Kool Ade, Brother, quit drinking it and focus on serious questions of policy. You'll find that UT is pretty conservative in the WoT department. You go far to the right of him and you slip out of reality.

Adak, my first rule of business in these kinds of threads is, if you lead with the sarcastic snark, ya got nothing. You need to be able to argue seriously, not just play slap-battle. Anybody can do that, and it's a childish game, not for serious thinkers. Up your game.

Fog of war always applies, and you don't get to reject it based on the facts that came out to everyone well after the event. That is, by definition, how fog of war works: the facts are not immediately and perfectly available to all parties. Conjecture gets elevated to temporary fact since explanations are required.

If you feel differently, you may point me to the post you made on 9/12 saying that since this happened on 9/11 you are suspicious that it wasn't due to the video. In fact I'll be generous and allow you up to 9/14 to have thought of that. You don't have to be certain, just suspicious.

If you feel that all this was possible because the media was carrying water for Obama -- and they often have done so, certainly -- you must ask yourself why they stopped, since the first explanation was eventually rejected and that was quite harmful to the administration at a really bad point in time.

Lastly embassies are attacked all the time (26 attacks on US embassies in history), and in fact the worst such attack happened under Reagan. To make such an enormous amount out of this one is clearly partisan... and thus, causes us unforced errors in the WoT. Which is why I say partisanship politics, on any side, makes one dumber. And this is true of everyone. Up your game.

Fox News
This is the latest question the Republicans are pushing on to the American public.

But regardless of the FOX NEWS spin, Hicks testified yesterday that
he had been told to NOT meet with House investigators,
and yet he did ... [meet with them]...and spoke out about his opinions of the decisions made in D.C.

He is now whining that because he did go ahead and meet with the Congressman,
he has been "effectively demoted to a desk job"

From my experience, this is pretty much SOP for any government employee
that does not follow what his superiors have already ordered him to do or not do.

The rest is partisan (Republican) politics.

I seem to remember a few members of the GW Bush administration ducking a congressional subpoena.

I've been following this story and it looks like a great attack for Republicans in safe congressional districts. It will get the angry retired voter to the polls. When we get to the national election it will bite them in the ass. Hillary actually had a nice run as Sec. of State and a GOP focus on this single event may leave voters with a bad taste in their mouths.

Easy to separate whitewash extremist rhetoric from responsible (adult) reality. If extremist Republicans were making accusations as adults, then they also said who directed the attack. What was the attacker's name? They don't know and they don't care. If responsible, those extremist would say who did this attack - by name. And why we should have known an organized attack was coming.

Tomorrow is the day one of Mohammed's sons died. So we should expect an attack? Yes - according to extremist rhetoric.

They provide no facts. They use hindsight to prove Obama, et al should have known. And emotion to incite the most ignorant citizens. Wacko extremists invent myths and fiction to brainwash and inspire the naive. No facts. No numbers. Not even a name.

Extremist do not care about Americans or dead ambassadors. Screw the country. Political power by brainwashing naive citizens is far more important.

No facts. No numbers. No names. That alone says they purpose is only self serving. Ironically, these are the same people who destroyed American jobs by enriching the rich. Using similar myths based only in hearsay, wild speculation, or fiction. Wacko extremists.

Informed citizens understand another fundamental concept - "fog of war". We still do not even know who organized and directed this attack. Fog of war remains. And yet extremists, without relevant facts, would cast blame.

My bet is that Gates is setting up a wall to defend himself and DOD
from criticism for not having a "better plan for contingencies" in the Middle East,
starting back when he was Sec. of Defense under GWB.

He's no friend to Obama... and except for Petreus... keeping Gates on during first term,
was the first and worst mistake Obama made with respect to the military.

The Not-On-My-Watch rule supersedes all else, and we'll soon know
because certain Republicans have the smell of blood in their nostrils.

Oh noes! Umbrellagate!
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/16/ob...ella-protocol/

:eek:

Wait, wait, wait... McCain and Graham will appear on tv shortly.

So Happy Monkey, now that we know that the CIA briefing to the president included words like "attack" and never included the word "demonstration", (and several other references like it), etc., and this was all changed to make it more palatable for Obama's chances for reelection. Do these facts change your opinion on this matter? Or are the facts now irrelevant, because they no longer fit the ideology you've held dear?

