linky

Some sort of adjustment is going on...

I heard that people are applying for second citizenship programs with bitcoin investment. how crazy is that?

This looks like an ad for something nobody wants.

glatt put a bullet in that brainpan.

I've got the time and the interest in these cryptos so now's a great time to learn about them.

"While there is not a lot of good data, actual users of decentralized applications seem to fall into two categories:

*People who are off the grid: that is, in countries where access to competently operated traditional services is limited (for any number of reasons) but where internet is not
*People who want to be off the grid: that is, people who don’t want their transactions censored or known"

Good information there, Bruce. I'd like to add a category to the above quote.

*those that move around so frequently and or have no predetermined duration at a given specific location that keeping traditional financial data is tedious. Specifically, a physical address.

Great questions. True.

I'd like to use them on a small scale as a savings account. There aren't a large number of businesses that accept cryptos at the moment for a few very logical reasons. Large price fluctuations.

There was a great deal of interest a few years ago with the cryptos, prices climbing for a wide range of coins. Until so many people that didn't understand the technology lost so much money to hackers.

I don't expect to be mining. Or day trading. My goal is to understand the ups and downs of cryptos in general.


The electric consumption seems to be in the mining. From the green perspective I can see the objection to mining cryptos.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are a conventional person living a conventional life, you are most likely not terribly excited about cryptocurrency.

Not all unconventional people and living is criminal. So, this is of great interest to me.

But as yet not understood. There's not enough money in my life budget to lose large amounts so I'll get in cautiously. With small amounts.

I did find a company that deals with the security and storage of cryptos. Not so much in the trading but just keeping what you have mostly safe from hackers and how should I say...ENORMOUS GOVERNMENTS in decline. Not failure, but decline. Mostly caused by corruption, but that's all my opinion.

Link

They have a rather interesting procedure to store and retrieve currencies that I've not seen before.

Just because I've not seen alternatives doesn't mean there isn't equivalent services in the market.

It's an interesting site and service. If you happen to be sorta like me.

You can pay companies to mine for you. I can see how the companies would make money but I am not sure how the customer could make money. Is hitting paydirt, so to speak, basically random? Kind of like gambling?

Those are great questions, glatt. My only answer is that I don't know yet.

Everything is based on the trading price I suppose.

And hitting pay dirt, mining coins has been described to me as more difficult and costly as you approach the maximum number of possible coins.

@glatt
It's really a lot closer to mining than it is to gambling. Gambling has a known input and a known chance (mostly). Bitcoin mining is like mining for gold in that a desired endpoint is sought and the work done to reach that known goal starts in some direction/with some intial numeric input. Gold miners dig dig dig and then either hit a nugget or they quit and start a new dig in a different direction. Bitcoin miners calc calc calc and either hit a target hash that is validated by the blockchain network (nugget!) or someone else hits it and they start anew seeking a new target hash (give up and start digging a new hole).

Super. Extra. Over. Simplified.


--Still--

You must grasp blockchain (an appendable, unerasable, distributed, verifiable ledger (with caveats, it is the future after all)) before you should do fuckall with Bitcoin.


Pretty good blockchain primer:




Very good Bitcoin mining primer:

https://coinsutra.com/bitcoin-mining...ide-beginners/

@slang

Not bein a jerk, I promise.

What is money? What is a dollar? What is a Bitcoin? They're tokens backed by trust.

Bitcoin is differentiated in that the trust is distributed across the network that maintains the blockchain. This is unlike money which is a token backed by a government (or some other entity). What is gold? It's a medium that can be traded for other things. Things like money/bitcoins/other cryptocurrencies/goods/services/other currencies/etc.

It's a fungible medium of transactions, and which you like more or less will be influenced by how much trust you have in the backer of the medium/token. US Dollars--trustworthy. Venezuelan Bolívares--not so much. The trust *matters*.

I get the block chain protection that you own certain Bitcoins so they can't be (theoretically) stolen, and if you trade them for something you can't say you still have them and use them again.

I've also seen the price/cost/worth of one Bitcoin vary from a few dollars to thousands of dollars for whatever reasons.

The video says you can do a deal, one on one, with people around the world.
How do I discover this person I don't know in Timbuktu, and what they may have for sale?
How do I discover a company in China makes something I would want?

If a Bitcoin is worth $1,000 today, how do I buy something worth $200, or $1400?
If I buy something from that guy in Timbuktu, block chin proves I paid for it, but how do I prove I never received it?
If I tire of Bitcoin how do I get my money out?
So many questions, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

0k. I believe you. You have such a polite manner V. It's rare. It's appreciated. :)

Much of the following commentary will seem strange or wrong to most people. And, my sources are not from the NYT or Scientific American or even the Economist (hat tip - TW).

But probably not from Wired, Reddit and themillenniumreportDcom

Maybe I can articulate some thoughts that I live by. Not specifically with cryptos yet but money, credit and currency. Money, credit and currency are different animals. Different rules for each. Different uses too.

They are all backed by trust, that's true.

Let's start with money first. Money is the valuable thing. It's not a derivative. It is valuable alone by itself. But it's not practical to trade with. Conducting trade would be done with currency. Currency is a derivative of money. Currency can be printed or digitized at will. There are no limits to it's expansion. Money is limited as to it's expansion.

The more the currency is expanded, the less worth the existing currency is worth. BUT the money stays essentially the same. It's the real deal. You can't print it. Or digitize it. It's of limited supply. It cannot be expanded on a whim. It takes time and or effort to "make" money.

The paper dollar is currency. The digital dollar too. They can and have been expanded to suit what ever need or want the US gov't has at the moment. They can be manipulated. One year there's a trillion dollars in existence, the next there are 100 trillion.

In my estimation the only reason that there isn't massive inflation is that the dollar currency is mostly used outside the US. 80% by some stats I've seen. The US dollar is the reserve currency. More practical than money and can be used all over the world.

A bitcoin is digital currency that can only be expanded by mining. It's not physical which is technically a requirement of money, but it's limited. "Gov't" "bitcoin" cannot decide one day that it doesn't have enough buying power for it's needs and expand itself by a billion times. And it's decentralized. It's not backed by anything except the faith in the code and the internet.

Now for credit. It's a promise to pay in the future. With certain pre-determined terms. The "currency" for credit does not exist. Nor does the money. It's a ledger entry. Digits added to your bank account.

Yes, it's true that you can still buy what you want with the digits but the more digits in circulation the less buying power those digits have. If you are the US gov't it doesn't really matter though, because they print at will.

Can YOU print a trillion dollars for what ever YOU want to buy? It's a scam. And the world is getting wise. Dollar digits are still convenient, but there are other currencies with expansion limits.

One is bitcoin, though I do not expect it to replace the dollar. I expect it to lead to a crypto that will.


Some people believe that being backed by the US government is declining in confidence.

The entire world must grow or manufacture things of value for dollars. The US treasury does not. It only needs to tap digits on a keyboard. Nothing of real value supplied. Except currency that is in decline.

