I think a good "icky" to fight is just masculine women and feminine men. Some will transition, some will be gay, some will be straight and it's all just part of the beautiful human spectrum.

The transfolk I have known were last generation and seemed "born that way" or, as was thought at one point, influenced so early in childhood that it's the same thing. There seems now to be a new broader generation of people who are not exactly in that category. People who give up transitioning because they realized they were "just gay". I've seen a few of those stories.

Yes, goin' both ways. As I say up-thread 'i don't give a flip what people do to themselves (no matter how stupid or delusional) as long as i'm not payin' for it or are bein' forced to participate

That is incorrect.

Mastectomies for girls as young as 13 who have already decided to transition are medical procedures on children.

Using hormone blockers on a child is a medical procedure - it just isn't a surgical one - there is some evidence to suggest it can have an impact on their health in later life: though this seems to be particularly the case for female to male transition. There is evidence (I am not well versed enough to be able to say how compelling) to suggest that girls who block puberty and then transition through male hormones do not store sufficient calcium and are at much higher risk of osteoporosis.

I think it's a different situation with boys who are given puberty blockers - there seems less evidence of long term impact from the delaying of puberty.

There is also an apparent risk of infertility and other irreversible effects - though how much of that is through delaying puberty and how much through the use if male or female hormones to allow transition I am not sure.

There are also risks involved in not allowing transgender children to begin down the path - and they shouldn't be minimized.

Parents of trans children are between a rock and a hard place - and so are many health professionals - but there is, running alongside that an ideological drive by some to actively promote gender transition or genderlessness - (from kids shows on youtube singing songs for pre-schoolers about how everyone is really queer and teaching all about the multiplicity of genders on the spectrum (Moon Gender anyone?), to an insistence that you don't need gender dysphoria to be transgender and deplatforming academics and health professionals who disagree and who consider it the definitive reason for transition.


So there is a risk that youngsters who are not suffering from gender dysphoria, but are subject to other forms of body dysmorphia are finding themselves on the transgender track - all the whlle having that diagnosis validated and confirmed by that track so they end up on hormone treatments by the the time they are in their early to mid-teens: and if someone who doesn't actually have gender dysphoria
is misdiagnosed and treated as if they do, then this can actually create dysphoria by bringing about fairly radical changes some of which will not go away if they decide to abandon hormone treatment.

Again, this seems to be something which is primarily affecting girls who think they are transgender and then realise its something else, like anorexia, or anxiety about male attention.

There are cases of the above. How prominent that experience is compared to those for whom early transition partly or wholly resolved their gender dysphoria and allowed them to live a normal life, i don;t know - and I suspect few, if any here know either.

pistols, at dawn
 

I don't even care if I'm paying for it.

I mean, if I'm not, they'll just make more bombs with my money.

Boobs or bombs. You gotta choose.

Nope, just run up the deficit some more, we're only paying a Billion dollars a day interest.

Let's see...

I can buy fake tits for deluded folks...

...or...

I can buy big ass bombs.

I pick bombs (more bang for my buck).

I am being told, once again, that deficits don't matter.

A Billion dollars a day is a Starbucks latte for each person living in this country, each day.

Free daily lattes for everyone if we pay off the debt.

But I don't drink coffee, wouldn't want to poison my body with a drug. :haha:

How are you even alive?

Coincidentally, given my comment: Blaire White's latest, in which she tackles the accusations of transphobia she has received recently:

Oh look: exactly the thing I was concerned about...apparently this stuff is happening here as well. I am familiar with the clinic in question as a friend / colleague of mine was campaigning for changes in the funding formula and routing back in 2010:

I misspoke by not clarifying that "trans people make me feel icky" wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I didn't mean anyone in this thread or anyone referenced here.

My apologies, as the main discourse about trans people currently in circulation is a never-ending string of angry patriots shouting "why do [trans women] want to shove tampons up their butt!" and a very tired army of people replying, endlessly, "the sanitary products are for trans MEN"

"the sanitary products are for *trans MEN"
 

*deluded women

but not TRANS women

They're deluded men who'll never need a tampon, no matter how well crafted their ya-yas are.

------

Mebbe sombody wants to post most updated version of the list of the 217 genders (and counting)?

I got no clue on any of these variations on a theme beyond women lookin' to be men, and men lookin' to be women.

If you really want to, it's easy to start by understanding the first two, the ones you mentioned:

"women lookin' to be men" are Trans MEN
"men lookin' to be women" are Trans WOMEN

Next, "non-Binary" = doesn't identify as a man OR a woman.

That's, like, three. That's the three main ones.

AFAB = "assigned female at birth"
AMAB = "assigned male at birth" --these two mean what's "in your pants" more or less

Queer means, "something" unconventional. non-specific

Cis means nothing unconventional-- you look like a man, have a penis, and call yourself a man. Or vice versa

So that's, like, seven new words.

Pop Quiz! AFAB Trans Man. Do they need tampons?

Okay, this is a girl who wants to be a guy, right?

So: plug it up (unless, of course, she goes all out and has her plumbin' gutted).