What we know is that the military personnel who had volunteered to go to Benghazi during the attack, were ordered to stand down. Only a few political response team members disregarded their orders, and went.

As one of the military members there said: "I've never seen the day that politicians had more balls than the military".

I don't have all the facts, but it appears that the State Dept. wanted a very limited response to the attack - and the Ambassador called it an ATTACK, not a demonstation. You don't bring explosives and mortars to a demonstration! When the state response team was told to stand down, most did, just a couple went on. They may have been on loan from the CIA, and felt they could defend themselves from later charges of insubordination.

All they could do with that limited amount of personnel, was evacuate the Benghazi compound. They knew the Ambassador was already dead, and were unable to get to his body.

Nothing from outside Libya - like the nearby Aviano Air Base in Italy, could be used, because it required explicit approval from the President, and he wouldn't give it.

Sign of the times:

Aviano Air Base used to have a motto on their webpage:
"Anywhere, Anytime", next to a large picture of an F-15 Eagle fighter.

Now their website has a picture of their swimming pool, etc, and promotes their Drive Safely and Environmental Impact work.

Dear gawd almighty! What's next? Bingo, perhaps a little Karaoke or Poker tournament?

http://www.aviano.af.mil/index.asp

:D :D :D :facepalm:

This is what I've come to expect from Adak.

Here's the link he is so excited about...

Renovated base pool reopens for summer
Posted 5/28/2013 Updated 5/28/2013

Aviano Air Base
by Airman Ryan Conroy
31st Fighter Wing Public Affairs

5/28/2013 - AVIANO AIR BASE, Italy

...you like to pretend you do.

Of course there was an attack; what was unclear, and what could not have been determined by a recon drone, was the identity of the perpetrators, and their motives. Like I said, drones can't read minds.

What Susan Rice said was that they thought there was a protest that got hijacked by extremists with heavy weapons (which were readily available to militia groups of all sorts in the aftermath of the war). She never denied an attack (obviously); she just said that they didn't think at that point that it was a premeditated, coordinated attack.

Rice: But we don’t see at this point signs this was a coordinated plan, premeditated attack. Obviously, we will wait for the results of the investigation and we don’t want to jump to conclusions before then.

FOX News: Obama says there was no attack!

Thats as much bullshit as blaming a fucking movie.
Sheesh.

..

No lamplighter, what I was disturbed by was the whole tone of the web site. Before it was emphasizing military power and readiness - and in fact, they flew many missions into Libya and the Balkans (during the Balkan conflict).

Now, the web site emphasizes environmental projects, base amenities, personnel issues, etc.

Their motto "Anywhere, Anytime", is no longer even displayed.

So far, you haven't convinced me.

There are a lot of mottos at Aviano AF Base, and at other military units.

Attachment 44201

but at least one of them had a sense of humor...

Attachment 44202

By the way, the Benghazi event is no longer of serious concern in Congress.
McCain has dropped it and gone on a secret mission to Syria.

We know it's was secret because he was not on the Sunday talk shows this past weekend.

Is he still agitating for us to arm Al Q?

I don't know, but if Obama is in favor, McCain will be agin it, and v/v.

:rolleyes:

...again?

John McCain denies he knowingly posed with with 'rebel kidnappers' in Syria

No danger in getting better weapons to these guys though, because clearly we know who we're dealing with.

Obama in 2007: “No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime, no more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war…” While Obama publicly expressed outcry at monitoring of citizens protesting Iraq, his administration’s collection of Verizon phone records was broader. Unlike the Bush White House, which sometimes did not use a warrant, the Obama Administration had a warrant from a FISA judge. Obama goes on to mention that FISA court system, which he used to get his warrant for the broad seizing of Verizon records, works.

Al Gore and Rand Paul agree with Past Obama. This a real not a Benghazi.

The telling thing is that the leaks are now going to foreign press.

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is secretly carrying out a domestic surveillance program under which it is collecting business communications records involving Americans under a hotly debated section of the Patriot Act, according to a highly classified court order disclosed on Wednesday night.

EFF put out a time line of the NSA Domestic Spying Program. This is how Presidencies should end. If only the GOP had a leg to stand on in the 4th Amendment department.

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Those silly "liberals" and the ACLU have been warning of this for some time now.
When people are surprised and unhappy, maybe next time they'll pay attention.