Gold is different. Gold isn't the promise, it's the delivery. All the work has already been done in mining and refining. There is no future promise with gold. It's in your hand. Not particularly valuable in industry but it's hypnotizing. Beautiful. Rare. Stable. Fungible. Divisible. Physical. It's money, in my opinion as well as many in Asia. Not so much the west because the west has sold or loaned much of their gold into the market to keep the price down. Now that they are out of gold, they use naked shorts on the comex and pay out in...you guessed it, dollars. You ordered gold at the comex specifically because you didn't particularly want dollars, you wanted money. :lol:

Every year or so you see some group scamming the comex, sponsored by some mega huge bank. It stays pretty quite on the news and no one understands what's happening anyway so why would I care. :lol:

Gold is kryptonite to the dollar. The higher the price of gold goes, the less people think of the "dollar promise". The more that they see inflation. Those same people want something they control. They want gold.

Do you remember when gold was around $275 an ounce? I do. The currency supply was much lower then.

Yes, I agree. Don't forget the supply, but yes.

US dollar currency, trustworthy but declining. It's still strong on the USDX but gold is going up too. And dollars are available. Other currencies are most likely not. Not in the way dollars are. Because they're everywhere. :lol:

Plus the Fed actually keeps track of those numbers on the bills. I've bought things in the Philippines with all cash. Things that aren't cheap. I thought that dollars were as good as gold but I learned something. They are after the Fed verifies the denomination and the serial number. It seems that some other countries like NK want a piece of the printing out of nothing action but they don't have the correct serial numbers. :)

Now I'd like to add another layer to the confidence component behind the US dollar. Military threat.

The USMC. The military actually but there are always marines off your shore somewhere. And they're pissed off. And they want to break things and kill people. And they're good at it.

Why would you want these guys on your shores for a lack of interest in using the US dollar (for oil purchases)?

People losing faith in the US dollar and using it and holding it destabilizes that expansion concept. It's a big deal.

Can YOU print a trillion dollars on your keyboard at will? It's a big deal.

So that's my take on the issues. I'm not an economist or a finance guy or an engineer or a rodeo clown so I could be completely wrong on all my observations and opinions. That's my take at this time just the same.

Yes, pretty secure system it seems. So long as the internet is up and running.

It's my guess that the price went down because so many people were not using the cryptos securely and were hacked.

If I had taken a beating like that it would turn me off to the whole notion of buying them too. Until I learned how to use them effectively anyway.

With crypto currencies? That sounds right but I'm not an expert. Peer to peer too I would guess. In that case if there was an agent separate from the vendor it might be feasible.

Let me think about this. I'm in the Philippines now, I log in to the site and execute a sell order that I will be using to pay for something far away. In China, lets say.

First off, you need to make an appointment with Daenerys Crypto at least a day in advance ( know your time zones ) so that they may set up their process to send the crypto.

Ok, I have my appointment...we are in process of the validation for the crypto now and with my other computer or phone, I call or video stream the vendor in China. My Ingrish translator is up and running.There is an additional party there in China to take delivery of the physical item? Or maybe you trust Mr. Lee. You've done business before. He's reliable.

As I ask the Daenerys Crypto people to hold a minute while I'm talking to Mr. Lee, they are assessing my face on the video which is a part of their security process.

They then believe it's me, I execute the transaction to Mr. Lee's bitcoin address. We wait 10 minutes or so for the bitcoin to go through the blockchain.

Then Mr. Lee gets confirmation. I thank the Daenerys Crypto people and end their video transmission.

Mr. Lee has the shipping website up and ready for his confirmation, he's already received it and now over video he gets the tracking number and displays it over video. You make a screen shot and verify that tracking with the shipper.

The "third party" takes the physical item to the shipper and now you must trust someone else for the delivery of your thingy. :lol:

You thank Mr. Lee and end his video feed.

But what if the item is faulty? How do I get a return?

Maybe through video feed he can demonstrate the thingy. Maybe he's got a process that is thought through and is sort of a standard "proof".

Or maybe it's such a low cost item that it doesn't really matter. You're getting a huge discount from ordering in China direct, he has a reliable feedback, or you've ordered before and are willing to take a chance for a much lower price.

But as far as I know, there are no charge backs. Not from a third party anyway. Third party certificates but what is that really worth?

The process just described is a bit long and complex. If you were to do a few deals on a small scale it wouldn't take long to get good at it or decide you'd rather use another payment method.

Alibaba dot com. They have some equivalent of Ebay too but I'm busy typing and don't want look it up on the net.

Alibaba would be my first go to. Never ordered from them so I can't really detail any results but the prices are good and they seem to get good feedback. It's the site that sells everything that they make in china. Amazon like.

Bitcoin is divisible. I believe out to like 5(?) decimal places. Promoters were describing that in a few years the price would be so high that the decimal places would be relevant. That hasn't been true yet but maybe someday.

Say a bitcoin price is $3950. Then you would use .05063 of a bitcoin for a $200 purchase. Plus .01 transaction fee of a bitcoin if you used Daenerys Crypto. Larger purchases might make more sense.

Or maybe...proposals we are seeing in the firearms industry now, through political pressure, financial institutions are pressured not to work with gun manufacturers.

If the banks decide they will no longer transact "x" products, bitcoin might make more sense.

Sell it on an exchange. The price fluctuates but you can cash out. Some exchanges are more newbie friendly than others. If the value does increase as you sell, you'll have a tax liability too.

Link

Yes, great questions here. We're sorting it out together.

Here's a mining company from the net.

The mining is powered from geo-thermal so the bitcoins produced shouldn't kill the planet.

Genesis Mining will not publish returns on their mining which, in this case, does seem a lot like gambling.

There is this graph that shows the historical return but how accurate is it?

Another detail is that the "plans" that allow the use of their super-duper-luper fast and reliable machines to mine for subscription seem to be booked with the exception of one. Dash.

The newer the coin, the more potential profit? I don't know.

There is an option to buy a starter plan for $57.50 but if the yield is .0331 it would generate a $0.165 profit. Add to that the duration of the plan, 2 years.

I'm sure there's more to this that I don't understand. On the outset it doesn't seem like something encouraging.

Chatty today.

Another news item that seems relative to the conversation of gold being money.

"A team of Chinese researchers have turned cheap copper into a new material “almost identical” to gold"

If this turns out to be true it would be a game changer IF they can create this new "almost gold" at the same price or lower than spot.

And assuming that there is no effective testing method to identify gold from "almost gold".

It would probably confuse the issue of gold is money at the very least.

your link produces this in my browser:

about:blank#blocked

Gold is an element, and is hard to fake and impossible to create.

(I think that sentence may be the conclusion of several centuries of the history of chemistry)

If they have worked out a way to improve copper's conductivity that would be nice. They aren't making gold or anything that will fool anybody into thinking it is gold.

It's also important to remember the 40-ish years when gold was illegal to own in the United States.

Sorry, V. Did I test the link before posting or is there a Chinese conspiracy?

