Hey Ep, about this "All" idea... I like the idea of reincarnation, but am I reading you right in thinking that the soul that comes out of the pool is the same one that went into it? Perhaps just reformatted for a new life?
     Just curious 'cause I like the idea of getting to try again, but as an individualist I chafe at the idea of my mind/experiences getting mixed with those of others in some great metaphysical salad bowl.

Els......remember this post I made? I mispoke here. I was thinking about "idols", but said "deities" instead. Hence, I asked what they symbolize to you. In Catholism, I think "God" is our deity, but idolatry is a sin. I still don't think Catholics consider the Saints as deities, more like I said before that they pay homage to them. I guess they 'worship' them, but they do not idolize them, but I may be incorrect in using the term 'worship'. I think I'm getting caught up in a semantics thing, but I do know for sure that IDOLS are NO,NO's. So, do Wiccans have idols that they worship? And, if so what do they symbolize to them?

Wiccans worship lots of idols...in my own coven, we pretty much use any god or goddess from any pantheon which suits our immediate need. I wouldn't term what we do as worship in the Christian sense. We are respectful to the icons when we ask for their participation, but since we aren't concerned about these deities/idols/etc screwing up our eternal souls, we don't worship in the normal sense. Our deities are a part of us, and we of them.

Does that answer your question? BTW, we have a spiffy collection of graven images in our coven room. I'll have to post a pic of them...

Well, I'm no great authority. I'm only speaking from my own understanding/view of The All, but yeah, I think it is supposed to be the same soul. This supposedly explains past life experiences and such.

I'm rather puzzled about it all, too. It is the idea of coherent consciousness throughout that appeals to me as well. I think we all want to remain unique, ourselves, no matter what else happens.

I can't say that I have any past life memories, though. Then again, I haven't had any regressions or past life readings done, partially because so much of that kind of thing is flim-flam, and I am, above all, a logical sort of person.

Els, I'd love to see your pics. Post um when you get a chance, Please. My next question deals with spellwork and magic, which I note you spell differently than I do. So, what is this all about? These topics, along with the "external trappings" that we've discussed previously, are what most outsiders "fear" most about witchcraft. You know, people think that a spell was put on them and they are going to die or what not. So, what is spellwork and can you "put a spell" on a person so that bad things happen to them?

My own personal view of spellwork is that it is essentially the same thing as prayer, or the power of positive thought, etc. The path I follow specifically forbids me "putting a spell" on someone. I don't mess with anyone's anything unless I've been asked to do so. That being said, not everyone who calls themselves witch follows this credo. Traditional witches do what they want, when they want. "And it harm none, do as ye will shall be the whole of the law" is a Wiccan precept, not a witchcraft precept. The Law of Three is similarly something which is not necessarily adhered to by anyone other than Wiccans.

So does that mean you should fear witches in general? Naw...not any more than you should fear anyone else. You, me, everyone - has the power to protect themselves from the actions of others, be those actions magickal or not. Be confident, be aware, stand by your own beliefs, and you'll be fine. Be hypocritical, be an asshole, etc...and bad things are going to happen to you, whether from a direct outside source or via Karma.

For me, everything is a choice. It is difficult to do *anything* without causing harm to *something*. It is something that we debate often in our community. In the end, it boils down to intent. Good intent is generally considered to better than bad intent. Intentional harm is bad, and you are going to get bad in return thrice over. Sometimes, one must judge the risks and do what they feel they have to do...but that is a very long and deep topic. Wiccan morality and ethics is a constantly evolving thing, I'm afraid.

I just like to sum it up by saying "I'm a good witch!"

I'll post pics of the ritual space when I have a little more time. Oh...and regarding the spelling difference between magic and magick...it is pretentious, first of all, and I admit that. In general, I think we use "magick" to differentiate between what we do in spellwork and those parlor tricks involving making ping pong balls disappear and women being sawed in half.

Quote by Elspode
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"And it harm none, do as ye will shall be the whole of the law" is a Wiccan precept, not a witchcraft precept. The Law of Three is similarly something which is not necessarily adhered to by anyone other than Wiccans.
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I guess I'm not sure the difference between Wicca and witchcraft. The "bad witches" for lack of a better term, if not Wiccan, then what are they? If I met someone who said they were a witch, how do I know if they are a "good" witch or a "bad" witch?