Probably not after all the hormones and shit.

Not everybody can afford hormones, has started them, or even wants to do them at all. Trans people don't "become trans" because they started a medical procedure, therefore they are not "less trans" because they haven't done one.

The question is ambiguous as it doesn't differentiate between transgender and transsexual. The above responses are correct for each individual's interpretation although the response for another interpretation can be argued (i.e. trick question).

The term trans man is used as a short form for either identity (transsexual man and transgender man).

:corn:

Please do go on.

I'm fascinated.

Pam!

What's your take on how gender dysphoria should be tackled in youngsters ?

Welp, since you asked...

I don't hold with youth transition, despite being at odds with trans orthodoxy. I'm cool with crossdressing and makeup and hairstyles and lots and lots of proper therapy, but absolutely no interfering with body chemistry until they are old and wise enough to fully understand the consequences and risks. And there are many. Serious, even life-threatening consequences that many supportive therapists and well-meaning friends don't mention.

Something like 80% of children change their mind around 15-18 years old. Drugs will ruin any chance of a normal relationship for those.

When I was eight, I knew for SURE that I was really an astronaut. I wore NASA hats and patches, had stickers on my laundry hamper, even a lunar lander tent in the yard. But that didn't make me an astronaut. And I changed my mind like 100 times since then.

I also do not really hold with even bringing the subjects of transsexuality and homosexuality up with children who still think muppets are real. The subject matter is far too mature and complicated for such young minds who are struggling with weighty topics like pb&j or grilled cheese for lunch, who would win, Superman or Batman, multiplication tables and phonics (do they even teach that anymore?) Let kids grow up at their own pace and answer questions as they come up with answers that are age-appropriate.

I once explained to a seven-year-old about Santa when some smart-arse at school told him that Santa wasn't real. Wasn't easy, as I remember when I found out that there was no real Jolly Red Elf. But it wasn't until my late teens that I finally understood that Santa isn't a real person, it's a concept personified by a fictional character to make it understandable to young children (and coerce some good behavior for a month :) )

The same goes or so-called gender identity. The concept is too complicated for a young mind. Let them explore and don't panic. Don't push anything and nearly all of it will evaporate in a little while.

And while I'm on the subject, I have been hearing lately that there are some people trying to eliminate the "gatekeeper" model of therapy so that hormones and even surgery are as easily obtained as aspirin and a nose-job. As much as I dislike having to justify and "prove" myself to some shrink that listens to new-age music and has a mood ring on her desk, there is a very good reason or this and it should remain and maybe even get strengthened. Read Walt Heyer's website. Read the stories within. There is a common thread to most of them. Nearly all somehow bypassed the disinterested third-party observer who can say stop! Rethink this before you do something that you cannot take back or undo.

To sum it up, no one should push children to do anything other than their chores and homework. Transition is not for children, any more than liquor or tobacco or tattoos are. All have negative consequences and should be left to adults to choose or not. Never children. Wearing a dress isn't transition. It's playing dress-up, which all kids do to some extent. It's 100% reversible and harmless. Makeup washes off. Hormones change stuff internally and cannot be reversed.

Some people need to realize that it is okay to be an effeminate boy or a masculine girl. One of my best friends growing up was a total tomboy. She is now a healthy and happy woman. That doesn't make the kid trans.

So just chill!

Oh, one other thing. That young boy in Texas who was in the news recently. His mother is using Genecis for the transition care. They are notorious for pushing transition and never challenging the patient to consider NOT transitioning. They assume everyone brought to them is trans and does everything possible to see that they transition, even strongly encouraging kids who are wavering to stick by the program and keep going. This is very wrong. All people considering transition should talk to both sides before starting. Talk to someone who has transitioned and someone else who has DE-transitioned. Or at least watch a lecture.

One of our losg-lost users, Lisa, once described her transition to me as "she dragged herself kicking and screaming into the operating room". That's how it should be. As we say, "Transition ain't for sissies!" That is very true. I, myself, am always questioning myself and analyzing my motives and checking to see if I have changed my mind. So far, all is good. I'm happier this way than I've ever been. But all of life's problems are still there, no matter what. Being a girl doesn't change a thing when it comes to paying the bills, or the car breaking down, or the weather or winter blahs. The depression is always there, lurking but really nothing more than a dark corner of my mind, something that goes bump in the night but won't hurt me. It only affects me at low points. It goes away if I talk to friends or force myself to do something positive. My therapist challenges me all the time and that's a good thing. A therapist who only supports me isn't helping me really.

That young boy's mother is harming him with kindness, not helping him. His father is right. I support the father in his fight to stop the rush to transition.

I'll get off my soapbox now and let my opinion percolate. Agree with me or not.

Love

Pamela

That's good insight. Thanks for opening up.

Pam
 

:thumbsup:

You ought to feel great right now because you've just done a very very good thing.
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to share. :notworthy

Pamela is right on the money.
And speaking of money, it would seem that a bunch of folks have figured out a way to make it.
Cui bono? Not the children.

Thanks for that insight, Pam. I think you've nailed the key problems with child transitioning.

