Original post for comparison.Perhaps you read into that OP something that I didn't. I wouldn't define it as crass nor demeaning. But hey, thats just my opinion.

Sure it is. A less common shortening of Ibrahim, and more often a last name, but definitely a male name of Hebrew/Arabic origin. Type it into Google and it suggests at least three famous people with the first name: prolific black rights professor Ibram Rogers, painter Ibram Lassaw, and a well-known fictional character, Ibram Gaunt from Warhammer. It's never been in the top 1000 names in America, but then again, neither has Hyacinth.

I worked with a pharmacist called Ibrahim in Leicester.
He was called Ibram by people who knew him well.

In fact it was tricky as he was Ibrahim Mohammed*, so to the Muslim community his first name and last name were interchangeable (like Elton John). If someone called and asked to speak to Ibram, at least I knew it was a call he wanted to have put through. When they called to speak to Mohammed I guessed they'd only seen his name on a letterhead.

* I do not feel bad giving his full name as it is similar to John Smith.

I'm too sexy for my username
Too sexy for my username
But that's just me not you
Boohoo.

Vote number 2 in favor of Henry Quirk as "Troll of 2012". Still a long way to go on the year, he may out do himself, or another semi dweller may up the ante before Xmas. I reserve the right to vote again later in the year.

Yeah, him asking that question (as classic pointed out that's what it was) qualifies him as more troll than merc has been this year. :lol2:

Oh I love the logic around here. Good groupthink.

Wtf. Group think?

Damnit. I wasn't going to post in here again, but that got me. Why are the people taking issue with this thread engaged in 'group think' and what, those who argue the opposite are all independent thinkers?

It's always the same. Every time there's an argument or disagreement, you accuse anybody on the other side of that argument from you of engaging in 'group think' or of being 'sheep' or generally being unable or unwilling to think for themselves.

Three or four people on each side of the argument, but one side are just following the group, but the other side all independently arrive in the same place.

ffs.

So you don't agree with my assertion that merc has done much more damage to people this year than henry has? That's just fucking ludicrous and blind.

Who needs it. I suck in every way. Hqve fun in the land of fucking perfect, and I am glad that I could coach you from your moratorium on this thread.

Ffs indeed.

I didn't say i disagree with that. I just dislike the 'group think' accusation thatgets thrown out every. single. time.

You seriously are accusing Regular Joe of acting on 'group think' ?

Every time.

I'm not trying to be a bitch with you Inf. It just really galls me that's all. that particular thing. because here we are with various ones of us lecturing each other about courtesy and tolerance, but sweeping away everything the other side has to say as 'group think' is deeply insulting and discourteous imo.

Even to talk about 'sides' is probably disengenuous of me really. \because individual people come to the threads and form their opinions based on their views and what they read and then in their post they position themselves somewhere within the argument.

It's such a totally disregarding thing to say. reminds me of the times I used toget into arguments with J and he'd say 'oh, you've been talking to your Mother again'. Like I coudnt just have come to that opinion myself right?

It's the same thing. But it's every time the argument divides into two rough camps. You always accuse those on the opposing side of the argument of group think.

Welcome to Judge Sexobon's courtroom.

Today it's the case of:

Monkey see, monkey do, do ,do what you done, done, done before, baby.

Ah man. I ahould have taken my own advice and stayed out of here.

't'aint worth falling out over, inf:p

I was just going to say I should stay out of this thread too.

I'm sorry regular joe.

I am too close to this in a couple ways.

But I would like to say to sexo that yyouve done that to me before, and maybe you should consider that some of us have vulnerabilities no one hears about. You make me feel like shit when you make snotty comments. Maybe you don't mean it that way.

But my life has been falling apart, I've been falling apart, and for everyone's information henry has been a rock, a friend who really cares. About me, as me, in all my fucked up glory.

There's an awful olot we don't know about each other.

[Khan]Superior women. I will take them.[/Khan]

Gee, I thought I'd sorted this whole mess out last night!

Frankly, I don't care if anyone here likes me. Ima be me.

That is humor, you may recognize that.

I vote Henry Quirk simply as "Coward" cuz it refused to answer my very logically valid questions.

John, you must hate shit like Bell's Theorem.

"what exactly is the cost to you?"
 

If Ibram pretends to be a woman, there is no cost to me.

If I -- knowing Ibram is male -- pretend he's a 'she' then I lie (to myself) and in the lie, I diminish myself, to myself.

That Ibram lies to himself is irrelevant to me: that I lie to myself to make Ibram feel good is a high price I won't pay.

"why not simply do as a person asks instead of making it an issue?"
 