When you do spellwork is it like sitting in a circle and chanting/praying? Do you actually do specific spells? Sabrina comes to mind, looking in her big Spell Book, following some recipe for a spell she wants to perform.

And, if you know of any examples, what kind of spells do "bad" witches think they can perform?

That's easy, you can always tell by the dark sky and background music.:D

Another way to tell
 

Check whether they appear in a puff of flame and red smoke or a pink bubble.

Funny guys (Bruce & Happy Monkey), but I'm asking the "good" witch, not you dorks:p

Everybody's got something to hide, 'cept me and monkey.:p

Well, therein lies the rub. Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan. Wicca is based upon ancient European belief systems and practices. Witchcraft existed a long time before Wicca. Wicca is a modern codification of older, indigenous religious practices and folk beliefs. How do you tell the difference between a good witch and a bad witch? The same way you tell the difference between a good person and a bad one, I suppose. If someone works some bad juju on you (no, not *you*, Juju), then you should assume they are bad. If they say they are Wiccan and have still worked some bad juju on you, then you might want to ask them to re-examine their path a bit. If you meet someone who says they are a witch, ask them if they are Wiccan. If not, that doesn't necessarily make them a "bad" witch, anyway. It just means they don't adhere to the same ethos as Wiccans. I know witches who aren't Wiccan and are spiffy fine folks.

Sometimes we sit, sometimes we stand, sometimes you do spellwork alone, other times with the coven. Do we have spell books? Well, some of us, yes. We call it a Book of Shadows in our coven (you may sometimes hear it referred to as a Grimoire, although we tend to think of that as more like a recipe book), and it is simply the accumulation of rituals, spells, journaling, lessons, etc, that one accumulates in the course of being a witch. For us, our BOS is a personal item, not to be shared. We have a coven BOS which is a record of the rituals, spellwork, etc we've done as a coven.

Yes, we do specific spells...it is sort of difficult to do a general spell. That would be kind of like asking someone for something that will make you happy for your birthday...you *might* get something you want, but the chances are reduced.

Well, pretty much anything you can think of, I guess. I'm not aware of anyone having been turned into a toad or such, but I have known of people who did things which were not intended to enhance the lives of others. I guess "bad" witches probably think they can do a lot more than they actually can, overall. It is all relative. If, as I said, one is cognizant and takes reasonable care about one's own path and lives honorably, it is probably going to be pretty hard for a "bad" witch to screw with you very much in the first place. Let me try an example, here...Let's say you have a good witch working for you, and also a bad witch. Let's then say that neither of them like you very much (which is highly unlikely, I am sure .:) ) The good witch might do a spell to facilitate a promotion, so that they no longer have to work under you. A bad witch would work a spell intended to have you fired, become ill, or otherwise gotten out of their hair in some rather more nasty way.

It all comes down to intent and approach.

I want to make sure I'm reading this right. So aside from the coven BOS, each individual witch has a BOS that is private and kinda like a diary for them? So, what exactly is in the Grimoire Spell Book? I'm trying to figure out if you have a spell for specific things like say, becoming more beautiful. Where you go to the Grimoire and look up a potion for "how to beautify somebody", then make up some drink with Green tea, two drops of bat's blood, a pinch of virgin hair, and rose pedals; then drink it and "Poof" you're beautiful:confused: Kinda lame example, but I hope you get what I'm trying to ask:)

Well, we are encouraged to have our own BOS, but not everyone keeps one. I personally do not have spells pre-written for varying purposes. When I have a desire or a need, I simply think about what I want/need (and why I think I want or need it) for awhile. Then, I start considering various aspects of spellwork, and how I can use the Elements, my magickal tools, candles, oils, herbs, moon phase, astrological portents, etc in some combination or combinations to further my spellwork.

It is really a bit too involved to go into in depth, because there are many, many angles and ways to approach spellwork. That's why we teach ourselves about so many different areas...well, one of the reasons, anyway.

