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-   -   Fast and Furious (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=25379)

ZenGum 07-23-2011 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGum (Post 746033)
Yeah, all those AK-47s really helped in Libya, didn't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 746140)
I don't think the US sent them.
It was a reply to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 746024)
The most effective physical defense against any genocide imaginable is the reverse of this: a selective-fire individual weapon over every mantle and two hundred rounds ready ammunition. Whereupon we'd all be Switzerland. Which is notably free of that genocide thing.
When the government has artillery, tanks, an air force and an army with modern discipline and command structures, the civilians get massacred no matter how many selective fire individual weapons they may have.

Rifles in homes do not make genocide impossible.

Fair&Balanced 07-23-2011 09:23 PM
:corn:

Mercenary and Guerrilla extreme theater of racism and genocide.

TheMercenary 07-24-2011 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 746166)
:corn:

Mercenary and Guerrilla extreme theater of racism and genocide.
Only people who defend Holder, the DOJ, and ATF support genocide and racism...

classicman 07-26-2011 01:15 PM
Gunwalker scandal called "perfect storm of idiocy"
Quote:
DEA Accidentally Finds Guns from ATF "Gunwalker" Case (Credit: CBS)
In advance of a hearing later today, the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform released a report containing new testimony and allegations in the ATF gunwalker case. According to the report, Carlos Canino, Acting ATF Attache in Mexico, calls the strategy his agency employed: "The perfect storm of idiocy."

"We armed the [Sinaloa] cartel," Canino told investigators. "It is disgusting." Canino will be a key witness at the hearing.

But it's not just the Sinaloa cartel. Documents obtained by Congressional investigators show weapons - sold under ATF's watch in Operation Fast and Furious out of the Phoenix office - have been used by at least three Mexican drug cartels: Sinaloa, El Teo and La Familia.

In other words, Congressional investigators say the very agency charged with preventing weapons from falling into the hands of violent cartels south of the border ... instead facilitated it.

The Oversight Committee has used internal documents and information to showing where Fast and Furious weapons have shown up and been used in Mexico. It reveals more recoveries than Department of Justice has disclosed to the Committee in official answers ... and yet it's still only a partial picture.

The Department of Justice had no comment on that aspect of the report.

The first large recovery of weapons sold to suspected drug cartel traffickers under ATF's watch was on Nov. 20, 2009 in Naco, Sonora, Mexico. All 42 weapons (41 AK-47s and a giant .50 caliber rifle) traced back to Fast and Furious suspects. Some had been bought, turned around and delivered to the cartel practically overnight.

Yet ATF allowed the acquisitions and dealings to continue for more than a year, until December of last year, when Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered. Two Fast and Furious assault rifles were recovered at the murder scene.

On a recent visit to Mexico, the Oversight Committee was allowed to view bullet holes in one of two Mexican government helicopters recently shot at by cartel members ... including a .50-caliber round that penetrated the bulletproof-glass windshield. Officials recovered Fast and Furious weapons among the suspects' cache.

Also, for the first time, Congressional investigators disclose names of some Justice Department officials whom witnesses, ATF agents, say knew about the controversial gunwalking operation.
Quote:
Nobody at the Justice Department has publicly acknowledged approval of or a role in the case. President Obama has said neither he nor Attorney General Eric Holder authorized the operation, and Holder asked the Inspector General to investigate.

But according to ATF witnesses, on March 5, 2010 ATF intelligence analysts told ATF and Justice Department leadership (including Main Justice Trial Attorney Joe Cooley) that straw firearms purchases in Fast and Furious had exceeded 1,000 and the weapons were ending up in Mexico. When concerns were raised, one witness present quoted Cooley as saying the movement of so many guns to Mexico was "an acceptable practice." The Justice Department had no comment on that.

In other testimony, former ATF Attache to Mexico Darren Gil repeated information he gave in an exclusive CBS News interview several months ago. He told investigators that the Justice Department's Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, Lanny Breuer, was well aware of Fast and Furious, and referred to the case supportively when visiting Mexico.
link

TheMercenary 07-27-2011 09:58 AM
This thing is still exploding.

Guns from U.S. sting found at Mexican crime scenes

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76P33T20110726

classicman 07-27-2011 11:11 AM
<crickets chirping>

Griff 07-27-2011 12:09 PM
If anyone but teh murk brought it up we'd probably discuss it but folks other than f'n b are reluctant to crawl down in the sewer with him.

ZenGum 07-29-2011 10:32 PM
Just gotta say, though, that when a law enforcement agency names its operations after cheesy crime-action movies, the first warning light should have come on already.

TheMercenary 08-04-2011 07:27 PM
Wow! so Griff and fucked and balanced are in bed together?...... who'd a thunk it?