Here is Ron Wyden (D- OR) last March...


Here he is speaking on extension of the Patriot Act back in May, 2011
YouTube (23 minutes)... vMAX_Frj8xM

If Democrats keep control of the Senate in 2014,
Wyden will become Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee
I suspect he will have some sway over which laws and budgets get passed.

Muddy Waters

The television network said that a CIA team was working in an annex near the consulate on a project to supply missiles from Libyan armouries to Syrian rebels.

So we're (by we're I mean our out of control executive) trying to arm radical Islamists in Syria but our operation gets trashed by radical Islamists in Lybia?

Wow.

I'd love to know who those "sources" are.

I bet Obama would too.

If the CIA was running an operation out of Benghazi, was the attack on the embassy aimed at them? Why would Islamist militants attack the CIA for supplying their brethren in another country trying to overthrow their dictator?

The CNN story is thin as well. Obama's record says whistle-blowers keep your heads down.

We knew at the time this was not an embassy, or a consulate, but a CIA operations house. Hitchens went there to try to clear the place out, because it had no (relative)defenses, and he had good rapport with the locals.

What was the CIA was doing there? (heel-click)CIA stuff, Sir. (salute)

Well yea, it's the middle east the MOST factious place in the world.

Well Joe, I guess you have to keep a sense of humor about some things. :right:

I suppose so, it's true though. Radical Islamists in one country and Radical Islamists in another country don't just equate to the same faction. They are broken into factions, groups, organizations, loose ties, no ties, families some only marginally related, some not related at all. In Syria alone there are hundreds of different groups and factions.

So yea, arm a group of Islamists in Syria and Islamists who don't give a crap about what we are doing in Syria might attack us in Lybia.

It's not rocket surgery to see this picture, it IS rocket surgery to try and figure out the link analysis.

Extremists will immediately *know* facts by entertaining their emotions. Or by being told by extremist talk show hosts how to think. Moderates first learn facts. Facts from Benghazi confirm what moderates were saying. The legacy of Cheney, Mission Accomplished, and what happens when a government uses its extremist rhetoric rather then facts to attack another nation also inspired this attack and a resulting contempt for America. Problems made worse because American extremists also violated fundamental military concepts even defined 2000 years before Columbus.
Al Qaeda was not in Iraq - as a minority noted during Mission Accomplished. Unfortunately, too many still see Al Qaeda hiding under our beds rather than comprehending realities in that region. These same concepts, denied by American extremists, are relevant even in Syria. Reality is far too complex for soundbyte rhetoric inspired American extremists such as Limbaugh and the Tea Party. The NY Times article entitled "A Deadly Mix in Benghazi" on 28 Dec 2013 demonstrates why reality requires long posts. Soundbytes from extremist rhetoric have clearly distorted and misrepresented what happened in a Benghazi attack that killed ambassador Stephens. Soundbyte propaganda did not even mention Khattala - instead accused a mythical Al Qaeda. Because such rhetoric works on those most easily manipulated by propaganda. Extremists need bogeymen to blame - Al Qaeda today as Hitler blamed the Jews 80 years ago and McCarthy blamed communists in the State Department and Hollywood. As was true in Iraq ten years ago, Al Qaeda was a myth promoted by extremists such as Cheney. That myth lives on even in myths that discuss Syria. Many still deny the legacy and resulting hate created by lies and Mission Accomplished.

Put the t and w over each other. That is Arabic for Abu.

Hey hey, Abu Abu, let's find some pic-i-nic baskets.

The ridiculously partisan article which was written to help Hillary distance herself from her largest hurdle for the presidency. Her utter lack of leadership and her part in chosing to let them die. Where was Obama that night anyway? The NYT article, so uselessly quoted by the bloviating one, was resoundingly refuted by D's and R's alike on the intel committee. The strawman in his argument is also pathetic.
Moderate .... bwahahahahahahahaaaaaaa..... thanks for the laugh.

Amazing how honest facts that contradict wacko extremist rhetoric are relabeled "partisan". Reality was not the first thing extremists were told; so it must be wrong.

Extremists even fear a mythical Al Qaeda. Because Benghazi also exposes an Al Qaeda myth, then it must be wrong. Al Qaeda remains another myth that survives only due to wacko extremism.

Same wacko extremism says torture (Nazi Gestapo style) is good. That was also the first thing extremists were told. So it must be true.

^and the typical divert/distract ploy... so predictable... so pathetic..

Classic, if you had only included something about General Motors,
you would have gotten points for Adak#1, Adak#2 ... AND Adak#3.

Please do not, even jokingly, associate me with his nonsense.

Then post something based in facts and that actually contributes something useful.

I always post factually. Unfortunately for you, of course.

Funny what shows up on a hide the news day
 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ecc3a...ghazi-theories

WASHINGTON (AP) — A two-year investigation by the Republican-controlled House Intelligence Committee has found that the CIA and the military acted properly in responding to the 2012 attack on a U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, and asserted no wrongdoing by Obama administration appointees.

Debunking a series of persistent allegations hinting at dark conspiracies, the investigation of the politically charged incident determined that there was no intelligence failure, no delay in sending a CIA rescue team, no missed opportunity for a military rescue, and no evidence the CIA was covertly shipping arms from Libya to Syria.

Obviously the House Intelligence Committee, and the AP, are part of the conspiracy. :rolleyes:

A happy ending to the investigation just in time for the holidays. That's what we like to see from our representatives, thanks Congress! :rolleyes:

BeenGhazied

Attachment 49658

Ha! Nice one Lamp.

The conclusion was obvious long ago to anyone not brainwashed by extremist talk show hosts.

One who knows only what they were told to believe saw a conspiracy. Intelligent moderates collected facts before knowing anything. Therefore got it right.

At this point, one would think everyone learned from Mission Accomplished. Even lying talk show host still refuse to apologize for a massacre they advocated of 5000 American servicemen. In fact, wacko extremist Paul Bremer said (last week) we should again invade Iraq. Wackos love thirty and fifty years wars. Since that gets extremists to support and enrich them. Or in the case of Limbaugh, pay for his oxycotin addiction.

Illegal, apparently not. But anyone who doesn't realize they intentionally tried to mislead with that bogus video crap is an idiot - yeh you.

The repubicans love to waste tax payer money

http://www.gop.gov/solution_content/benghazi/

And I suppose you think they wasted money on those 50+ times they TRIED to repeal ACA.
Or maybe with the money being spent trying to impeach the President.

They did and they are. :-)

John Boehner will be appointing Trey Gowdy (R, SC) to head the investigation into Benghazi.

Because:
FFS.

Also:

Lindsay Graham still hasn't found what he's looking for.

What's happening with respect to Benghazi, at this point, is a smear campaign to impugn Hilary Clinton's name in advance of her possible presidential campaign. They just want to use it as a club to keep people distracted and uncertain and worried. What a load of fucking bullshit.

There is a affliction among some South Carolinian children that manifests
as a speech defect wherein there is a transposition of "n's" and "z's".
Usually the children out-grow it, and their use of language becomes normal.
But it can carry over in some adults as a juvenile behavioral manifestation.

We have seen it on TV, as shown here...



.

There is such a double standard with a lot of these posts. I guess you "I told you so" people on Benghazi were the same people who said this should have been over a long time ago. Yet, I guess, you all also think the "Senate" report on torture is somehow still relevant many years later. What a hatchet job! Let's face it there are idiots i.e. political opportunists on both sides. The Dems got their clocks cleaned in the last election and they will resort to anything to switch the attention back to Bush/Cheyney. Enjoy the next two years! You deserve it!

We've had numerous reports about the "Benghazi incident" (tm). None of them turned up anything like the hoped-for scandal heavily promoted by Fox News and their ilk. Lots of looking, lots of investigation, and no evidence of wrongdoing.

The " "Senate" " (really? that needs ironic quotes? we're talking about the same Senate, right?) report on torture reveals new information, in stark contrast to the expected standard of behavior by the CIA. I don't see the double standard you're talking about.


Political opportunists on both sides? all sides. Hell yeah. But that should still not make a non-event worth worrying about (Benghazi) or excuse torture (CIA), regardless of the political motivations of the messenger.

How can anyone play the equivalency game with these two events? Oh yeah, Fox News. Nothing happened in Benghazi beyond a fuck up. American lowering its ethical standards to the level of say ISIS or North Vietnam, that is a goddamn news story.

I guess the families' of the 4 USxKIA take comfort in knowing it was only a "fuck up".