah.

What is not bullshit - what is fact is that UT is completely one sided against Palestinians and for Israelis. What UT will not admit: All this violence and terrorist disappeared with the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords and a Palestinian state violate Likud objectives. To steal the West Bank, Likud needed to do three things:

1) Call for and get the murder of Rabin.

2) Do anything necessary to get more illegal settlements in the occupied territories - usually done by outright stealing of the best lands - in direct violation of International law, Israeli government assurances, Israeli law, and UN Resolutions.

3) Restart the intafada to justify more violence against arabs and to undermine any future peace initatives.

Likud got all three. Intafada II was started by Ariel Sharon and hundreds of his closest friends. They did many things to get the violence restarted including desecration of the Mosque on Temple Mount. The intafada is necessary to justify violence against Palestinians and to undermine everything created in the Oslo Accords. Anything that might stop the intafada - Sharon has done everything necessary to make sure that does not happen - while playing the mental midget George Jr with a mythical "roadmap".

UT refuses to even discuss these things let alone admit they are facts. He will never post pictures of how Israelis steal that rich land of orchard trees from a Palestinian farmer because UT is that personally biased. the Palestinian farmer must have been doing something wrong. Where are the pictures of Israeli solidiers killing children? And since Palestinian death rates are 3 and 8 times higher than Israelis, then a fair, unbiased man would show three to eight times more innocent and now dead Palestinians. UT never shows a dead, innocent Palestinian maybe because he does not believe there is such.

An Italian photographer was filming Israelis using live ammo in response to rock throwing. Israeli troops doing under orders of their commander what Israel said they do not do. So the Israeli soldiers shot and killed that Italian cameraman (sounds just like the *accidental* attack on the USS Liberty when Sharon's troops may have been massacring Egyptian POWs). Would UT put up such a picture. Of course not. He even refuses to admit that Isreal is lead by a dichead. A man known to have massacred 5,000 Palestinian women and children. A man that UT admires - facts be damned.

UT does post as if an extremist Likud. He still maintains those aluminum tubes were for a nuclear weaspons program when every fact said otherwise. Just another bias that he cannot concede. But then people have the right to post nonsense emotions - facts be damned. UT has the right to post extremist, one side bias in favor is Israel. He should be responsible enough to admit how extreme his biases are. He should be responsible enough to admit that all current violence is just what Ariel Sharon and Likud wanted - for the greater glory of Pax Israel.

UT is the same person who said there is no difference between a Palestinian and any other Arab. They are all the same people only emphasizes a "them verses us" bias.

While the rest of this thread is largely pointless I hae to say, after review LGF is if not a hate site, pretty damn close.

Try some of these comments for siize.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...ablus#comments


Hey look, they agree with dave!!

Because jews are more important than other human life.

:vomit:

Here's a more logical reason:

He probably doesn't post pictures of Isreal stealing land because... wait for it... It never makes the news!

You show me mainstream media coverage of this happening, with an interesting picture, and I bet it'll get posted. You know why you won't? Because it'll never happen. Mainstream media will never have said picture.

I doubt, but could be wrong, it happens, that there is some bias of why he won't post a picture of it. As stated, you'll never find a picture titled "Isralie grabs land!", because quite simply put, it isn't newsworthy.

I can see "Isralie tanks roll over Palestinian farm, set up shop", but, since nothing so huge happens, I really don't see it ever hitting the mainstream press.

See above. The news does cover it, however, it usually doesn't have the same impact. Put aside your bias for a second and read this line:

Bob straps a bomb to himself, walks into a bar, and blows everyone up.

Now read this one:

Joe bombs a warehouse where Bobbilians were making weapons in retaliation to a suicide bombing.

Which one has a more sensationalist headline? You obviously have no idea how news media works. It is far more justifiable from the average person's perspective to get behind the actions of Joe as right, than it is to get behind Bob, who blows up a bar because he doesn't like the color of the building.

For that matter, you could reverse rolls and the exact same thing would happen. People would start villifying Israel if they started telling their people to suicide bomb everyone. Also, if the Palestinian people only ever attacked as a result (which is how it is portrayed by mass media) of said bombings, people would get behind their cause way way easier.

And American troops tanked a journalist to death (boom boom tank shells) because they were too fucking stupid to know that a video camera looks nothing at all like an RPG. Last I looked, it wasn't here either. So what exactly is your point?

And if he did admit his supposed bias, what then? Then you'd toot your own horn some more on how you are right. Quite frankly, I don't think anyone gives a shit. Or maybe it's just me.

Quzah.