I am woefully bad about creating specific spells and writing them out because, honestly, what works for me probably won't work for someone else. Spells are very personal, and it wouldn't do me any good to hand someone else a spell for a specific purpose...it probably wouldn't work for them at all. I just create spells as I need them. If there are any absolute, surefire spells that work for everyone who says the same words and uses the same substances, I haven't heard of them...and if anyone tells you otherwise, I'd be dubious.

When we do spellwork in coven, we discuss it all in advance and prepare each other for what we will be doing, things we will be visualizing, the herbs, etc, we will be using. In that way, we're all on the same page, working toward the same purpose. That sort of thing can't be accomplished by sending someone a bunch of words and instructions via email or something.

It is very common for young people to find their ways to witchcraft mailing lists, and ask people for specific spells. Usually, they'll get them, because, as I have consistently said, not everyone believes as I do or works as I do.

I have a friend who once was asked for a spell to change hair color (like in the movie "The Craft"...blech). His response? "First, light a candle that is as close to the same color as you want your hair to be. Concentrate on it with all your mind and soul. Then, get in the car, drive to Osco, pick up a hair dye kit of the appropriate color, and go home and make it happen."

The moral? *You* make things happen, and don't overlook the obvious and easy paths when they are right in front of you.

As for a grimoire, that would tend to contain things more along the lines of medicinal potions, or incense formulations, oil mixtures, candlemaking instructions, that sort of thing. Magickal potions tend to be concocted like spellwork (because without the spellwork, those things are just mixtures of stuff)...on an as needed basis, on a case by case basis. And, of course, this is only the way *I* do it. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has an extensive list of potions, spells, etc, and they'd be more than happy to give (or more likely *sell*) them to you. None of it will do you a bit of good, because the only way any of it works is by dint of your own will, your own intent, your own energies.

Did someone say my name?

Hey Els, Dagney has started a new thread called Christianity and Paganism in the Philosophy forum and asked if we might continue our conversation over there. I think it's a good idea. Also, she has posted a letter there that pretty much touches on stuff we have been discussing here. It seems to me that whoever wrote this letter has basically the same spiritual views as you. I ask that you read it when you get a chance and make any comments you have about it. It has helped me a little with my understanding of Wicca and witches and I want to see if you agree with it and where you might have differing views about it:)

I'll head on over there!

Hey Els, I'm back over here where it is safe. I just got my ass chewed over in the new Pagan Thread. It appears I have difficulty communicating w/ others. Funny, I didn't think *we* had any problem communicating. Oh well, goes to show how much I know. Anyway, I was curious how long have you been a witch? And, if any, what religion did you come from before Wicca? How often do you meet with your coven? Do you meet in the same place (like church, temple, etc.) or do you go to different places depending on what you want to "pray" about? I know you guys don't "pray", but you know what I mean.:)

Don't back off shy yet, LBZ...most of the folks here on The Cellar are pretty friendly...give 'em another chance.

I wasn't really anything before following my Wiccan path. I went to just about any and all churches in my younger days, trying to figure it all out. I found Christianity to be way too hypocritical and guilt-ridden, and just didn't ring true for me, so I drifted, not quite certain about anything except science for about twenty years. My best friend since HS (1974 grad) has been a witch for about twenty years now, and I was familiar with the path through her. I sort of slowly crept into the local Pagan community, and began writing for and editing the local Pagan publication that my friend published. She and I have also played music for over thirty years together, and a lot of that is traditional Celtic and Pagan-oriented stuff. I think I mostly woke up one day and said, "Hey...I think I'm Pagan."

Then I married a witch, and she started a coven after finishing her lengthy study under another high priestess, and so I've been working with my wife as her de-facto high priest for a few years now.

Our coven meets here at our house in a room in our basement set aside for just that purpose (go back to Philosophy and click on the link there for some pics). We meet every Sunday night (nothing odd in that, it was just the most convenient night, as it turned out). And we actually *do* pray, LBZ. Prayer is just a form of energy transfer, and it works. Doesn't matter to whom or what you pray, it is the *doing* that counts and causes things to change.

Anyway, go on back to Philosophy...no one is going to bite you, and if they do, I'll holler at 'em for you.