Griff 08-05-2011 05:56 AM
Ha ha! Not likely, I find his position almost as annoying as you do, but I'm not interested in engaging in his version of "civil debate".

Urbane Guerrilla 08-06-2011 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenGum (Post 746155)
When the government has artillery, tanks, an air force and an army with modern discipline and command structures, the civilians get massacred no matter how many selective fire individual weapons they may have.

Rifles in homes do not make genocide impossible.
Zen, the history of genocide does NOT show that. Essentially, the reason is you don't use armored divisions for the actual genocide -- armies feel unendurably compromised if used for genocides, and this is always sloughed off on militias, organizations created especially for the genocide itself, or other outside-the-military groups. Let a single example represent the rest: the Einsatzkommandos -- and by the term the Nazis meant something like "special auxiliary teams" -- were very lightly equipped. With gun control laws and legal delegitimization of armed self-defense, rifles were about as much as they needed. Well, a rifle opposes another rifle just fine, does it not? How would the fate of European Jewry have been different had every Jew in Europe a Kar 98 (a mere bolt-action rifle) and two hundred rounds of ready ammunition? I'm not sure a single Einsatzkommando would have survived the war!

While you might try citing the Warsaw Ghetto as an exception to the idea you don't use armored divisions to perform genocides, it fails on close examination: the Jews of Warsaw successfully repelled the lightly-armed Einsatzkommandos, starting with hardly any rifles whatsoever -- you could count their first rifles on the fingers of one hand -- and these had to be reinforced by the SS, with some mechanized fighting gear but nothing to speak of for tanks, Gestapo detachments organized as infantry, and the Romanian Iron Guard -- and the Gestapo ended up complaining about the behavior of the Iron Guard. It's not everybody that can gross out the Gestapo.

And you aren't very well versed in guerrilla warfare either -- a truism in unconventional warfare is that a lesser weapon may be used to obtain a greater, and then a greater again.

I've actually tried to study this stuff. Learning is why I say what I do. What I've learned is that armed societies are inoculated against genocides, and that this is true worldwide. I regret to inform you that what you thought you knew, you don't know.

Urbane Guerrilla 08-06-2011 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 746166)
:corn:

Mercenary and Guerrilla extreme theater of racism and genocide.
Genocide is a very great horror, and it isn't even necessarily related to race -- one of genocide's three constants is hatred, however rationalized. It has to be there to motivate the action.

In that it is a very great horror, any measure that forestalls it should not merely be contemplated favorably, but embraced with enthusiasm -- and the less-than-enthusiastic be viewed with intense suspicion. "Enthusiasm" does not necessarily have to translate into personal gun ownership, but it's a good thing if it does: it puts your money where your mouth is.

TheMercenary 08-06-2011 04:03 PM
Quote:
A few weeks ago we brought you a story from Sharyl Attkisson who was reporting on a scandal inside the ATF concerning the agency allowing guns to walk across the border. Soon the worst fears of many ATF agents were realized when Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was murdered by a Mexican drug gang member using one of the guns the ATF let walk. It turns out that the ATF was not the only agency that knew about this “gun walking” policy. The DEA, ICE, Homeland Security, and an Assistant United States Attorney all had knowledge that ATF superiors were instructing agents on the ground to allow guns to flow into Mexico in the hopes they would be able to catch larger targets. Rene Jaquez, an ATF special agent, spoke out about what he sees as some of the darkest days in the history of the ATF.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/laura...50262422521395

ZenGum 08-06-2011 06:52 PM
UG, I draw your attention to the present - not historical - reality in Libya.

TheMercenary 08-10-2011 11:04 PM
ATF's gun surveillance program showed early signs of failure

Quote:
Reporting from Washington— In March 2010, the No. 2 man at the ATF was deeply worried. His agents had lost track of hundreds of firearms. Some of the guns, supposed to have been tracked to Mexican drug cartels, were lost right after they cleared the gun stores.

Five months into the surveillance effort — dubbed Operation Fast and Furious — no indictments had been announced and no charges were immediately expected. Worse, the weapons had turned up at crime scenes in Mexico and the ATF official was worried that someone in the United States could be hurt next.

Acting Deputy Director William Hoover called an emergency meeting and said he wanted an "exit strategy" to shut down the program. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for decades had dedicated itself to stopping illegal gun-trafficking of any kind. Now it was allowing illegal gun purchases on the Southwest border and letting weapons "walk" unchecked into Mexico.

But those at the meeting, which included a Justice Department official, did not want to stop the illegal gun sales until they had something to show for their efforts. Hoover suggested a "30-day, 60-day or 90-day" exit plan that would shut Fast and Furious down for good — just as soon as there were some indictments.