Yes, Jag, LGF has a remarkably hateful comments section... as do we at times. LGF is a magnet for strong opinions and often hate, just like we would be if every thread here was on this topic.

IMO the guy who runs it is completely biased and he has sadly gone over the top with it. He used to be more reasonable. But he's also a remarkable repository of information not available elsewhere because he's so relentless.

Clarification for the ever-confused tw: my point about the nature of Palestinians was that a study showed they are pretty much genetically identical to Jews, not that they are "same as any other Arab". That point is pretty much irrelevant to anything, except that it underlines how the same people from the same land and the same grandfathers somehow managed to figure out how to divide and hate each other for no good reason.

That is a big reason to participate in or at least read the other threads on the site. If you focus on one argument, the guy you are debating becomes one dimensional, making him easy to hate. Throw a broader net and you'll get a more realistic view of where he's coming from. I've thrown some pretty heavy stones at UT on this very issue and he never lit into me. Participate more not less establish yourself and fight for your position.

"And since Palestinian death rates are 3 and 8 times higher than Israelis, then a fair, unbiased man would show three to eight times more innocent and now dead Palestinians. UT never shows a dead, innocent Palestinian maybe because he does not believe there is such." -tw

Palestinian death rates related to the conflict are, according to Reuters, about twice as high as Israeli deaths. However, judging the situation by the body count is wrong.

In the IotD thread we are discussing, I have shown one dead Palestinian and one victim whose status we don't know.

The Reuters statistics will include the bomber, but if the child lives, not the child.

Sure there are innocent Pals killed in the conflict. I think the last time Israel blew up a car with bad guys in it, the bad guys' kids were also in the car. That's tragic and dumb, but letting the bad guys live didn't work too well either, and the bad guys cannot be allowed to use their families as human shields. Reuters will count them all.

There you go with your bias again! You're calling Palestinians "bad guys". :angry: :haha:

Quzah.

If I was really biased, I'd call the kids "bomblets".

(No smiley yet to say "inappropriate mix of horror and hilarity")

"biased"?

Try socio-pathic.

How would you respond to your children being called "bomblets"?

Hey look, you're a fuckin' retard!!

That's not at all what I said. I very clearly laid out what I believe has to happen, and I very clearly said that I didn't particularly want it to happen, but it's the only way to get peace.

Don't put words in my mouth.

The "more Palestinians are killed by Israel than vice versa" myth has been torn apart on the Cellar before. If you remove suicide bombers and those that are attacking Israeli soldiers (which is kind of a dumb thing to do if you value your life), the number of innocent Palestinians killed by Israelis is lower than the number of innocent Israelis killed by Palestinian extremists.

I prefer the more technically correct term: submunitions.

A rather interesting point that make sense considering where both religions (they are not called races) come from. Any further source of details?

Then since they're two tribes decended from brothers, it's just a family feud. Of course any cop can tell you how dangerous domestic disputes are.;)

Here are the three points - the reasons why we have all this violence in the Middle East and why peace was destroyed by the right wing extrmist Sharon:
Likud needed to do three things:
1) Call for and get the murder of Rabin.
2) Do anything necessary to get more illegal settlements in the occupied territories - usually done by outright stealing of the best lands - in direct violation of International law, Israeli government assurances, Israeli law, and UN Resolutions.
3) Restart the intafada to justify more violence against arabs and to undermine any future peace initatives.

Show me where UT discusses these points. He avoids these facts completely to, instead, post more propaganda for Likud.

I don't care if UT does or does not post in a biased manner. Either should OnyxCougar. That is UT's right as an American who should not worry about the Patriot Act. Outright deception is by those who refuse to acknowldge this bias - that such posts are one-sided only in favor of the same right wing extremist Israelis who restarted all this killing. Likud started all this violence first by calling for the murder of Rabin. They being different from good Israelis, now caught and becoming victims of Sharon and his extremist murders.

I must have missed where you posted your thread and invited UT to discuss it and he pointedly ignored you.

ABC News, the BBC and CBS News all reported how land theft works. The Palestinian's orchard is completely cut down because the orchard could be used by terrorists to attack a West Bank settlement road. No such attack occurred. But it is necessary for security.

Just a few small problems that those mainstream American and British news sources noted:
1) the West Bank settlement and road are illegal and should not be there.
2) when same is done to an Israeli farmer, he is compensated for loss of those trees. Palestinian gets no compensation because of who he is.
3) the farmer replants his orchard in the same place. But since trees take 3 years to produce, then the famer cannot meet his debts. How convenient for the illegal West Bank settlers who can confiscate the farmers land.