I also totally agree with this: 'Some people need to realize that it is okay to be an effeminate boy or a masculine girl.'

Absolutely. Bizarrely, we seem to have moved away from what was a growing idea that there are many ways to be male and many ways to be female and in some ways stepped back towards more fixed notions of masculinity and femininity, by default - if people who are simply a more masculine girl or a more feminine boy are identifying, or being encouraged to identify, as the other gender because they don't seem to fit comfortably into a standard notion of what male and female are like... it seems a retrograde step to me.

Many of us feel at various times, particularly when growing up, as if we don't entirely fit our gender - we see a particular way of being male or female on tv, in our schools, in culture generally and it doesn't reflect us and that can make us question ourselves in various ways. I think there is a danger in misreading that as somehow akin to the far more profound (as I understand it) sense of dislocation and wrongness that transgender people experience. And it speaks to a tightening of gender conceptions if to be a more masculine girl means you must therefore be male, or to be a more feminine boy means you must therefore be female.

Hmm...

Who in the world imagines that parents objected to ear piercings (on a girl, no less!) in 2000? You'd have to go back to at least 1950 for that attitude, I'd guess. First panel should be "bellybutton" instead. (Y'know, since no one asked for my critique and all...)

She seems to be referring to one ear and has her hand on the right side of her face. I thought that right side piercing being indicative of gay/lesbian sexual orientation was less prevalent by 2000; but, that could be what it's about.

Depends on the age of the girl, also on ethnicity. Some people of Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian descent in New England do baby girls before their first birthday, others make them wait till High School.

Parents can be so unpredictable and exasperating. :lol:

Lifesite News?

They're about as credible as your standard UK tabloid.

Besides, that's Canada and they're sorry. ;)

I don't know anything about the site, the story is what caught my eye.

Is the story wrong?

If it was on Lifesite, it is automatically at least suspect. They're pretty infamous for just making things up, or deliberately misrepresenting things.

It's amusing how transparently biased that article is. They report on a gender issue and make the editorial decision to refer to the child as "she" and when the judge refers to the child as "he" they throw a [SIC] in after it.

Lifesite doesn't make any pretense of being unbiased.

So: the site is biased.

Okay.

Best I can tell pretty much all outlets are.

But: is the story wrong?

But up to 2014 we all would have expected the [sic]

This reflects a cultural bias that reflects a majority* opinion. She is a 15-year-old girl who wants to be a boy and is in transition. Most people would insist that AB's pronouns reflect her current biological categorization, especially as a teenager. It doesn't really matter what she wants, legally; and it doesn't automatically change if she is taking hormones on the way to transition.

That attitude may be, um, wrong; who knows, it is a crazy issue.

However, in Canada, it is damn near illegal to refer to a transitioning person with anything other than their chosen pronoun.

The article is clarifying the judge's incorrect language for its readers.



*I have no evidence it is majority, that is just a guess on my part

Oh and I wouldn't trust the article.

It does us the favor of linking to the actual court transcript though. The actual facts will be in there.

For anyone who wants to do Henry's work for him.

It's difficult to discuss the child without revealing your own personal bias.

Kind of like reporting on Burma/Myanmar.

or Kyiv vs Kiev

I've grown used to saying they for the gendered pronouns, but it was hard on the wiring.

I read the transcript before I posted the link.

No one, however, seems to have bothered to read it before declarin' the site biased and the story as suspect.

That's why I kept askin': is the story wrong?

I knew/know the answer.

Do you?

I just skimmed the transcript and the facts are essentially true.

It's a Jerry Springer episode.

The dad feels like he's fighting for a principle, but he's losing his family in the process.

Watched two earnest interviews with de-transitioning women in their 20s, and it is terribly sad.

I did not know that: the uterus needs estrogen somehow (I am not a doctor) and f2m are damaging the organ with hormone adjustment. One of the interviews tells the story of an f2m who almost died because the organ failed, five years in, and there was an infection and ... ugh

Seems to me: the dad simply loves his daughter and desperately wants to stop her from injuring herself.

I think you're right but we don't know if what he's attempting to do is best for her. Brass balls does not equal crystal balls.

We know this: if dad were to prevail, his daughter, at the worst, is stymied only till she reaches the age of majority. We also know, based on posts and links in this very thread, if she is allowed to proceed, she may be doin' herself long-term, mebbe irreversible, injury.

In context: what seems best for her is clear.

I see your point, and again I agree, but probably at this point the rift is too big to ever bridge.:(

If dad is motivated by love, then I'm thinkin' the rift, as painful as it might be, is not a top priority for him. I imagine he's willin' to suffer separation as long as his daughter is safe (from her own, perhaps transitory, impulses).


Adulthood (legally recognized) is just around the corner for her. It's a shame she can't be persuaded to wait, just a bit.

Ask a teen to wait? Good luck with that. :lol:

And, ask a teenage girl if she is comfortable with her body :|

I don't ask my 13 year old: I tell him.

'nuff said.

FYI: the site is 'biased', the piece (and internally-linked pieces), opinion.