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...rn-copper-gold

My posts are too long. Duh. JHC.

Yes. And the DUX ( spectrum analyzer ) would detect anything other than the element, gold. Yes. Good point.

If there were another element or even a "new" element included with a test sample it would be known very quickly.

Good point, Clodfobble.

Tricky Dick took the dollar off the gold standard some time in 71, IIRC.

Before that disconnect one wouldn't need gold since a paper dollar was effectively gold. It was backed at some ratio to gold.

There were exceptions for jewelry but digging a big hole somewhere in your backyard to bury bullion wasn't even possible. The US gov't had the bullion gold in vaults.

Gold wasn't available to the public again until sometime in '75(?) because it was technically no longer money, it was just an element. The dollar was backed by the full faith and credit of the US. An individual didn't have the FFAC so they wanted gold bullion and started buying it.

Using that definition, then how is money related to liquidity?

Is a debit card in the category called currency?

Is a credit card classified as both credit and currency - since it does both functions?

If one has a good amount of money (gold, silver, house) but still cannot transact I would call that cash poor. You're worth a million dollars but still can't pay the electric bill.

That's a good question though. Having money isn't always the best situation. Currency is good to transact but varies in value. Slightly in the case of the USD.

I would say yes. Times 2. Your digits in the bank fund the electronic transfer currency, the card.

The debit card is unique in my opinion because it doesn't incur debt. There's no interest. It finalizes a purchase. It's paid. No further payments are required.

The problem with that debit card is that it's tied to the bank. That's it's upside and downside at the same time.

My bank has put a fraud suspicion block on my card 1 or 2 times a year for the last 10 years. It's a stable system but I don't count on it. Regardless of what the balance is, it still might not work when I need it.

On the upside though, I do like it. Dragging large amounts of cash around is often dangerous. Either by theft by steet criminals, or by theft of law enforcement.

Yes on both. But with the downside ( to me anyway ) of having to pay interest.

But there is also the benefit of challenging suspicious or fraudulent charges. This is a big benefit. It instills it's own form of confidence.

Once you transact in crypto or bullion, it's done. Most of the time that's the point of using these. No further payment required. It's paid for.

I don't pay interest on my credit card. They make their money from making the vendor discount the price. Of course I pay in elevated prices eventually but that's not interest.

From your link...
It may act like gold chemically, maybe even like gold electrically, but it sounds like with a thin coat it couldn't be used anywhere there's abrasion, like switches.

Point taken.

I was issued a rather high limit gold card many years ago and got so far in debt that digging out was very difficult. Since then, credit cards are of very little interest to me.

That was years ago though and now learning their utility hasn't been a priority. Maybe it should be.

Yes. The concern is that some clever country or corporation will develop technology that changes lead to gold, or mines gold out of ocean water, or the like. Increasing the gold supply.

Rumors from Wiki, Reddit and TheMillineumReportDcom describe the technology existing now. They are allegedly not practical because of energy consumed in the process.

No no, dear friend. Just after the crash of the Great Depression, Roosevelt issued an order demanding that all gold be turned in as a way to fund The New Deal. The gold standard was never a guaranteed 1-to-1 ratio on the dollar, it was "a dollar equals what we say it equals," a number which changed regularly, and exchange markets compared to other currencies still applied. The whole point was they knew they were going to need extra money, so they took all the gold, giving the public the old exchange rate in bills, then said, "oh, gosh, you know what? This gold is now worth more US dollars than we said it was before. Good thing we have it all to spend now." The U.S. had all the bullion in vaults after that *precisely because* they took it; prior to that there was plenty of gold floating around and being used for exchange, especially in frontier areas where banking wasn't as reliable.

My dad (a professional gold dealer, now retired) wrote a whole book on it called "Confiscation."

The point is, the government always does what it wants. You can try to be clever and go around them with a different system, but if they decide they don't like it, they have means of mass coercion at their disposal. (Insert standard "nuh-uh cuz I have guns!" argument here, except if they do a good enough PR job--by, for example, making everyone believe that "one wouldn't need gold"--then you're just a single looney in an irrational standoff that will end badly.)

So are you saying that liquidity is unrelated (ie partially) to both money and currency? I suspect you are trying to 'measure' (characterize) money and currency using a standard called liquidity.

You could make an atom or two with fusion in a supercollider, but for mass production you need a supernova.

I would like the envoke the bigV super duper luper politeness protocol before I begin with my reply.

BigV is a very smart guy. He’s a polite guy too, which is difficult for most people, including me, when defending a position or asking questions to clarify a given position. Therefore I am naming this communication protocol after him.

(tm-Vsdlpp)

That sounds funny but maybe adding some humor to these posts debates is beneficial.

Clodfobble is also a nice helpful person though I’ve not met her in real life.

She did the voice work for my terribly produced and nearly forgotten animated video series. And her voice was honestly the best part of the videos.

Friend: Ok, ok…I’ll watch your video, slang.
Friend: Well...It’s not great but who did the voice work?
Slang: Clodfobble!
Friend: Ahh. Who?

So having benefitted from her expertise on that and learning about the process as well, we’re friends or at least friendly. Even though we are polar opposites on core issues.

And so…

So the government took the gold from citizens in the east but did not have effective and efficient methods of taking the gold from the people in the frontier. One couldn’t “push a button” on a keyboard to take their property like today. But then again, didn’t need a keyboard as the dollar was whatever they decided.

Ok.


It’s on my list now. Might an autographed copy be arranged at some point?

For a fee, of course.

I believe that I’ve heard it referenced in some of the videos I listen to. Not the crazy videos, the more conventional ones.


What if what it wants is not what millions of people want? Or a hundred fifty million people? Or if what it wants runs counter to what it agreed to and even penalized citizens for not following?

What if it is controlled by a Communist? A Nazi? Someone not qualified?

What if it has transitioned into a government within a government? Something that is not responsive to the lawful requests and demands of half of the people and the legal system?

Do you believe that we both might have that opinion depending on if there is an R or a D controlling it?

Guns give people the opportunity to have a potential to resist violence. Power through independence.

Many progressives believe that conservative gun owners think that they can fight the US government and win. By framing the argument in those terms they make conservatives seem…crazy.

And in a fair amount of cases, they would be correct.

But there is much more to the second amendment that progressives see, IMO. It’s for every American citizen. You and me.

There was allegedly a sharp increase in gun sales after Trump was elected, to first time gun buyers many who might be considered progressive. I can remember seeing many people at the range who did not fit into the standard template of gun owners. They didn’t know anything about guns or shooting or rules or laws or anything. Looking nervous, being awkward and a bit defiant in their expressions. Especially to MAGA hat wearing folks.

That’s fine. It’s still yours and mine, the second amendment.

But the alleged movement was caused allegedly because they didn’t trust the government to defend them against these MAGA people.That without (ENORMOUS) government they’d be sitting ducks to any crazy ass gun wielding D bag MAGA hat wearing imbicile.