Not sure if I'm ready to enter the feeding frenzy over in Philosophy yet. I will for sure read anything you post over there though. I was just in the process of checking out your pics. Very interesting. Now I have tons of questions about all you're "graven" objects. After I finish looking at them I'll start asking, if you don't mind me doing so:)

About the quote above. This is exactly how I have felt about Catholicism. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and the whole deal about being born a sinner, and everything I do is a sin and I'm going to hell, etc. basically made me feel like crap about myself. And I still feel like crap about myself even though I don't really practice the religion anymore. I finally broke away when I got old enough and brave enough to tell my dad I wasn't going to church anymore, which by the way wasn't all that long ago. My dad's the kind of guy you don't stand up to without expecting to get your ass kicked for doing so. For example, I feel weird even talking negatively about Catholicism, like God is going to cease my breathing when I go to bed tonight and I'll end up on like the ninth level in hell. I don't really know if you care to hear all this crap, I'm sure you have your own problems to deal with, but for some reason I feel confortable talking to a complete stranger about it, well you anyway, Els. Not sure why. Maybe because I know that you don't buy into all that stuff so I don't have to worry about you passing judgement on me for expressing my views. Well, before I totally spill my guts out, I'll wait to see if you don't mind me talking to you about this stuff. I'm going to go finish checking out your pics. Talk to ya later:)
Oh yea, when you say you didn't believe any anything but science for awhile, you mean science like experiments, not science like Scientology (sp) right?

You can run but you can't hide. Bwahahahahahahaha.
Yo, BUGZ. Don't take it personal, don't make it personal. You're not stupid, after all you bailed out of Catholicism which is smart.;)
Posting is like standing in front of the class. There will always be somebody throwing spitballs or trying to crack you up. If someone disagrees with your post, it's just their opinion. If they link to some source, it doesn't make it true either. That depends on the source.
There are no private conversations here. That would defeat the purpose of the site, to obtain as much input as possible for you to sort through and make up your own mind.
Me and God love you. Don't you, Syc.:haha:

I wasn't attacking you. I was actually trying to help out, believe it or not. Anyway, you can't escape me by going to another thread. I read them all.

I don't think anyone was trying to 'attack' her either. (I most certainly was not. )

However, I've come to the conclusion that it's probably a Mars thing. People are misunderstanding each other left and right.


Dagney

Well, I wasn't really trying to run and hide. I realize anything I post is open to public view or else I would just stop posting or send Els PM's instead. Yea, no one was attacking me, whatever.

I realize Juju that you have attempted to be the communication monitor in this and other threads and I appreciate you stepping in to try and help the flow of communication around here. I guess I am just more comfortable over here in the Birdbrain thread where not as many people know what were actually talking about.

Bruce, I thought we had a fairly decent communication thing going on in the Cellar and that you knew where I was coming from with my sarcasm and all. I don't know anymore maybe I was wrong.

All I can say is I realize that I have difficulty dealing with others and thought that by participating in the Cellar I could learn to do this more effectively due to the somewhat anonymous nature of a forum. If people don't like what I post then they don't have to read it and aren't forced to reply. So it boils down to the fact that I'll keep participating until UT decides that I've pissed off too many people and kicks me out.

LBZ, what I meant was Science, as in experiments and observations, yes. Scientology is a religion that is based on...well, Science Fiction, and that is just a little too poorly underpinned for my tastes. However, it is a perfectly valid path, as is any religious path. If I expect people to accept and tolerate my path, I must accept and tolerate theirs as well, even if that means those who worship aliens from Antares or Zebras from Zimbabwe...

As always, I'll do my best to answer any questions put to me regarding my point of view and my path, so fire away whenever you've got one.

And Dag, I agree...Mars retrograde is almost as bad as Mercury retrograde when it comes to screwing up the lines of communication.

I think you could probably piss on UT's lawn and he still wouldn't kick you out. He's a pretty nice guy. :)

The dogs, however, would be furious.

Nah, I hate all of you for the most part.

I like most people on the Cellar...actually, I can only think of 2 that I really don't care for. LUVBUGZ has good potential...could win the Slang Award for Most Improved Poster if she pulls it together.