But indictments did not come for another 10 months. By then, two semiautomatics had been recovered after a U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed south of Tucson, and nearly 200 had been found at crime scenes in Mexico.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7349292.story

TheMercenary 08-10-2011 11:09 PM
Quote:
By now, “Gunwalker” and “Fast and Furious” have both entered the national lexicon. And although the amount of information known about the operations varies from person to person, the majority of Americans know they have something to do with the selling of guns to “straw purchasers” in the U.S., who were supposed to smuggle the guns into Mexico and put them in the hands of cartel members, who were then to be arrested.

What most people seem not to know is who exactly was behind the Gunwalker and Fast and Furious operations. Was it the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives)? Yes. Was it also Attorney General Eric Holder? Well, there’s no doubt he was instrumental in Gunwalker, and it’s now known that his chief of staff was briefed on Fast and Furious. So how about President Obama? What did he know? According to information that has surfaced during ongoing investigations by Rep. Darrell Issa (R.-Calif.) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R.-Iowa), it’s certain that knowledge of Fast and Furious went all the way to the White House.

And let me say at the outset that no matter how much you do or don’t know about Fast and Furious, the one thing we must all accept is that it provides a picture of a federal agency, the ATF, gone rogue, and of government at its worst and most dangerous. For regardless of what this operation was implemented to be when it began under the auspices of Gunwalker in 2009, it is now the reckless operation that flooded the streets of Mexico and Phoenix, Ariz., with upwards of 2,500 weapons (34 of which were .50 sniper rifles with an effective lethal range of approximately 2,000 meters).

This is quite telling:

classicman 08-10-2011 11:42 PM
Uh oh...

Griff 08-11-2011 05:36 AM
Merc "forgot" his link.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45398

classicman 08-11-2011 10:45 AM
Why is this not on the nightly news? It is happening now and has been going on for awhile.

classicman 08-11-2011 11:09 AM
Newell and his buddies should be dropped over the border with paintball guns and left to fend for themselves.
That way they can do some real investigating.

Urbane Guerrilla 08-13-2011 12:41 AM
Zen, whatever point you desired to make has not been made, not in the slightest, to those more knowledgeable than you about firearms and societies.

There's no shame in being guided by one better versed than yourself, you know. You have already exhibited the profoundest degree of ignorance about arms on a couple of occasions when you weighed in.

TheMercenary 08-14-2011 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff (Post 749593)
Thank you. One of my fav sites.

TheMercenary 09-02-2011 10:21 AM
Quote:
Also late Thursday, Sen. Charles Grassley's office revealed that 21 more Fast and Furious guns have been found at violent crime scenes in Mexico. That is up from 11 the agency admitted just last month.
“The Justice Department has been less than forthcoming since day one, so the revisions here are hardly surprising, and the numbers will likely rise until the more than 1,000 guns that were allowed to fall into the hands of bad guys are recovered -- most likely years down the road," Grassley said in a statement released Thursday.
"What we’re still waiting for are the answers to the other questions the Attorney General failed to answer per our agreement. The cooperation of the Attorney General and his staff is needed if we’re ever going to get to the bottom of this disastrous policy and help the ATF and the department move forward.”
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Grassley, R-Iowa, said they are expanding their investigation into the scandal on Thursday. In a strongly worded letter to Anne Scheel, the new U.S. attorney for Arizona, the chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee requested interviews, emails, memos and even hand-written notes from members of the U.S. attorney's office that played key roles in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) program.
Issa and Grassley said they want to speak with Assistant U.S. Attorneys Emory Hurley and Michael Morrissey, along with Patrick Cunningham, chief of the office’s Criminal Division.
Not only do congressional investigators want to "make sense" of details of the operation that allowed more than 2,000 guns to "walk" and later turn up at crime scenes on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border, but they want to known why Hurley -- who knew almost immediately the guns found at Terry's crime scene belonged to Fast and Furious -- tried to "prevent the connection from being disclosed."
In an internal email the day after the murder, Hurley, and then-U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, decided not to disclose the connection, saying " ... this way we do not divulge our current case (Fast and Furious) or the Border Patrol shooting case."
“The level of involvement of the United States Attorney’s Office … in the genesis and implementation of this case is striking,” wrote Issa and Grassley.
The two claim witnesses have told them that recently reassigned Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley may have also prevented ATF agents from doing their jobs.
“Many ATF agents working on Operation Fast and Furious were under the impression that even some of the most basic law enforcement techniques typically used to interdict weapons required the explicit approval of your office, specifically that from Hurley,” the letter states.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1WoDGwv9o

TheMercenary 09-02-2011 11:36 AM
White House received emails about Fast and Furious gun-trafficking operation

Quote:
Reporting from Washington— Newly obtained emails show that the White House was better informed about a failed gun-tracking operation on the border with Mexico than was previously known.