One need be totally uniformed - as Liza Thomas Laurie - to not see these news stories. However some would post here without first learning what happens in the world. It is situation normal for Israelis to confiscate Palestinian land for about 50 new settlements every year. After all, this land theft is a source and need for increased deaths in the Middle East. But then this is what Sharon wanted when he restarted the intafada.

Land theft by Israelis? Where does UT even acknowledge this common event yet alone show the pictures. One must acknowledge he is that biased when it comes to the Middle East. Land theft is noraml. UT never posts pictures of this event.

If this land theft was not happening, then where did all those illegal Israeli settlement come from? Where is the UT pictiure of Israeli's buying land from the residents? Why bother. It is legal to steal land from Palestinians.

As a CBS news report showed, the Palestinian farmer outrightly complained as Israelis built a new road right through his farm to an illegal west bank settlement. When the farmer complained, those Israelis laughed right in his face - right there on camera. They are the superior race. He is but a scum Palestinian. The racist hate was obvious. Another blunt example of land theft carried by CBS Network news. So BBC, ABC, and CBS are not mainstream? Not according to those who use Liza Thomas Laurie and Daily News for information.

I ignore tw all the time and vice versa.

There's this big lingering question that he has to answer, along with all the rest of you:

...and does this justify terrorism and suicide bombing?

They stole the land, therefore we can kill indiscriminately?

They put up settlements, so we can perforate children with nails coated in rat poison?

Sharon visited the Temple Mount, ergo their grandmothers internal organs shredded?

They think they're so superior but they're really all racist so do I really need to say it?

Why do they get this outrageous free pass?

Aw, c'mon Undertoad!
 

Everyone knows that only a white American male can be a true racist. All the others are just "defending their rights".

TW, this is the Image of the Day thread. Show me the pictures.

People still watch that?

I never said, or intended to say, that the Palestinians were any more ethical than the Israelis. I merely pointed out that UT's Likudian--good adjective, tw--coverage of the conflict implied that one side is more ethical than the other. And I would be satisfied if UT just admitted that he is simply on one side of the conflict.

Does accepting which side you're on invalidate an argument? Would the Nazis have gone away if the world didn't take sides? Why reach for a label if you have a point?

Good point Tom and welcome to the Cellar.
I think it's human nature, when you hear someone make a statement, to consider it "out of context" without doing a mental search for who the speaker is and and their passed statements.
This helps us sort out sarcasm and inconsistency. I'm not saying I approve, but I understand. :)

No, but the hypocrisy of those who think that they are moderating between the two sides, when in fact their position for all practical purposes endorses one side, is revealing.

Indecisive, but not indifferent
 

I can't pick a side on the whole Palestine/Israel situation. On the one hand, if the Western nations were going to re-establish an Israeli nation, they really should have used their own land to do it (New Jerusalem somewhere in Arizona?). Israel's rapid growth through hostile annexation of the locals' land during those early years bothers me, too.

On the other hand, the terrorists' tactics and the other Palestinians' apparent approval of them make it hard for me to maintain my sympathy for the Palestenians' suffering.

I am curious to see what will come of this new Great Wall that they're working on. If nothing else, maybe it'll keep the settlers on their own side.

I could completely misunderstand the situation over there, of course. My only sources have been a few books, a comic b...er, graphic novel and some news articles.

At least this latest project will give me a real fence to sit on. (ba-dum ching!) :D

If you're going to fence sit, be careful when you picket.;)

Well gee dave you sure seem to think the only Final Solution to the conflict is very, very similar to what I copied from LGF - complete crushing of any kind of freedom or independence of all Palastinians and draconian rule under the yoke of the Isreali Government.

You never explicitly stated that you supported such an event but your defence of it demonstrates you think it is the only solution.

I don't think he was defending it so much as predicting it.

Hey dave, you were right.. (about the helicopters anyway):

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/me...ast/index.html

"Witnesses to Sunday's missile attack in Gaza said the four Hamas members ran into a vacant lot near a base housing members of Force 17, Arafat's personal guard, when Israeli helicopter gunships fired at least two missiles about 9:55 p.m. (2:55 p.m. EDT), killing them. "



how wacky would this whole conflict be if both sides had attack helicopters.



what if both sides had (relatively) stable governenments and nuclear weapons ...... ... (?)


end of conflict? . ....




... how about a nice game of chess?

kashmir?

I don't appreciate you inferring that the end is Nazi-like, because it's not.

It's not a crushing of freedom or independence, and if you wanted to read what I actually said, you would see that.

I think it is the only means to actual <b>peace</b>.

If you're not going to bother actually reading what I write instead of getting two words in and taking it as something I copied from LGF (which I <b>don't</b> read), then I'm not going to bother taking much effort to respond.