To which I respond “welcome home! That’s how we’ve felt for YEARS against an enormous government, that they could easily suspend protection of conservatives against nearly any criminal type.”

They’ve managed to do that quite effectively in the court system. Until lately anyway.

It’s not just to resist the awesome power of the Feds, it’s to resist the people that the Feds no longer restrain.

Antifa maybe?

I see your point. Gold ( and silver and cash ) are a pain to work with. Can be a big security risk too if not done properly. They offer no yield, outside of the system. But there’s no counter party risk. There’s no one in between you and your money. You don’t need to trust any institution. No paperwork involved. You only need to trust the person holding the goods. And despite the Matrix working against metals, many people still recognize having some is a good idea (reuters).

I do trust the banks for the most part, except when things get really seriously bad. In those cases you’re not in a good position when compared to their interests. Their interests are the bank. Not you.

But your metals are yours, not something that is actually the bank’s but will repay you later should the bank fail. They often pay after all the good deals that could be yours, are gone, if only you had cash or gold outside the banking system to make a deal. Suspensions and limited redemptions are a fact of life in the system. There are a few bullion visa card (click the currency and card tab) exceptions but they can be suspended or limited as well.

And when the good deals on nearly everything show up, a paper check may not be acceptable for payment for the deal. Homes, land, boats. Things that might be purchased with one payment at a fraction of their value in a normal market.

Maybe. It’s certainly happened for conservatives before.

It’s not just me this time around. It’s at the very least tens of millions.

Thank you for the thoughtful comment. And the book suggestion.

I will continue to enjoy many of the cool things that you post but disagree with most of your political views.

Now let's watch what's happening in the CW2. :corn:

Running a bit late here, sorry Sir.

Yes. You're right. Liquidity.

It's important. How much currency do you need for your obligations? How much exposure do you want to the banking system or dollar currency system? Or your institutional investments?

How much money do you want to hold back while the currency is expanding?

Very good point, Mr. TW. One needs a combination of all mentioned.

Which is only questions that says nothing about a relationship between liquidity and money or currency.

How do money relate to liquidity?. What is the relationship between currency and liquidity?

Money often doesn't support liquidity. I'll probably not break off a piece of my house and give it you for payment of the electric bill.

Currency would more likely support liquidity. Currency being money converted to a more payment friendly form.

Credit with my house as collateral might be a good solution. Or a bank account that holds my salary without credit or collateral involved.

Am I getting close?

What are your thoughts?

What would you guess the production might be if you were able to harness the energy of a supernova?

A gold nugget the size of Puerto Rico or the size of Alaska?

Maybe something in between.

That would just make Gold very cheap.

I was having problems understanding your boundaries between currency and money. That makes it a little clearer.

Oh, I thought you were going to give a helpful link or explanation.

You know a lot more about economics than I do.

I was just trying to understand a curious new perspective.

Of course! He'd be so happy to know I have a friend who read it. He thinks about as much of my politics as you do. Which is funny, because you're both assuming I hold a position I don't:

That's what I was saying. You were the one who said, "Before that disconnect [going off the Gold Standard] one wouldn't need gold since a paper dollar was effectively gold." I'm saying the Gold Standard had nothing to do with it. Prior to 1932, people had gold, and they had plenty of guns, too. And the guns didn't do a thing to stop or reverse the government's confiscation policy. They didn't just say "we're going to take it," they actually successfully took it, for over 40 years. No individual will ever take on the government with their guns--not a conservative against a progressive government, not a progressive against a conservative government. It's an unrealistic macho fantasy. I'm not saying you shouldn't have guns because of it--have guns if you want. I'm saying they won't do you any good. Likewise, going outside the financial system is nice, and I'm not saying you shouldn't do it--do it, by all means! People going outside the system is what put food on our table for my entire childhood. What I'm saying is that you only have that option because they allow it. If they decide to shut down your outside-the-system gig, they will win.

Then they'd better get voting. Because it takes a whole lot to get a Civil War going, and when it really comes down to it, the vast majority of that 150 million people (on either side) are not ready to die for what they want. We fight and we posture and we shake our fists at the computer screen, but at the end of the day, that's not what restrains government, nor is going behind the government's back. If they decide they want you, they're going to get you.

They'll not only get you, they'll probably make an example of you which hurts a lot.
I see China's coming down on crypto-currencies hard.

Ok, I was confused about your position by your apparent support of continuing the witch hunt even after a long and thorough process. By a guy that would get a Nobel prize for digging up solid evidence of anything but that hasn’t . Maybe tomorrow.

Plus you seem to support big government. I’m not sure if I ever met a right leaning person that wanted more government.
But I’ll take your word.

You are correct. I have mis-written.

Until ’71 foreign held dollars were redeemable. But not as an American citizen, only as an institutional holder, IIRC.

This is directly out of the book but it’s kindle here so the page numbers are different than the paperback so I can’t site them.

Part II.
Gold as Contraband II.
Public Compliance

“…It can be surmised that the total amount of gold withheld in violation of the law was at least as great as the amount voluntarily surrendered to the government, thus setting the level of compliance between April 1933 and January 1934 at no more than 50%. Whether this represents a governmental success or failure is left for the reader to decide.“

Your position stated above is that the gov’t actually did it, not just spoke of doing it. Despite the public having guns.

Aside from those who smuggled gold to Canada and those that chose to hide their gold, less than 50% of the public complied to Executive Order 6102, as seen in the book “Confiscation – Gold As Contraband 1933-1975 by Mr. F”

But what about compliance AFTER January 1934?

“…There are however two additional factors to consider when estimating compliance rates. First the face value of all the gold coins turned into the treasury between 1934 and 1960 was less than $12 million, or roughly 4% of the total outstanding as of January 1934.

Nearly all of this was reclaimed by discovery and seizure rather than voluntary surrender, so it’s clear that the early rates of noncompliance held steady even after the passage of the Gold Reserve Act.

Second, the Federal Reserve figures only account for the United States legal tender gold coins. There is no way to estimate compliance regarding gold contraband generally classified as bullion, which includes bars, medallions, nuggets, and most importantly, foreign coins.

The United States was a nation of immigrants, and what wealth they had was often brought over in various forms of gold and precious stones. Given this, the level of compliance was almost certainly much lower than 50%. As with other black markets, the market for owning, trading, and smuggling contraband gold was difficult – if not impossible – for the federal government to control.“

Yah-but…what about after 1960?

Criminal Prosecutions

At the same time that the Treasury Department was expanding the list of permissible “gold coins of recognized special value, “ the Department of Justice was continuing to pursue criminal prosecution for the mere possession of small amounts of gold bullion.

This included cases involving gold coins not exempted as collector’s items, such as the Mexican 50 peso restrikes dated 1947. Chilean 100 pesos, and Peruvian 100 soles. One of these cases, heard in the District Court for Southern California in 1962, attracted a level of notoriety that was unwanted by the government, but welcomed by gold advocates.