Three White House national security officials were given some details about the operation, dubbed Fast and Furious. The operation allowed firearms to be illegally purchased, with the goal of tracking them to Mexican drug cartels. But the effort went out of control after agents lost track of many of the weapons.

The supervisor of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation in Phoenix specifically mentioned Fast and Furious in at least one email to a White House national security official, and two other White House colleagues were briefed on reports from the supervisor, according to White House emails and a senior administration official.

But the senior administration official said the emails, obtained Thursday by The Times, did not prove that anyone in the White House was aware of the covert "investigative tactics" of the operation.
What? Really? They really think anyone is going to believe that? :lol:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...tory?track=rss

classicman 09-21-2011 03:39 PM
ATF 'Fast and Furious' secret audio:
Murder of Border Patrol agent 'collateral damage'
Quote:
EXCERPT 3

Dealer: The most damning thing that you guys got to be aware of I think hypothetically is was there, you have to ask yourselves this first I'm just throwin this out there, was there a communication that hypothetically the US Attorney's office uh was entertained with the DOJ in reference to any ballistics tests or anything? Is there any way any of these idiots..

Agent: The problem is I mean we're not investigating that case.

Dealer: I know the FBI is.

Agent: And he's (Dodson) assigned to the FBI. I, I have not, I don't have any way of knowing what he has access to. And that's on the FBI. I mean that's on them. If they consider him, don't consider him an operational security issue, that's their f-----g fault. But I don't have access to that sh--, I don't know I have no idea what the FBI.

Dealer: (unintell.) I know you don't...I'm saying that's a whole parallel issue.

Agent: Right.

EXCERPT 4

Dealer: What about the emails copies he's got?

Agent: Those emails are a year ago that's why I wonder what he I mean

Dealer: Let me help you out. Here's what I smell. There's a reason you ran (unintell.) about not talking about any of your other agents out there.

Agent: Yeah.

Dealer: You got some rats in there honey...

(Crosstalk)

Dealer: I'll tell you some of these motherf-----s, I don't know if they're giving it to Dodson, I think they are, somebody's got some inter-agency copies not just this sh--.
Link to audio tape is available at this CBS link
Amazing how this just keeps on going. Heads should be rolling and other should be in prison.

TheMercenary 09-21-2011 07:57 PM
Imagine that.... hey Reflux where are you?

TheMercenary 10-04-2011 08:05 AM
Emails show top Justice Department officials knew of ATF gun program

Quote:
Emails show top Justice Department officials knew of ATF gun program
Memos from 2010 show some in senior positions were aware of tactics used in a surveillance operation in which firearms were allowed into Mexico in a failed effort to catch drug cartel leaders.
Quote:
The term "gun walking" is central to the failure of Fast and Furious. Agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them. But they lost track of more than 2,000 weapons, and the Mexican government says some of them have turned up at about 170 crime scenes there. Two were recovered at the scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent's slaying in Arizona in December.

Justice Department officials have said repeatedly that they knew nothing of Fast and Furious tactics until ATF whistle-blowers went public this year with allegations that guns were being illegally purchased with the ATF's knowledge.

Justice Department officials, who asked not to be identified because of the ongoing investigations into Fast and Furious, said that although senior department officials knew that guns were "walked" in the Wide Receiver investigation, they were unaware that ATF agents were using similar tactics in Fast and Furious.

Jason Weinstein, deputy attorney general in the criminal division, brought up both cases in an October 2010 email, apparently concerned that they were going to overlap.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,6104103.story

TheMercenary 10-04-2011 08:10 AM
ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010

Quote:
WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html

classicman 10-04-2011 10:56 PM
:eek: SHOCK!

TheMercenary 10-05-2011 09:12 PM
I have said all along that Holder, the racist MoFo, has been in on it from the beginning. Now once we make a connection to the White House the deal will be sealed.

classicman 10-14-2011 10:42 PM
Quote:
On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing,
"I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."
Quote:
Yet internal Justice Department documents show that
at least ten months before that hearing, Holder began receiving frequent memos discussing Fast and Furious.

ZenGum 10-15-2011 08:28 PM
Hey, I said "heard", not "read".

I did not have sex with that memo.

classicman 10-16-2011 12:32 PM
Quote:
Republican Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the Oversight & Government Reform Committee, suggested Sunday that Attorney General Eric Holder has been withholding facts regarding the so-called "Fast & Furious" gunwalking scandal, and indicated that law enforcement could be concealing possibly illuminating evidence.