And even Dave at his most furious is usually illuminating, if you can get past being pissed off about how it is said.

Now Radar, on the other hand...

I think that LB is a genuinely <i>good</i> writer. I know you probably think I'm just saying that to be nice, but I'm not. It seems like she gives up a lot of herself when she writes.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Actually Juju, I think that's the problem. She's so into whatever she's saying that any disagreement and she feels she's under attack. This leads to the round robin of "Quit attacking me!" "I'm not attacking you..." "Oh, sorry." That we've seen with Bugz in several threads. She'll be fun to have around once she lets us express our opinions without taking offense.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Kind of like when a christian friend tried to convert me, the conversation ended after she yelled, "No matter what you say you're not changing my faith!" To which I responded, "This isn't about your faith it's about mine." (Or lack thereof) She didn't speak to me for months after that and never tried to directly convert me again. Now before anyone thinks poorly of my friend, she knows that I am open to anyone who wants to convert me to their belief system. It just hasn't happened yet. Conversion I mean. But I digress.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What I'm saying is that Bugz needs some thicker skin. That way a lot of what has made her feel attacked would just bounce off. Other than Quzah I don't think anyone has been hard on her. And I don't think he was any harder on her than he'd be on anyone else.

Strange that passion can bring alienation, isolation and loneliness, usually self inflicted, because passion often spawns intolerance of those that don't share it.:(

Els, I've got my first round of questions. To start with, I see you have 4 areas for the 4 elements, I also note that you are using your air (yellow) area as your eastern corner due to lack of space. So, along w/ the 4 elements, you also have north, south, east, west represented too? If so, what types of things do you have there? Are the 4 seasons incorporated into the 4 elements, or do you have seperate areas for them as well? It seems you'd need a mansion to seperate all these things, if in fact you do?

I'm gonna space out my questions so maybe it will be easier for you to just copy my post and add in your answer right after each question. Just a thought:)

Starting with the air area:
What do you do in the black caldron? Is it for "special" potions?

What is the powdery stuff in the gold "bowl", what do you do with it?

What do the owls symbolize?

Is that the knife you cut air with? You may have already told me, but why do you cut air again?

What do you do with the stick, or does it represent something?

What is the medal hoop thingy?

What do you call the wood thing with the "star" on it, suffering from CRS=can't remember shit, what's the "star" called, pentagram? And, what do you use the wood thingy for?

Let me know if this is more detail than you want to get into? I'll move on to the next batch of questions after I hear from you. Thanks Els for you time and info.:biggrin:

Els, I've got my first round of questions. To start with, I see you have 4 areas for the 4 elements, I also note that you are using your air (yellow) area as your eastern corner due to lack of space. So, along w/ the 4 elements, you also have north, south, east, west represented too? If so, what types of things do you have there? Are the 4 seasons incorporated into the 4 elements, or do you have seperate areas for them as well? It seems you'd need a mansion to seperate all these things, if in fact you do?

***No, no mansion...just your basic suburban 1,000 square foot ranch home of the early 60's with a mostly finished basement. The four seasons are not represented specifically in the four corners, although you can infer relationships if you choose. The blue area represents Water (there's a bottle of water from the Gulf of Mexico brought back to us by a friend, a fossilized fish, a seashell, a small statue of two snowsuited children hanging the Moon, a blue candle in a crystal base and a blue battery-powered light to help us see in the darkened ritual room) the Red fire (a couple of red candles, a piece of purple granite, a Varga picture of a redheaded witchy gal, a rack of essential oils, a small crystal sculpture of a bear with a red heart, and an old pic of naked women)and the green, Earth (a large piece of gypsum crystal, a faux plant, a fossilized leaf, a crystal sphere).

Starting with the air area:
What do you do in the black caldron? Is it for "special" potions?

***The cauldron is just that...a cauldron. Cauldrons represent the womb, the vessel of creation. We use it for all kinds of things, including, sometimes, potions.

What is the powdery stuff in the gold "bowl", what do you do with it?

***Incense, which we make ourselves out of frankincense, myrrh and cinnamon. It is specifically for ritual purification. We make other incenses, including some for cleansing, healing, etc.