The defendants in the United States v. James Briddle and Harold Mitchell were accused of holding approximately $700 worth of gold bullion, in violation of President Roosevelt’s Executive Order 6260 of August 28, 1933.

After reviewing the historical and legal basis for Roosevelt’s order, district judge William C. Mathes considered the nature of the national emergency as it existed in 1933, and whether it continued to exist nearly 30 years later. As he wrote in his Memorandum of Decision dated December 27, 1962:

Certainly a “national emergency” of an economic nature existed in 1933 at the time of Executive Order 6260 was promulgated. The withdrawl and hoarding of gold threatened the nation’s entire economy.

It was against this panic that the order was directed. For this reason, the Congress obviously felt that stiff criminal penalties … were justified by the crisis confronting the nation.

…It is a simple matter, of course, to date the commencement of a “national emergency” by it’s declaration. But unless the ending be marked by proclamation also, it is sometimes difficult indeed to determine. Yet always at some point the “national emergency” does end, and the orders which find their authority in the existence of the emergency lost their validity.

Judge Mathes went on to note that this line of reasoning was applied in a 1954 case ( Bauer v. United States), but that the Court of Appeals refused to hear the case due to concerns over jurisdiction.

Judge Mathes declared that his court was the proper jurisdiction, and that indeed a national emergency no longer existed. The defendants’ motion to dismiss the indictment was granted, and the gold involved was returned to it’s owners.”

It seems like this source material contradicts your assertion that they “took it for 40 years.” Gold coins were legalized and hidden holders effectively pardoned in 1954. For non compliance to a law that clearly violated personal property protections, even if the USSC had not heard the case.

Bullion was still basically useless by policy until later, in 1975, but for the most part if you hid your gold bullion, eventually you could redeem it for financial gain, by the public law 93-373.

That officially legalized selling, purchasing and dealing with gold in all forms in the US and abroad. By then bullion was legal and there was a market for it
.
Only ONE person was successfully prosecuted by the confiscation. If you were to have hidden or exported your gold you would most surely not be prosecuted OR have it illegally stolen.

So of the US population of approximately 125,578,563 ( in 1933 ) divided by 2 (approx 50%) equals 62,789,281.5 did not comply in 1933.

It doesn’t appear as if the Man was terribly effective at enforcing the original confiscation. Or the hidden or exported gold thereafter.

I have a distant relative that sorta did. He is from Texas. There was a stand off. Feds decided it wasn’t worth the work, risk to staff and bad press of having a gun battle with a upstanding combat vet.

He left the country comfortably with money already moved. He had a home abroad. Wife and kids came with him.

A home that was not terribly expensive but fun and comfortable and out of jurisdiction.

So for the next 6 or 7 years The Man would contact him threatening him regularly to which he would reply something like “are you going to send the Marines to come get me if I don’t comply?”

Eventually the message that the Man sent was, “ok, you can come back to the US if you just pay this fine.” To which he responded something along the lines of, “Go fuck yourself, I could be here for the next 50 years. It’s kinda nice!”

So eventually he did return without paying any fines or any other invasion hassles. 8 or 10 years though. The issue was completely resolved and both went their merry way for many years without further incident.

They didn’t “gotcha” him. They could have but they were not in the right on this situation. Had they pressed on this they did not have the ability to prevent the facts from getting out. That the problem was completely fabricated from day one.

There’s a lot of that going around these days.

And another distant relative, also from Texas had a similar situation but was far more diplomatic with The Man. He was much more sophisticated that Uncle. He received a communication but was not nearly as abrasive as Uncle.

They went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Each time he was supplying more data for the proof that there wasn’t a problem.
Eventually they froze his account and assets too but they didn’t threaten him with troops or agents.

He is also a guy with means, but also assets out of the system so that in his case, it was troubling that there was a problem in their minds but he had tons of proof to make his case. He just kept right on living his life with more stress, but was not completely helpless like the average guy would be.

Eventually his account and assets were unfrozen too. No fines or the like.

They didn’t “gotcha” him either.

The power of the gov’t is a mighty force to be sure. But what the system wants is for you to be defenseless. Then they just send you a demand note, you shit your pants, write a check and everyone is “happy”. Well, you aren’t but that’s fine. You’re just a surf.

Have a backup plan in place ready to go. Then most likely if things get rough you shouldn’t be completely smashed flat.

It’s fantasy in your world. In my world it’s family history.

Not the most important item, you are correct on that. Testicular fortitude, a brain, having tools available that can’t easily been turned off with a keystoke, planning and training would be good.

It’s really not all that big of a deal. Depending on how you do it, the Man could actually benefit as well. Just a safety precaution. Crazy weather, alien life form attack, crazy government lusting for control and money it’s not legally entitled to.

I’m very happy to know that citizen criminals avoiding the allegedly corrupt system and unlawful control systems were a benefit to you and your family. :)

There’s a remedy to that, the constitution. Yes, it’s an illusion to make people believe that they are free so that they may be harvested by all the systems living off the citizen and government.

Always remember that gold and silver are the only legal money in the US. It’s not vague. Not followed but it’s in there.

People are surely not willing to die ( at this point or to fight to the death or even to exhaustion ) but are they willing to do without modern life’s gizmos? They could survive in a world without them, but would they want to? A modern civil war might be as simple as making people uncomfortable. Inconvenienced.

Everything is fine as long as booze, fat food, cable TV and air conditioning are available. If one breaks any of those systems, then maybe people might get angry enough to do something drastic. Like yell out the window or some other useless resistance.

Anything short of that, it's just too much energy.

And what many are learning now is that even when you vote, you don’t get what you legally should get. What you voted for. You don’t get what is legal. Even if there is legal precedence. Even if it’s a fundamental understanding.

Like Illegal immigration.

Can you somehow see me right now? By any chance? :lol:

Disobedience? I think we covered that above. It's not always "crazy" as people think it is.

With very few exceptions, yes. But only with the help of the mainstream media. Either by complete omission or outright lying about the details of why they want cha.

Some people that I know did actually benefit from that long hidden storage, after 1975, when there were too many people to “get gotten” at that time.

Grampa hid the loot in his house with a note. Grandson eventually found the note and loot and benefitted. In this case grandson benefitted enough to change the trajectory of his family.

He changed the loot into USD to make a deposit on a bank loan on a small apartment house. And then another.

He didn’t fall into the “gotcha”. And it wasn’t as if the system didn’t benefit. Win win?

I met another man who did something similar around 2005. His gold wasn’t holding gold from EO 6102 but financing was difficult or expensive for him for whatever reason.

He bought 50 oz of gold when it was cheap and no one wanted it. I was invited to look at his 50 oz just before they were deposited for a deal that he made for some real estate. He was very excited. I just observed in amazement. Fifty oz in 50 little glasses on a cart. It was great, a rich guy that appreciated gold as much as I do.Without being a bullion dealer.

He told me “I cannot imagine not making a great profit on this deal with the low price of real estate now and the high price of gold”

He was a professional investor not some gun finger spinning jackass™. Did he get the “gotcha”?