Issa appeared skeptical that Holder had known as little about the "Fast & Furious" operation as he indicated in a May 3 Judiciary Committee hearing, when he said, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast & Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Issa disputed that timing, and said Holder "clearly knew more than he said when he said he only first heard of this program a few weeks before.
Quote:
Documents obtained by CBS News earlier this month indicate, too, that Holder had been briefed on "Fast & Furious" as far back as July 2010.

Issa said he believes there may have been another gun found at the scene of Terry's death - a weapon he dubbed "weapon number one" - and that if that gun exists and is proven to be the murder weapon, it would conclusively tie "Fast and Furious" to the murder.

"If weapon number one [which] appears to be missing were ballistically matched, we would have an absolute rather than the inconsistency," he said.
How convenient that the gun is missing.


link

TheMercenary 10-19-2011 02:56 PM
Holder needs to be held accountable for those deaths. Someone should file a big civil lawsuit and sue him when this is all over.

BigV 10-20-2011 01:48 PM
mercy you're a big sorry hypocrite.

in this thread, you go berserk about the government's actions that resulted in the death of some americans, but in the case where the other americans were killled by the actions of our government, you cheer.

dude, I totally get it when you say one wasn't the same as the other, fine. but you can't say that you invoke the LAW in one case (here) but ignore the LAW in the other case (there).

That just shows your hypocrisy, not even your nuance, or your judgment. You only demonstrate that you want what you want when you want it, and you're really flexible on when you're willing to invoke the rules. Like a child.

TheMercenary 10-20-2011 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV (Post 765634)
mercy you're a big sorry hypocrite.

in this thread, you go berserk about the government's actions that resulted in the death of some americans, but in the case where the other americans were killled by the actions of our government, you cheer.
No hipocracy here. One a law enforcement officer killed in the line of duty by weapons that were allowed to "walk" by Holder and his ilk. The other traitors who I have no problem executing, I would have pulled the trigger myself.

Quote:
dude, I totally get it when you say one wasn't the same as the other, fine. but you can't say that you invoke the LAW in one case (here) but ignore the LAW in the other case (there).
The terrs gave up their "Rights" when they went to the other side IMHO.

Quote:
That just shows your hypocrisy, not even your nuance, or your judgment. You only demonstrate that you want what you want when you want it, and you're really flexible on when you're willing to invoke the rules. Like a child.
:lol: You really think big about yourself.

Pete Zicato 10-20-2011 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 765687)
The terrs gave up their "Rights" when they went to the other side IMHO.
This comment is about as dumb as they come. This statement is totally antithetical to the goals and purpose of the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 765687)
:lol: You really think big about yourself.
Cause he's a big man in many ways. You could take a lesson.

TheMercenary 10-20-2011 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Zicato (Post 765691)
This comment is about as dumb as they come. This statement is totally antithetical to the goals and purpose of the US.
Well actually no. If you go to the other side you become a legitimate target.


Quote:
Cause he's a big man in many ways. You could take a lesson.
:lol:

Clodfobble 10-20-2011 08:53 PM
This interview on the Colbert Report last night was both relevant and interesting.

TheMercenary 10-20-2011 09:02 PM
Interesting. And this has little to do with Fast and Furious and the crimes by Holder and the Obama Administration... right?

Hey the Dos Equis guy is always cool though...

Regardless I would love to read his book. I have known a few interrogators over the years. Smart folks.

Great interview! just don't share it with people who think we should not kill our enemies, regardless of where they were born.

TheMercenary 10-20-2011 09:26 PM
The truth revealed, the onion is peeled back, and here we have the original intent of Fast and Furious by the Obama Administration.

Quote:
n an astonishing admission, Attorney General Eric Holder told Congress that a lack of gun control was to blame for the government selling guns to Mexican drug cartels.

Holder sent a letter to Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Sen. Charles Grassley, ranking member of the Committee on the Judiciary, regarding recent revelations he was briefed on Operation Fast and Furious much earlier than he told Congress.

Operation Fast and Furious was a plan by government officials to permit illegal aliens to purchase and take weapons across the border. Once the guns crossed the border, agents often lost track of them. The guns have since been found to have been used in several crimes in the U.S., resulting in at least one death, border patrol agent Brian Terry.

In May, Holder appeared before Congress. At that time he was asked specifically when he first heard about Fast and Furious. Holder responded, “I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks.”

Recently released documents reveal that Holder received memos referring to the program in July, 2010. A July 5 memo said, “Operation Fast and Furious” involved a “firearms trafficking ring.”

Holder downplayed his Congressional testimony and claimed he misunderstood the question.