If I demand to be called 'Lord God Quirk', will you comply?

I'm no more a 'lord' or a 'god' than Ibram is a woman, but his demand is complied with, so, why not mine?

Because to do so makes you a liar and a bit of an idiot.

So, if you lie and engage in idiocy calling me 'Lord God Quirk', then, maybe, you lie and engage in idiocy calling a 'he' a 'she'.

But: do as you like...I certainly will.


And: If Ibram is secure in his self-definition, then it shouldn't matter if some jackass refuses to call him 'her'.

That he is so offended by my lack of compliance says a lot about his insecurity, and, if he 'is' so insecure perhaps he should have kept the self redefining under wraps till he could stride forth in nylons and not give a damn what any one has to say.

*shrug*

"Language is culture, not reality"
 

Agreed. But, to be of any use: language should accurately describe external reality.

Calling a boy 'girl' (just 'cause the boy insists) is not an accurate description of external reality.

Ibram may be accurately describing the contents of his head with 'she', but his subjective assessment doesn't trump the reality that 'he' (nothing more than a descriptor for *maleness) is not 'she' (nothing more than a descriptor for *femaleness).









*both, fundamentally, matters of DNA and therefore independent of Ibram’s self-definition.

"...henry has been a rock, a friend who really cares..."
 

;)

Of course, if transsexualism has a biological component, then it is not independent of the DNA.

"if transsexualism has a biological component, then it is not independent of the DNA"

Sure. I await the evidence. If there is -- biologically -- a 'third sex', I'll happily adopt whatever pronouns are needed. Unfortunately, for Ibram, those pronouns won't be related to 'she' any more than 'he'.

#

"I'm sure you're not suggesting that all our life choices are only defensible if they are biologically bound."

I'm not suggesting that any one has to defend anything.

Again: that Ibram chooses to define himself as 'girl' is of no concern to me.

I haven't demanded he justify himself (his choices) to me or any one.

I simply point out that he is 'he' and I won't be calling him 'she'.

Other folks lay atop my assertion all manner of presumed agenda.

They're wrong but what the hey. Each should continue to assess me as each cares to.

I no more care about being called, for example, troll, than I care how Ibram self-defines.

You agree, then that it is possible there is a biological component, and that TSs should be treated differently by you if there is.


~ voila, the middle ground, people! was that so difficult? ~


What if it's not DNA -- what if some condition is set up in the mother's womb which sets up the fetus to have feminine tendencies of some sort? Tendencies that make the emerging personality question its gender and identify with a different gender?

Not quite proof positive, but pretty close!

I'm sorry. That user name is in use.

UT, as I said 'I await the evidence'...till then: 'he'.

"what if some condition is set up in the mother's womb which sets up the fetus to have feminine tendencies of some sort?"

See below.

#

Brian, I note in the title, 'Gender-Related Disorders'.

I note in the piece:


It has been hypothesized that prenatal DES exposure may also have led to behavioral effects in humans (Meyer-Bahlburg and Erhardt, 1986; Meyer-Bahlburg, et al., 1995). Primary studies exploring possible behavioral and psychiatric effects of prenatal DES exposure in males first appeared in the literature during the 1970s. DES exposure has been associated with increased potential for major depressive disorders and other psychiatric effects in males (Katz, et al., 1987; Meyer-Bahlburg et al., 1985; Pillard et al., 1993; Saunders, 1988; Vessey et al., 1983). Recent discussions of potential psychiatric effects of prenatal DES exposure, including gender-related effects and schizophrenia, have been presented by Verdoux (2000; 2004) and Boog (2004). Verdoux summarizes the research on DES in the psychiatric literature this way:

Sparse findings suggest that exposure to xenoestrogens such as diethylstilbestrol may be a risk factor for psychiatric disorders, mediated by a possible deleterious impact of the substances on foetal neurodevelopment, but this hypothesis is speculative owing to the small number of studies and their methodological limitations (Verdoux, 2004).

...and...

•Among the most significant findings from this study is the high prevalence of individuals with confirmed or strongly suspected prenatal DES exposure who self-identify as male-to-female transsexual or transgender, and individuals who have reported experiencing difficulties with gender dysphoria.
In this study, more than 150 individuals with confirmed or suspected prenatal DES exposure reported moderate to severe feelings of gender dysphoria across the lifespan. For most, these feelings had apparently been present since early childhood. The prevalence of a significant number of self-identified male-to-female transsexuals and transgendered individuals as well as some individuals who identify as intersex, androgynous, gay or bisexual males has inspired fresh investigation of historic theories about a possible biological/endocrine basis for psychosexual development in humans, including sexual orientation, core gender identity, and sexual identity (Benjamin, 1973; Cohen-Kettenis and Gooren, 1999; Diamond, 1965, 1996; Michel et al, 2001; Swaab, 2004).