Only if the “gotcha” means you’re going to make a great profit.

Just a few words here on the book "Confiscation - Gold as Contraband - 1933 to 1975

It's a great value. $3.49 on Amazon Kindle. $12 in paperback.

Easy to read, not too long and it's new enough to see forward into how gold might play a role in the US in the coming years.

Also what confiscation or extreme monitoring of your personal gold might look like in the near future.

High level legal aspects from years ago too.

If you are interested in physical gold and silver, buy it and read it. You wont get hurt on this deal.

I'll tell him you said so. :)

"Chinese Government Concerned About Fraud"

It's amusing to me that every government is "concerned" about fraud. Government is the source of fraud. They invented fraud. They don't want to lose control of the game that they rigged in their favor. That's every government to some degree.

Maybe we can talk about an signed copy after I cycle back to the US?

Sure, anytime. He's 71, but he's in good health, and I know he keeps a few pre-signed around the house. So take your time. [emoji38]

Gold is great for electronics and makes pretty jewelry but other than that it's not of much use. The reason it's valuable is the faith that it won't decrease and likely increase in value. That's right the value is based on faith and tradition, the same as currency. If there's a food shortage, I'm not parting with mine for gold or currency.

It's difficult to argue against your opinion unless there is some type of crisis. Long or short.

The two reasons that I appreciate gold is that it's concentrated money and if done properly, there's no counter party risk.

Most normal people have a pretty secure financial life, you live here, you do this, this is yours, these people know you and have for many years. There is very little tolerance for uncertainty.

If you don't have those circumstances something very valuable that you can physically carry with you may be reassuring.

Why is gold valuable?


It does decrease as it did in the 90s. When credit is everywhere, things were hot and very few people had any concern with the currency.

When fiat is expanded, it generally increases in value.

Gold was a canary of sorts that a citizen could evaluate the currency. If gold shot up in price there was a problem. The spot price was a "dashboard" idiot light.

There have been methods to suppress the spot price so that even those that watch for the idiot light never see it because it never comes on.

When things crash, historically it's rebooted with gold and silver.

Silver is a different animal as it's used widely in industry. After the event or crisis is over silver tends to increase. Holding silver boosts your investments for the recovery. Industry uses go up again.

If there's a severe food shortage, I'm looking to assist someone with my excess food for someone that is capable of helping with security. Security tends to be difficult while you aren't fed. Hungry people are more likely to do things that are more risky.

You don't have to be some crazy assed para military setup. It can be as simple as holding out extra food, could easily be as cheap as rice, for that neighbor that you talk to a few times a year.

Another set of eyes to pay attention. Someone watching so that you might sleep soundly with all the additional stress. Don't ever let them know what you have but share some food and create an incentive for them for them to help you get through this so that they may also get through this.

This theme works well on very small and very large problems. Short and long.

You may have gold and silver at the start of the problem and that would help you after the problem has been solved. You wouldn't start at zero. Asset protection. But without food you'll give it away or fight battles you cannot possibly win to get it.

Of course, this is all just MY opinion and perspective. Years of comparing notes with military guys and preppers could be completely wrong for the circumstances that may exist today.

This online Kindle from Amazon is so cheap and easy why not try another book? This time on the thread topic.

$2.99! Where have I been? This is great.

Blockchain: Ultimate guide to understanding blockchain, bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, smart contracts and the future of money.
Mark Gates
June 2017

Blockchain - the reason why Bitcoin cannot scale to what is necessary in the economy. A block chain, that provides secure transactions, is incapable of meeting scale and liquidity demands of today's (and tomorrow's) economies.

If your quote above was not true, Bitcoin would have gone much higher, IMO. Amazon would be accepting Bitcoin. Or at the least another cyrpto currency.

Is crypto doomed or can a solution for scale be developed? Or has this problem been overcome but it's without a market since the losses were so large with the crash?

I would like to understand crypto currencies without having to lose money experimenting with them. :lol:

The Economist - Bitcoin Under Pressure (registration required)

"Bitcoin’s mathematically elegant design ensures that the money supply can increase only at a fixed rate that slows over time and then stops altogether. Anonymity, while not assured, is possible with the right precautions and tools. No wonder Bitcoin is so appealing to geeks, libertarians, drug dealers, speculators and gold bugs."

The first and obvious problem with Bitcoin is its block chain. It can only process seven transactions per second. Visa alone processes ten thousand transactions per second. Its structure does not have such limits. That alone makes Bitcoin too limited to become legal tender.

More problems. Money must measure value. A currency that fluctuates wildly does not measure value; cannot be trusted. If Bitcoin is to become money, then 1636 Dutch tulips were also a good currency. 2005 SIVs and CDOs (even backed by sub-prime loans) were also money. Finance people were using those financial instruments to print money - until the inevitable crash happened a few years later.

Bitcoin is rarely used to buy things. Of maybe $2.4 billion transactions, estimates put $0.65 billion just for selling stolen credit cards, drugs, bogus medicines and other illegal transactions. Another $0.87 billion is estimated for gambling. And an unknown majority of that remaining money is believed to be speculation. That is not a healthy currency.

Third, a currency must be able to expand or contract with economy changes. Currencies backed by a central bank, through history, tend to be the most stable. During severe recessions, less currency is required. Bitcoin has no ability to change with economic conditions. So it is more popular as gambling chips rather than money.

And then fraud. For example, Quadrigacx, a Bitcoin exchange, suddenly went bankrupt when its founder (Gerard Cotton) died. Cotton had the only encryption keys. In trying to untangle the bankruptcy, it is now believed that all $165 million in deposits were missing eight months earlier. Bitcoin intentionally makes criminal investigations impossible; makes fraud easy, untraceable, and profitable.

Block chains may have use in other functions. But not as a replacement for legal tender. It was a good try. But, currently, it does not work.

While it seems that it was over hyped by speculators when the price was growing, it does have place in the marketplace, in my opinion. A slower process speed would prevent me from buying a cup of coffee with it but in other uses speed is not the greatest concern, as I’ll attempt to explain below.

This is a great concern to me, yes. A few days ago Bitcoin was trading at about $4000 a coin, now it’s up to nearly $5000 a coin. Although it seems reasonable that I might be more willing to use it when the market price has increased my purchasing power.

On the flipside, a merchant may be less willing to sell their goods or services at a new Bitcoin high, aniticipating that the price would fall.

The opposite might also be true. Merchants may be more willing to sell after a dip in market price of Bitcoin. Adjust their Bitcoin deomonated prices accordingly.

I’ll have to think on that. Were they money or were they assets in which another derivative was created? Cash.

It’s not a healthy currency for day to day transaction. We agree on that.

See below for my additional comments.

The Federal Reserve inflates MUCH more than they deflate. So they inflate by 100, then deflate by 10.

They still end up with most of the free currency that they create and are able to spend or loan it before prices rise. Win win for the Fed.

Sure, the American people benefit, but only as a by product. The American people ( or dollar holders ) can’t type on a keyboard to create another trillion dollars on a whim to pay their electric bill.