After being challenged by Issa for his answer, Holder fired off a letter to Congress claiming that he had never read the memos, and it was the responsibility of his staff to brief him on what they considered important.

Holder then went on to say that the reason the ATF was unable to prevent the weapons from being sold to the cartels was a lack of gun control and registration.
http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=11513

This fool Holder needs to be in prison with Bubba.......

Clodfobble 10-21-2011 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary
Interesting. And this has little to do with Fast and Furious and the crimes by Holder and the Obama Administration... right?
Yeah, nothing to do with Fast and Furious. Just the recent mini-thread-drift about killing American nationals who have declared themselves to be terrorists.

TheMercenary 10-21-2011 05:56 PM
Where is the outrage?

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/20/wh...t-and-furious/

Lamplighter 10-21-2011 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 765982)
I think it started back in June sometime.

BigV 10-21-2011 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 765982)
You're hogging it.

TheMercenary 10-26-2011 08:49 PM
:lol: Um no, Holder is choking on it. Hopefully to his end.

TheMercenary 11-05-2011 04:30 AM
Quote:
After weeks of stonewalling by the Department of Justice, a clearer picture of what its top officials knew about BATFE’s Operation Fast and Furious, and when they knew it, is slowly beginning to emerge.

On Tuesday, Lanny Breuer, Assistant Attorney General for the Department of Justice’s Criminal Division, testified before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Terrorism about his knowledge of BATFE’s gunwalking operations, and his support for gun control.

In April 2010, Breuer says, he knew that BATFE agents had allowed hundreds of guns to be illegally purchased and smuggled to Mexican drug cartels in 2006 and 2007 as part of Wide Receiver, a Tucson-based operation similar to Fast and Furious, which was hatched out of Phoenix. Nevertheless, nearly a year later, when BATFE was accused of allowing guns to walk in Fast and Furious, Breuer suggested that he was convinced to not consider the allegations seriously. “I recall that both the leadership of ATF and the leadership of the United States Attorney's Offices in Arizona . . . were adamant about the fact that [gunwalking] was not, in fact, a condoned practice,” Breuer said. And as noted last week by the New York Times, last February the Justice Department sent a letter to Congress stating “A.T.F. makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transport into Mexico.”

Seeming to corroborate the 2007 date Breuer mentioned, the Associated Press reported today that a briefing paper prepared in 2007 for then-Attorney General Michael Mukasey “outlined failed attempts by federal agents to track illicitly purchased guns across the border into Mexico.” But why Breuer did not give more attention to the gunwalking claims made against Fast and Furious is as unclear to him as to the rest of the country. “I regret that in April of 2010 that I did not draw the connection between Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious,” Breuer said. “Moreover, I regret that even earlier this year, I didn't draw that connection.”

When it became Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s turn to question Breuer, the zealous anti-gun crusader from California tried to shift the focus of the hearings from battling international crime to battling those of us who support the Second Amendment.

The exchange between the two gun control supporters speaks for itself.

Feinstein: Mr. Breuer, in June of this year, I received a letter from the ATF. . . stating that 29,284 firearms [were] recovered in Mexico in '09 and 2010, and submitted to the ATF Tracing Center. With those weapons, 20,504, or 70 percent, were United States sourced. . . . Is it fair to say that 70 percent of the firearms showing up in Mexico are from the United States?

Breuer: Thank you, Senator, for the question, and for your leadership on this issue. . . . Of the 94,000 weapons that have been recovered in Mexico, 64,000 of those are traced to the United States. We have to do something to prevent criminals from getting those guns, Senator. . . .

Feinstein: . . . .“[W]e have very lax laws when it comes to guns. . . . And so the question comes, do you believe that if there were some form of registration when you purchase these firearms that that would make a difference?

Breuer: I do, Senator. . . . Today, Senator, we are not even permitted to have ATF receive reports about multiple sales of long guns, of any kind of semiautomatic weapon or the like. . . . Very few hunters in the United States or sports people and law-abiding people really need to have semiautomatic weapons or long guns. . . .”

Senator Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), who has been co-leading Congress’ investigation of Fast and Furious with Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), disagreed with Feinstein’s and Breuer’s claim that 70 percent of guns seized in Mexico come from the United States. “I released a report that I would like to ask be made a part of the record,” Senator Grassley said. “It refutes the numbers referenced early that 70 percent of the guns in Mexico came from the U.S. The answer isn't to clamp down on law abiding citizens or gun dealers.”

While Mr. Breuer’s testimony shined a glimmer of light on who knew what and when they knew it, about the BATFE’s most disastrous operation since the 1993 Waco raid, it obviously did not, nor was it intended to, lead Congress or the American people to a proper understanding of how many firearms have been smuggled to Mexico without BATFE’s help, since the Mexican drug cartels began waging war on their country. As has already been reported, many of the “guns traced to the U.S.” from Mexico were seized in that country many years ago, but have been only recently submitted for tracing at the urging of the BATFE. And to complicate things further, Mexican officials have acquiesced to BATFE’s urgings by submitting multiple trace requests on single guns.
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=7165

classicman 11-05-2011 11:51 AM
Am I missing something? That piece sheds no new information whatsoever.

TheMercenary 11-12-2011 10:20 AM
Quote:
Meanwhile, former U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke in Arizona, who resigned in the wake of a congressional probe into Fast and Furious, has admitted leaking a sensitive memo about a federal agent who blew the whistle on the operation.

Mr. Grassley, Iowa Republican, said in a statement late Tuesday the leaked memo was “deemed so sensitive by the Justice Department” it was not provided to Congress, except in a secured room at Justice headquarters.

The leak targeted ATF Agent John Dodson, who told a House committee in June that ATF superiors told him to stand down and watch as weapons flowed from gun dealers in Arizona to drug cartels in Mexico as part of the Fast and Furious operation.

Mr. Grassley said the Justice Department has confirmed that its inspector general continues to investigate the leak, “which means there are others who may be involved in drafting and distributing” the leak to the press.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...g-fast-and-fu/

TheMercenary 11-24-2011 03:20 PM
And the beat goes on.... as more info comes to light.

Armed illegals stalked Border Patrol

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...border-patrol/

TheMercenary 12-01-2011 05:14 AM
Transparency!!!!! NO OBAMA in 2012!

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...us_610783.html

classicman 12-01-2011 12:38 PM
Merc, Please paste at least some of what you are quoting.


Quote:
William Lajeunesse of Fox News has a big report today that suggests Holder’s Justice Department might not have taken congressional injunctions against Fast and Furious whistleblower retaliation to heart.

In fairness to Holder, it’s been a contention of his for the past several weeks that he doesn’t really pay much attention to internal memos, intelligence briefings, and stern warnings from angry members of Congress, so he might have missed it when Senator Charles Grassley (R-IA) said “any attempt to retaliate against whistleblowers for their testimony today would be unfair, unwise, and unlawful.”

Six months later, Lajeunesse took stock of the situation, and found “those in charge of the botched operation have been reassigned or promoted, their pensions intact. But many of those who blew the whistle face isolation, retaliation and transfer.” Here’s the scorecard for the Fast and Furious management team:

Acting ATF Chief Ken Melson, who oversaw the operation, is now an adviser in the Office of Legal Affairs. He remains in ATF's Washington, D.C., headquarters.

Acting Deputy Director Billy Hoover, who knew his agency was walking guns and demanded an "exit strategy" just five months into the program, is now the special agent in charge of the D.C. office. He, too, did not have to relocate.

Deputy Director for Field Operations William McMahon received detailed briefings about the illegal operation and later admitted he shares "responsibility for mistakes that were made.” Yet, he also stays in D.C., ironically as the No. 2 man at the ATF's Office of Internal Affairs.

Special Agent in Charge of Phoenix Bill Newell, the man most responsible for directly overseeing Fast and Furious, was promoted to the Office of Management in Washington.

Phoenix Deputy Chief George Gillette was also promoted to Washington as ATF's liaison to the U.S. Marshal's Service.

Group Supervisor David Voth managed Fast and Furious on a day-to-day basis and repeatedly stopped field agents from interdicting weapons headed to the border, according to congressional testimony. ATF boosted Voth to chief of the ATF Tobacco Division, where he now supervises more employees in Washington than he ever did in Phoenix.

Meanwhile, key whistleblower ATF agent John Dodson was shuffled off to an FBI task force, and can’t even get into the ATF building with his access pass anymore. The brass said that contact with him “was detrimental to any ATF career.” U.S. attorney Dennis Burke admitted leaking documents to discredit Dodson.

Other agents found themselves demoted, reassigned, and generally floating in career dead zones. The pattern is consistent enough to be disturbing, and several of the agents involved have been disturbed enough to call for investigations. They’ll probably get about as far as the family of murdered U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, which spent Thanksgiving digesting the knowledge that the Obama Administration had sealed the court records in his case. Even the judge’s reason for sealing the case was sealed. Some very provocative details leaked out before all the envelopes were glued shut, but we should probably say no more about it, because the Attorney General told us not to.