What do the owls symbolize?

***Owls are creatures of the air, and symbols of wisdom. The element of Air is associated with intellect, among other things.

Is that the knife you cut air with? You may have already told me, but why do you cut air again?

***Yes, that is my wife's athame. Cutting the air is not really what we do with it...it is just a saying we have to reassure people that our athames are not weapons. Athames work in much the same way as a wand, only with more emphasis. It directs our energies.

What do you do with the stick, or does it represent something?

***The stick is a wand.

What is the medal hoop thingy?

***That is called a Priestess Circlet. It is a headpiece sometimes worn by my wife during ritual symbolizing that she is the High Priestess of our coven.

What do you call the wood thing with the "star" on it, suffering from CRS=can't remember shit, what's the "star" called, pentagram? And, what do you use the wood thingy for?

***That is a pentacle, and we use it as the focal point on the altar for ritual processes. When we create the holy water and put the incense in the burner, we hold the vessel above the pentacle for a moment, then raise the vessel in honor of the God and Goddess.

Hope this has helped...

Thank You Els:) I really appreciate the time you take to answer all my "pesky" questions. I'll get my next batch ready;)

Els, I just read your eloquent and heart-felt tribute to Warren. I don't know who he is, but your words compel me to find out, and I love Tom Petty who you mentioned was a close friend of his. I do have a guestion though which didn't seem appropriate to post there as I didn't want to take attention away from Warren or your thread's purpose. When referring to his contribution's made before "meeting the Reaper face to face", I was wondering are you using that as just a common phrase, or as a witch do you believe that when we die we will all "meet the reaper"?

I believe that the typical though on reincarnation is that you may or may not come back as human. It's not a given. Thus, if you think about it, there really isn't any reason to create new souls.

Consider the number of animals, insects, humans, etc on the planet. Now give them each a soul. Ouch, I see all you cringing at that one. You don't like your food having a soul. Ok, ignore that, and consider this:

You die. An ant is hatched. An ant is squished. A bird cracks out of the shell. A school bus full of kids plunges into the river, killing all aboard. Not only is this horrible, but it's more newsworthy than if it had been a Greyhound full of elderly. That aside, a spider builds an egg sack...

Anyway, all digs aside, to try and put it logicly, that would work. There are tons of insects and such. Millions of things are born and die every day. You might be one of them. That's my genral understanding of how reincarnation works.

I can see where many will have a problem with this. I mean, not only does your food have a face, it has a soul. :D And I'm sure most people would be appalled at the thought of coming back as a slug.

Quzah.

I was just coining a phrase. It is not a personal belief of mine. I'm not quite sure what to expect when we all make that change of state some day.

I recommend Warren Zevon's music highly. Although you don't know him, you might very well be familiar with the Linda Ronstadt song "Poor Pitiful Me", which was written by Warren.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Quzah you said a lot of things that don't make any sense to me whatsoever. I don't have any problem with the idea of my food having a soul. Why should that bother me?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For that matter if a slugs life would help a soul develop why would it be appaling?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Also, consider how much land has been paved over. Heck, consider how much the mosquito population suffered when New Orleans was built. A whole lot of swamp went away. I think as mankind has continued to build the numbers of critters has decreased dramaticaly. I'm just saying that sounds like a mighty big leap with that reincarnation theory. Of course it's also in the realm of pure speculation, so you can say toenail clippings contain the excess souls until they're needed and I can't say you're wrong.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By the by, I do eat meat and I kick spiders out of the house rather than kill them. In fact, I've got one spider right outside my door that I leave alone so that he can get the mosquitos before they get in. He does me a service, so I leave him be.

Hey Quzah, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm.....well......kinda, maybe......almost..... glad to see you're back. I sure got an ass-kicking while you were gone. I hadn't thought that there would be so many willing to step in where you left off:p. Of course, no one was "attacking" me, they were helping:rolleyes:, bless their souls. I love how you get in all the little digs, wish I could do that without getting a lecture on how to properly communicate in a forum, yadda, yadda, yadda. Anyhoo, I *personally* do not cringe at the thought of animals (fuzzy or otherwise) having souls. I sure hope they do. But, I seem to remember something in Hindu or Buddhism that each time you're reincarnated you move up the proverbial "food chain" so to speak. No offense ment towards you, you Vegan fool:p. That was sarcasim, not a personal attack on Quzah:rolleyes:. So, my point being that since we, you and me, are already at the human level I don't think we would come back as a slug. I like slugs, but I would hope I'm passed the slug level, assuming reincarnation exists. Oh, wait, actually I think I remember something about if you are "bad" as a human, then next time around you *do* go down a level or two depending on how "bad" you were. I really don't know if this is what reincarnationists think, but maybe someone else can shed some light on that.

Yes, I know that song, and I read Dave's post over there about "Werewolf in London". I know that one too, I love singing along to it. So I guess I do kinda know of him, but not about him or probably not too many other song of his. I have it on my to do list:)

:::confused::: ... but that's not poetic ...

A number of beliefs only grant the ability to have a sould to humans. To even consider something as "lowly" as a slug posessing said item would be unthinkable.

Furthremore, if you give the ability to have a soul to everything, then it seems like you'd at least pause for a moment to consider the effect your actions are having.

Unless of course, you feel that "lower life forms", even when given a soul, are less worthy of life than you are, in which case you'd just continue on merrily as you do now.

But what do I know. I just speculate.

Quzah.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I was just pointing out that you seem to make a lot of odd assumptions. Like just 'cause I like burgers you seem to think I kill anything that crawls into my house. Plus slugs are kinda neat, never put salt on a single one of them. Wouldn't do that, it's not in me. My point is you really are preachy as hell no matter what you claim. You've made it perfectly clear that us meat eaters are heartless bastards on a murderous rampage. That's cool though. Just thought you should know it. Preach to me, if you make a good enough arguement I'll stop eating meat. It better be a mind blowing awesome reasoning though. I like cow.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By the by, I figure if I'm eating it, and since I don't eat anything still alive, it's soul would've moved on by the time I'm munching away.

I think that's a good idea when we make alterations to the planet and its environment.
But when it comes to food, worms & fish, gazelles & lions and animals & I, will be on the same footing. :)

There's a difference between preaching[2] and recruitng. You can do whatever you like. It has no effect on me. I don't try and convince you that my way is better, rather, I treat you like an idiot^H^H^H^Her...you get the idea. ;)

I tend to generalize most comments.

Most people immediately try and justify their lifestyle upon learning I don't eat meat. (Because that's usually how the conversation starts. Me saying something like, "No, I don't eat meat.") If it's not that, then it's commonly something along the lines of "Well how can you possibly get enough protien?".

Because let's face it, most people don't have a clue when it comes to what you actually need for nutrition. Want me to back up my claim? That's easy. Look at most Americans. Would you like me to Super Size(TM) that?

Also consider that most people have no qualms about squashing an insect. It isn't even something they think about. Really, you get bit by a mosquito, what happens? You smack it. It's almost reflex. No thought involved other than "ouch, you bastard".

That really is the problem. No one even considers what they're doing. It's just done out of habbit. Not all habbits are good, for you, for the enviornment, for whatever.

Quzah.

[Edit]Fixed the double-preaching typo.[/Edit]

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Kind of funny, I get the same type of response when I tell people I'm not christian. The only difference is that it's more like, "Aren't you worried about burning in hell?" God, people are stupid. I think we, at least, agree on that...
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As far as treating me like an idiot goes, why not? I'll lift an Orange Juice in you honor. Later.

It seems to me that we value the life of other humans so that we'll get the same consideration in return if we're ever in a time of need. Given that, what possible benefit would I get from valuing the life of a mosquito or cow? I don't expect either of them is likely to rescue me from a burning building.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No, a cow won't save you from a fire. It does taste pretty good after it's been over a fire though. Thus, we do value a cow and take care of them and raise them. We don't eat mosquitos though. I guess that's why we gas them to death.

So you only value something if it gives you something in return? Interesting. I suppose that is the whole concept of value though, isn't it? If you don't get anything out of it, it's worthless? I get nothing other than an armfull of poison from mosquitos, yet I acknowledge their right to exist. Furthermore, I must have assigned some value to it, for I got out of my way to avoid smashing them or what not. (IE: The spider example, I catch and release rather than just squash them.)

I get nothing from the spiders, other than the occasional bite while I sleep, or a nifty web to look at, and yet, I let them go.

I often wonder if people had to kill their own food if they'd all be so eager to wolf down a burger. I doubt it. Oh sure, there are some who it wouldn't phase. Some probably who would even enjoy it. However, I bet a number of them would change their eating habbits.

I don't eat animals because there is no need, and because I have attributed value to their existance. It is not my place to tell them they don't have the right to live or to be used for my advantage.

Quzah.

I think the more annoying factor would be the extra work involved in feeding the cow while it's alive and processing the meat after it's dead. But people used to have to do that, didn't they? Back on farms? And they still ate meat.

Quzah, can't help but point out that there is only one "B" in habits. Since this is the third time you have mispelled it, I'm assuming it's not a typo:)

I tend to agree with this point, Whit. It kinda lends credence to my position against animal abuse/cruelty. Example: Assume the cow has a soul. Shoot, after thinking this out it isn't actually logical. I was going to say as long as the cow is alive and we don't hurt/abuse it, we are not harming it's soul. I was going to jump from there to say so it's OK to eat it after it is dead and the soul has left, but this is just wrong because in order to eat it *someone* must kill it, hence "kill" it's soul. Even if *I'm* not the one doing the killing, *someone* is and since I enjoy the benefits of the dead, soul-less cow, I am in effect also responsible for the "killing" of it's soul. Looks like I might have just scored one for the Vegans. I eat meat, but I have to agree with Quzah, if I had to kill it myself, I'd become a vegetarian real quick. That's *me* though. I know lot's of peeps who love hunting and would probably rather kill their own "meat", rather that get it from the grocery store.

[quote]Originally posted by quzah to juju

So you only value something if it gives you something in return? Interesting. I suppose that is the whole concept of value though, isn't it? If you don't get anything out of it, it's worthless? I get nothing other than an armfull of poison from mosquitos, yet I acknowledge their right to exist. Furthermore, I must have assigned some value to it, for I got out of my way to avoid smashing them or what not. (IE: The spider example, I catch and release rather than just squash them.)

I don't get much out of people, I guess maybe that's why I don't value most of them too much, but at the same time I don't kill any of them either. I, sometimes begrudgingly, acknowledge their right to exist.

Quzah, mosquitos don't inject "poison" into you. They release an anticoagulant to stop your blood from clotting, then they feed by sucking your blood. However, they can transmit disease during this process (ex. West Niles virus). I'm not suggesting you start killing mosquitos, but be aware that they do pose a risk to your health.

I get nothing from the spiders, other than the occasional bite while I sleep, or a nifty web to look at, and yet, I let them go.

Most times I don't even bother moving the spiders outside, they just hang out in the corners.

I often wonder if people had to kill their own food if they'd all be so eager to wolf down a burger. I doubt it. Oh sure, there are some who it wouldn't phase. Some probably who would even enjoy it. However, I bet a number of them would change their eating habbits.

As a meat eater and an animal lover, I've thought about this many times. Those two terms seem to be diametrically opposed and at times I find some issues difficult to deal with. I do agree with you on this and I fully acknowledge the fact that if I had to kill my own food, I'd quickly become a vegetarian, or vegan rather.

Not true, those spiders eat a tremendous amount of biting insects that carry disease. That spider could save your life.:eek:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I think you mispoke here. You wouldn't be "killing" the soul, just releasing it. Liberating the soul, if you will. Viva la liberation!

Agreed, Whit...if indeed 'soul' does exist, then by definition, it is a separate entity from the body which houses it while on this plane.

Thank you Queen Anal. I acknowledge your nit-picks.

The fact of the matter is, a mosquito bite itches. A spider bite itches. Thus, they are similar. It's much simpler to say you're poisoned by a mosquito than it is to say "I had an anticoagulant injected into me through the mosquito's proboscis, and as a result, I have a swolen bump on my arm that itches like a spider bite would."

Now run along and play.

Quzah.