It’s a BIG bill. I’m mining Bitcoins.

You and your gambling chips man, you’re killing me. :lol2:

Wow, it sure does seem to. But what about traditional online and banking systems? Let’s take a look.

The following quotations are in regard to cash but are relevant in my point as they show the corruption of the banking system as it is now.

The War Against Cash: The Plot to Empty Your Wallet and Own Your Financial Future – And Why You Must Fight It.-Nov2017 – Ross Clark (Britain)

$3.00 on Kindle. It's good. Buy and read it.

“…Rogoff’s case would be stronger were it not for the astonishing amount of fraud which takes place online, involving electronic money. Where, in the argument that associates cash with crime, fits the shocking statistic that in 2015 British bank customers lost a total of 755 million [$1.3 Billion] pounds in fraud involving payment cards, online banking and (the last making up a very small proportion of the total )cheques.“

“…But these assets weren’t bought with banknotes. No one can walk into a London estate agent and buy a property with bags full of cash; the estate agents are under legal obligation to report anyone who tries to do this. These properties were bought via large cash transfers from overseas banks: electronic money.

Maybe criminals should not have been allowed to open these bank accounts; perhaps someone had not done their due diligence and check the provenance of the money in these account, or possibly there are criminals :litebulb: :yesnod: working inside the banking system who facilitate them. Yet the fact is that they did open them. So long as criminals are able to open bank accounts with impunity, eliminating cash [or Bitcoin] from circulation is going to make minimal difference to the amount of crime.”
…
“…The $200 million of banknotes found at El Chapo’s home is small beer compared with the vast quantities of money which are being laundered through bank accounts. In 2012 HSBC ( Hong Kong -Shanghai Banking Corporation ) was fined $1.9 billion after a US Senate

Investigation concluded that the bank had been a “conduit for drug kingpins and rogue nations”. Among it’s failures were allowing Mexican and Columbian drug cartels to launder $881 million through accounts, and to allow a Russian gang posing as second-hand car dealers to transfer $290 million.

According to the Organized Crime and Corruption Reports Project, 17 UK-based banks between them unwittingly ;) processed $738 million worth of transactions on behalf of Russian criminal gangs. They didn’t need to move banknotes around in bags [or use Bitcoin]: they processed the money electronically through anonymous companies which they then dissolved.

I guess El Chapo was really just the criminal world’s equivalent of your granny: he stuck with cash because that's what he knew. Meanwhile younger rivals have had little trouble mastering the banking system to their advantage.”

So as I’ve said many times to many different audiences, when billions of dollars are accidently discovered in all sorts of criminal and corrupt activities, nobody knows anything.

But when the system can’t reconcile a piece of chewing gum that I bought, it’s a problem they must solve by some additional dumb assed thing I must now do, attest to, sign or report.

Hello Litecoin! And gold. And tulip bulbs.

Some possibilities may be;

• Identity management and digital identities
• Digital voting – seems unlikely now but let’s see
• Healthcare and medical records
• Academic certificates
• Music
• Cloud storage
• Car leasing rentals
• Ride sharing
• Property
• Apartment rentals
• Travel Industry
• Loyalty reward programs
• Prdictions and gambling
• Smart contracts

Not with Bitcoin but the blockchain as you noted in your quote.

Those possible uses above are from the book Blockchain: Ultimate guide to understanding blockchain, bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, smart contracts and the future of money.

$3.00 on Kindle. Buy it. It's good. Certainly worth $3.

It’s a bit outdated now at a year and a third old but still very helpful in describing the technology and issues surrounding it’s use and possible uses.

From page 10.

“Billions of people in the world live in countries where they can’t trust intermediaries such as banks, governments, and legal systems for transactions or accurate record keeping. Blockchains are particularly useful in these cases to help provide trust and assurance to people when transacting with each other.”

It’s not just the book “Blockchains” that also see an opportunity to do something legal and useful with this technology, aside from it's use for buying gambling chips. :)

Kiva.org is hiring - See 1 Kiva.org jobs. Kiva.org Blockchain and Cryptocurrency company. Blockchain Protocol Architect/Director and more...


Now, having a general understanding of cryptos and their potential uses, I’m pondering how rural people here in the Philippines might cut their middle men out completely or in part by using them.

Maybe not “all in” today but it appears to be an opportunity for a grower to deal directly with a seller. The middle men here in the Philippines often get more than either the seller or the grower for products.

Most of their utility is in the delivery and payment between the two parties.

As legal tender, you’re right. But what about other legal useful possibilities? Maybe.

Review the origins of 'plastic'. Diner's Club was created in 1949 when its founder paid for a restaurant meal with a cardboard charge card. That is all it was. A new version of 'letter of credit'.

From that was spawned something different - a credit card. The credit card was not just a 'letter of credit'. It was also a bank loan.

And then something different, called a debit card was created maybe twenty years later.

None of this is replacement for currency. It simply expands and enhances a flexible currency.

Unfortunately for Bitcoin, it has not really done much to enhance 'legal' activity. And its speculation does not address another important concept in productive economics - investment.

Where as a stock, bond, or derivative is a speculation to create new products or provide financial stability, Bitcoin speculation is only gambling. Nothing productive is generated (financed) by Bitcoin speculation.

Whereas Diner's Club was created to address a need - addressed a liquidity problem. Bitcoin has not really enhanced the currency.

Other electronic payments systems (ie Apple Pay, Paypal) do enhance the liquidity of currency. We can expect those the be enhanced / innovate / expand into new forms of economic / financial activity.

Too many foolishly see all government as evil. Some governments are. In productive societies, government is always part of a solution. Federal Reserve bank is a perfect example. Countries with the most stable currencies all over the world have Central Banks.

When the Central Bank is run by people who know, well, we all recently learned the value of a Central Bank. In 2007, we were facing symptoms of a second Great Depression. And this time, the Central Bank addressed the problem. Unlike in 1929 when the Central Bank made the problem worse.

We came that close to what would have been unemployment numbers of maybe 20%. Many today do not realize what was meant by the statement back then, "You have eight hours to save the economy." We know it was that bad. Disaster did not happen because our Central Bank, in coordination with others, properly addressed a major liquidity problem. What other 'currency' could address such problems? Even gold could not address that near disaster.

BTW, another factor essential to a stable economy - open markets.

Yah, that's me. I'm that guy. Am I a fool? Maybe. A guy in Tampa called me a fool months ago. Actually he called me a foo.

Not evil but corrupt. Here are the rules. They are for YOU but not for the government. These rules are for the benefit of society. Except when they make government people rich. Then they're just rules you have to follow while I'm looting the country and smiling on TV. Talking about how much I'm doing for YOU?

But I could do more if only you'd give me more money.

Like Russia.

There we go. That's better.


Does Zimbabwe have a central bank? :confused:

I wrote that. It's a slang quote, not out of a book. Not yet anyway.

When I wright a book, I'll put that quote in it. It's a good quote. That's a good quote for China. Maybe it can be translated for my Chinese version of my book.