TheMercenary 12-02-2011 06:51 AM
Quote:
And to think that Attorney General Eric Holder is getting testy about congressional calls for his resignation. After all, the Justice Department has nothing to hide, right?:

The Obama Administration has abruptly sealed court records containing alarming details of how Mexican drug smugglers murdered a U.S. Border patrol agent with a gun connected to a failed federal experiment that allowed firearms to be smuggled into Mexico.

This means information will now be kept from the public as well as the media. Could this be a cover-up on the part of the “most transparent” administration in history? After all, the rifle used to kill the federal agent (Brian Terry) last December in Arizona’s Peck Canyon was part of the now infamous Operation Fast and Furious. Conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the disastrous scheme allowed guns to be smuggled into Mexico so they could eventually be traced to drug cartels.

Link via Judicial Watch. The murder of a U.S. Border Patrol agent is related to the Justice Department willingly turning over thousands of guns to Mexican criminal gangs, and Obama administration is hiding information about his death from the public. Amazing.

TheMercenary 12-08-2011 08:39 AM
Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Quote:
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

PICTURES: ATF "Gunwalking" scandal timeline
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...n-regulations/

classicman 12-08-2011 09:02 PM
Finally: Holder debunks the “Bush lied” meme
 
Well, that wasn’t really Eric Holder’s intent when he answered an allegation of intentionally misleading Congress from James Sensenbrenner, but the circumstances fit almost perfectly in this moment gleaned from the Boss Emeritus’ live blog of his testimony today. Holder’s aides didn’t lie or mislead Congress when they sent over false information — including Holder himself. You see, they talked with the people who they thought knew what was going on, and simply passed along what they said.

You know — just like when George Bush listened to every Western intelligence agency when they warned that Saddam Hussein was working on weapons of mass destruction.

Now, there are a couple of key differences between the two instances. Fast & Furious didn’t take place around the world in a nearly-impenetrable Arab dictatorship — it got conducted by ATF personnel that report in the same chain of command as Holder himself. The data that Congress demanded wasn’t an assessment of intel on a program run in the Middle East, but the actual information on a program run by Holder’s team. And the inability to produce accurate data on this would indicate that either Holder and his team are a group of incompetents who don’t have any real management control over the ATF and DoJ, or that people intentionally misled Congress by feeding the House committees with false and misleading information.

Considering that the latest memo has ATF and DoJ officials plotting how to use Operation Fast and Furious as a political tool to push for more restrictive gun-control legislation, I’m pretty sure I know which way I’m betting on the question. If Holder wants to argue mens rea, then I’m just as satisfied by the alternative of total incompetence — and await his resignation.
Link

BigV 12-09-2011 10:20 AM
Quote:
Considering that the latest memo has ATF and DoJ officials plotting how to use Operation Fast and Furious as a political tool to push for more restrictive gun-control legislation,
you forgot your tinfoil hat smiley. you know, the one that keeps your head safely protected from facts and shit.

classicman 12-09-2011 11:32 AM
V, Have you paid ANY attention to this issue or watched any of the coverage on it or are you just defaulting to your standard position?

Cuz you really should.

TheMercenary 12-09-2011 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV (Post 779031)
you forgot your tinfoil hat smiley. you know, the one that keeps your head safely protected from facts and shit.
Facts are in the Emails released to the Congressional panel and shit. Obviously you never looked.

BigV 12-09-2011 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman (Post 779061)
V, Have you paid ANY attention to this issue or watched any of the coverage on it or are you just defaulting to your standard position?

Cuz you really should.
First of all, I think you should have indicated that you were quoting another source for your recent post, when at first blush it looks like you're making statements of your own.

Second, at whatever level of attention I've been giving this issue, I am asking for "the memo that details the plotting of the ATF and DoJ officials". Really? Get me up to speed here, since you, and others, notably mercy, have been following this closely. I find it... frankly unbelievable that such a memo exists, or that any memo that does exist says what you said it says.

I won't begrudge you your opinion, and that's what I consider the statement I quoted to be. Fine, your opinion. But I'm interested in more factual evidence. If you have that, and I don't, share it, won't you?

Thanks!

classicman 12-09-2011 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV (Post 779105)
I think you should have indicated that you were quoting another source for your recent post, when at first blush it looks like you're making statements of your own.
Yet the link at the bottom was there ... I missed the quote button which was accidental... Mod can fix please?
Quote:
Second, at whatever level of attention I've been giving this issue, I am asking for ...(snip)
But I'm interested in more factual evidence. If you have that, and I don't, share it, won't you?
No, I will not do your homework for you. If you are truly interested and you should be, you will bring yourself up to speed.
There is plenty of info available. WATCH the video's they're on CSPAN or youtube.

I would prefer you see what is happening for yourself and draw your own conclusions, then post them here.
Then come back and we can have a more intelligent discussion.


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