Let's assume for the moment Ibram is one of the individuals affected in the womb by xenoestrogens. To my thinking this simply means Ibram is a boy with a disorder, not a member of a 'third sex'.

Nice try though... ;)

For a 'third sex' to have the same the weight as 'male' and female' it must be natural, not the result of disorder or exposure to chemicals (natural or artificial introduced abnormally to the womb).

And, before anyone reacts badly: no, I in no way suggest the disordered boy should be 'fixed'. Again: I don't care how he live or self-defines...I simply choose not participate in that self-definition.

Nah...I think it's just simple courtesy.

If HQ wants to be called Lord God Quirk, it is absolutely no skin off my back to call him this.

If Ibram wants to be called Erica or she, it harms me not a bit to comply.

In both cases, doing as requested is courteous and polite. I've hurt no one by going along with the program. I'm intelligent enough to know that HQ is not MY Lord God, although maybe he's someone elses? I am aware that Ibram has the biological organs of a male, but if this is not what she feels defines her gender, who am I to argue?

I think it's terribly arrogant to assume that the only "definitions" that matter are the ones we personally know and use.

"Nah...I think it's just simple courtesy.'

I disagree, but, as you like.



#

"I think it's terribly arrogant to assume that the only "definitions" that matter are the ones we personally know and use."

And I believe it arrogant to twist descriptors into meaning 'nothing'.

*shrug*

But, as you like.

So you said. Inherent in that statement is that you don't know whether evidence was been or will be brought.

Psychology has forever labeled certain traits "disorder", only to learn later that they were only considered disorder because of the cultural norms of the day.

Such was homosexuality, which was considered to be due to uncorrected personality traits* up to about three decades ago.

And gays, as a result, were (and are) treated so incredibly poorly. Well, we didn't know.







*by Robyn Hitchcock

Can I call you Betty?

I wanted to comment but don't really feel like bringing my own uncorrected personality traits into the discussion so I'll just say that I *heart* Robyn Hitchcock and leave.

As you like...

If you'll be my bodyguard. I can be your long lost pal. I can call you Betty And Betty when you call me. You can call me Al.

lol Bullshit.

Your archaic views on gender identification are showing...still.

:facepalm: Well, if that's how you see it, then that's yer deal, but IMO, you're seriously messed up in the head.

Again, :facepalm:

UT: your point?

#

Lord God Quirk: nice name... ;)

#

Ali, John: not worth responding to.

And: because this thread has drifted from the topic...
 

If he has a penis, is genetically male, then -- despite *self-definition -- he is 'he'.

Yes?

No?

Opinions?

Here's something I've been thinking of lately.

So let's say I announce to my african-american cow orkers that I 'feel' black and therefore I would like to be considered black. I want to fill out forms and check 'african-american.' I've never felt white (probably 'cause I'm such a good dancer) and I don't want to BE white. I want to be more susceptible to sickle cell anemia. I want to be counted in the 'black vote' and I want them all to acknowledge that YES, I am black.

They'd laugh me right out of the office. What the fuck do you know about being black? You were raised in a white household and you went to an almost all white school out in the boondocks. You went to a predominately white church. We love that you want to be black but YOU ARE NOT.

So I argue that I perceive myself as black, and if they don't start addressing me as "sistah" I'm going to get very angry. How dare they tell me I'm not black, just because they've actually experienced what it is to be black in this society?

"sistah"
 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Exactly!

{{head explodes}}

Ding ding ding!!! We has a winna!

*shakes head*

Yeah. 'cause it's just like that.

Y'know, sometimes, just sometimes, the Cellar really depresses me.

Callous, disregarding, cold. Cruel for cruelty's sake. This thread is a bully's thread and you're all fucking revelling in it.

Count me out. This has really got under my skin. I thought this was a better place and I thought I had nicer friends.

Explain how it's different?
Explain how it's cold? It's a valid fucking point. It's refutable, if you'd like.

Maybe you should be out because I know I'LL never be what you think I should be.

Cold? Callous? Fucking get off your goddam highest motherfucking horse on earth and quit fucking judging me.

Right. Fuck you right in the eyeball.

Really Dana? Why & How is it different?
I struggle (A LOT) to put some of my thoughts into words on the screen.
I think IM did that very clearly.

I'm still freaking out here.

How in the world was making that comparison wrong and why am I cold and callous?

I've alluded to it before: but you are at times the cruelest person here.

Ok, though I'll explain: there is a good deal of medical evidence to suggest that gender is less simple that we have previously considered. Quite aside from those people who are born physically male but 'feel' female. There are all sorts of variations on the theme. Differences in hormonal makeup for instance. Sexuality and sexual orientation are extroardinarily complex pyschologically. It is a fundamental part of every person's identity, it is a fundamental part of everybody's psychological and physical development.

The colour of one's skin is pretty much set from birth. The only psycholotgical impact of skin colour is where it places you in the world. Skin colour does not bring with it an ever shifting, ever developing hormonal stew. Skin colour and 'race' do not show any differences in brain structure or function.

Differences in gender and in psychosexual development are also, in many (maybe even most) cases refletced in differences within the brain structure or function, or within the hormonal make up.


Why that angered me and got under my skin?



You were using Reductio ad absurdum to argue that a born male who self-identifies as female has no right to expect the world or any people in it to respect that.

Nice work Infi. Colour me impressed. What's your next trick?

Yes, maybe I am cruel. In this thread right now, I am being cruel. To someone I really like and care for. because in my absolute honest opinion you are being an out and out bitch. And that grates...because I know you arent one.

"This thread is a bully's thread and you're all fucking revelling in it."
 

What I 'revel' in is the inability of supposedly bright folks to defend a position (to call a he 'she') beyond appealing to 'courtesy' and shifting cultural norms.

The question is simple: is Ibram a boy or a girl?

Objectively: he is 'he'.

I think I've nailed that on the head.

I think IM nailed that on the head.

You have no refutation so you stomp your feet and storm off.

Good riddance.

"there is a good deal of medical evidence to suggest that gender is less simple..."
 

Cite some, great defender.

Bullshit. A person could have a lineage other than their obvious one.

You're a fucking bitch, and that's all there is to it. Reductio ad bitchem.

Go to hell.

*shrugs*

Fair enough.

"a born male who self-identifies as female has no right to expect the world or any people in it to respect that"

What such a person can expect is to be left to his own self-definition.

It is absurd for such a person to expect any one else to participate in what is a falsehood (that he is 'she').

Lie to yourself as you like, Dana...lie to Ibram as you like, Dana...I won't, and no amount of name-calling or appeals to the nastiness of the world will move me.

And just so you dont get the wrong impression that this is all about you:

I'm pretty pissed off with a few people in this thread. Not least classicman who appears to be doing a bang up impression of a cheerleader every time you post something sharp.

And she runs away...*stomp*stomp*stomp*...
 

...again: good riddance.

So many who express an outrage (as though being outraged is enough, as if being outraged means something), but when called out (evidence please!) run far and fast.

Be ashamed.

You know, I really thought it was a point to ponder. Written in my typical hand of wit, but a point indeed. If you didn't agree, you could have said so and said why.

But no, you go off on me and make me feel small and stupid for thinking of it. You throw in your little Lifetime Scholar Debate words. You imply a lot of people should have their pitchforks in their hand in response to ME, and there is something WRONG with them if they don't.

This is why you are cruel. I've not been cruel to Ibram. I've said I don't understand. I've tried to think of how maybe I could feel something similar. I've tried to discuss (with the exception of the ever unpleasant Drax) but you don't like that so you aim to hurt.

Yes, Dana, you. You aimed to hurt.

I can understand your disappointment in some people in the Cellar. Will you ever see that in your unending crusade to right all that is wrong you HURT people who are really only trying to get along, understand, and goddammit maybe even laugh about it sometimes.

The most obvious sign of a person who has no class is that they are regularly pointing out why others are 'lesser'.

Wasn't running. Just finding it all really distasteful. Not as an abstract topic. If that's all this was I owuldnt be upset. But because this was specifically targeted at an individual.

It's cruel, and fucking low rent.

I approach gender from a histrorical perspective, so although I have done some reading around transgender issues (as part of my work with the Adult Health and Social care Scruitiny panel during my time as a councillor) most of what I have readily to hand is to do with eighteenth-century gender constructions.

However, a quick google nets quite a bit of stuff. Starting with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7689007.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7689007.stm

I honestly thought you were using an absurd example to make your point. My apologies.


But I do think you've been cruel to Ibs. Maybe unintentionally. I do think this thread is cruel to its core though. because as I said above, it isn't an abstract matter, it is real and it is someone's life. Someone here.


Given your particular connection with issues around mental health: how would you feel if in order to discuss whether or not depression is over diagnosed someone started a thread to discuss it and used you as an example of someone who'd been misdiagnosed and was on the party pills unecessarily?