There is an ATM in Manila that sells Bitcoin and Litecoin for peso notes. It's the only one in the country so far. It doesn't buy coins, just sells.

500000P limit per day. No ID required either.

Do you think Trump's an asshole for wanting to dismantle the Fed?

Do you think Trump has some Bitcoin? That Putin gave him. With no traces to it? So he can pay for some TitBounce?

I wonder what you might pay for in Bitcoin in Manila. Legal stuff, I mean.

I wonder if you can pay a woman for an NDA in Bitcoin? Would it be enforceable?

How much Viagra could you buy with a whole Bitcoin? Not that I need that stuff, just wondering.

I wonder if you jammed a Bitcoin up a horses ass what the process time would be? Would it get faster or slower than normal? What would the blockchain do differently? Could you buy some gambling chips with it?

Does wifi even work from inside a horse's ass? Now there's a good question. That might be a good place to hide your Bitcoin. You might call it Horasscoin or maybe just asscoin. But what problem would it solve?

Maybe someone is working that out now. I'll look on the exchange for it.

An honest answer will never be discovered when one concludes using wacko extremist concepts of 'good vs evil'. When one does not first learn the so many details that separate the few corrupt from far more numerous responsible parties.

Were Central Banks evil when they created / enhanced the Great Depression in 1929? Of course not. Only fools see everything in 'good vs evil'. The Central Bank (and Hoover) made a major mistake. There was no evil. There was a serious mistake that took ten years to undo. And that we study so as to never make that mistake again.

BTW, same mismanagement (including tax cuts) in / after 2000 created a massive economic calamity in 2007 that took most of the next eight years to resolve / recover from. Was that evil? Of course not. But the mistake we all made was listen to corrupt business school graduates. Since sub-prime loans and derivatives to create free cash (a ponzi scheme) were somehow good because it was unregulated.

The naive, who see everything in 'good vs evil', were same people so easily targeted by my father. So many Americans then knew that smoking cigarettes increased health. Many people are not officer material. So they see everything in soundbytes. They know only because they were told what to think - also called brainwashing.

An informed consumer learns underlying details long before making an extremist conclusion.

We know Bitcoin will not accomplish what you want it to do. Strangely enough, Bitcoin is popular among those whose criminal activities are justified by hate of government, other religions, leaders who constantly lie, etc. Apparently that (and not improving economic activity) is related to your underlying agenda.

First indication of the most corrupt are those who routinely accuse other groups of being evil. That is how Hitler, Milosevic, Kim, and even Nixon came to or maintained power. Government is not evil. It is necessary for a productive society. That does not mean people such as Cheney will not manipulate government for a self serving agenda.

Obviously the existence of a Central Bank cannot prevent a Mugabe or Maduro. Your logic - blame a Central Bank for that corruption. Please don't mock me with that wacko extremist logic. A central bank cannot prevent corrupt leaders. But a Central Bank has been repeatedly proven essential for a stable currency.

Throughout history, currencies that remain most stable are maintained by a Central Bank. We know government must be part of a solution. Which flies in the face of extremists who are told by Hitler, Mussolini, Alex Jones, Sean Hannity, or Rush Limbaugh what to believe. Extremists never bother to learn details or ask why. They only want to be told what to believe. Then just know something must be true because it agrees with their political biases.

I heard same nonsense from so many Bernie Sanders supporters during the Democratic Convention. Details quickly identified them as extremist. Told what to believe rather than first learn how things work.

Again, it is no accident that Bitcoin is popular among the anti-everyone else extremists. Bitcoin cannot even do what credit cards do to advance mankind. It is seriously flawed for so many reasons - many already identified.

Only a wacko extremist sees all government as evil. Fails to learn that the most successful societies existed when government was doing its job.

I’m sorry for being such a wise ass joker in the previous page, TW. You’re a smart guy with a sense of humor many times, but you are invested in your position as much as anyone else.

Your life experiences and education have led you to a completely different philosophical reality than mine.

I can accept and even respect that.

Maybe this post can out “tw” you in length if not clarity of position.

You are the only person that know that is focused on the term “evil".

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Have you ever seen this? It’s the unelected bureaucrats and the management that are working against what the people want. Slow walking. No walking. Bending the rules for their agenda, not the Peoples’.

We actually have learned the so many details But not from CNN and MSNBC.

That is why so many people view the government as corrupt.

Because despite overwhelming evidence there are no prosecutions.

This opinion of corruption in the Federal gov’t was at 38% under Obama too.

And let’s not forget the FBI

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Even fools can be excused for ignorance with some education.

See below.

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Not evil. Mistake, yes. But from day one the Federal Reserve System was designed to take control of the US currency out of the hands of the people. And provide stability, but only as a byproduct.

It was created by the Congress to provide the nation with a safer, more flexible, and more stable monetary and financial system.

Or you could get another opinion without vested interest.

Or get the short version here.

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Yah, yah. High falutin’ MBAs. We completely agree on that. And bean counters. Flog them all.

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Was your father a marketing excutive? A doctor? Regulator?

Not sure how to read that.

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Commissioned officer you probably mean. Non commissioned officers are often made through performance. I take your point though.

Sound bytes cannot give the appropriate detail required. If they could, my replies here on the cellar would be short.

Brainwashing? Like CNN? Or MSNBC?

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Yes, like me. Learning about cryptos before making risky moves and losing my money.

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We do? Normal people all over the US appear to be buying and using crypto. Seems like they’re installing crypto ATMs at a good clip.

I’m guessing they don’t trust the online process but cash for crypto seems safer.

By creating a market for ATMs it’s also supporting business and investment in the US.

One would only need to search the string “Bitcoin is for criminals” to find a mix of analysis and opinion from a wide variety of sources and opinions. Oh, I bet you use Google for search.

Try DuckDuckGo.com

Did you miss this? It’s not my preferred source but seems to be something more to your liking. Except maybe this time because it seems to counter your position on Bitcoin.

Maybe you meant Monero?

It’s not unanimous, it’s a mix. Seems like your opinion has been challenged by many for a few years now.

Strangely enough, with a simple search, you could easily find information dis-proving your opinion.

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My underlying agenda is a more independent population. Less dependency to banks. Companies buying and selling metals to a legal market is also improving economic activity.

Money and currency that is in complete control of the population without counter party risk is appealing to me and many others. Cash, gold, silver, and to a lesser degree, crypto.

Don’t forget the US mint too. They sell Sheets of uncirculated Federal Reserve Notes ( US currency ). They seem to be working against their own interests.

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Are we talking about the concept of projection here?

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Not in the beginning. In time it’s likely though. There are many unelected government bureaucrats that are corrupt. They are in the management of the most important and relied upon of American government agencies. They work together to achieve goals that may or may not be supporting the president’s agenda. The president is elected.

A few specific names are Clapper, Brennan, Comey, McCabe, Strok and Page. How could that chain of command not include Obama?

Time will tell. :corn: