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Who said anything about anger or punishment??? Not me. Who said anything about "smacking" a child? Who said anything about not being friends with your children? Where are you getting all this?
As an adult, do you want your friends to tap-dance around uncomfortable truths? Why wouldn't you respect a child with the same honesty and forthrightness that you expect? |
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Honestly not meaning to be legalistic when I point out that you've posted two clearly different things.
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As an adult, if you've ƒucked up, sympathy is not going to be constructive--it is going to be DEstructive to your progress as an individual. If you think your "friends" are people who would coddle you and make every effort to make you "feel good" about the situation rather than being concerned with the lesson you need to take away, then I guess you might miss that this would be doubly destructive to a child who is forming the values and principles that will need to last them a lifetime. From this, where you get "anger, punishment, and smacking" I haven't the foggiest notion.
Being friends with someone means respecting what will be best for their well-being. As to your ORIGINAL QUESTION regarding being the parent of the little shithead bully, if you think he needs "sympathy" then you are speaking from some kind of bizarro world that I can't even conceptualize. |
I think your definition of sympathy and mine may be slightly different. I'm not talking about cuddling and making them 'feel good' about the situation. Lessons can come in many forms and sympathy for the hurt need not negate the lesson, it can at times be the best route into talking through why something has happened.
Actually, much of this is because of your earlier post, which I have just reread. I am not sure if you edited it, or if I just misread it the first time, but what it says is that you would not let sympathy show on your face. That's somewhat different to not feeling sympathy, which is what I thought you'd said. From the dictionary: Quote:
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Also, really, if i have fucked up, the person I go to for sympathy and honesty is my best friend J. Not so he can say 'there there it's all better', but so he can grimace in recognition of where I am at and drink a beer with me. He'll tell me I brought it on myself, but he'll say that in a sympathetic way. In much the same way I do with him when he's fucked up. He doesn't need to underline the lesson for me. I don't need to underline the lesson for him. |
Oh, and as to the smacking issue: sorry, I realise you never said anything about hitting your kids. I was responding more generally to what's been said in the thread by other posters. Was a bit of tangent i know, but seemed relevant in terms of varying styles of getting a lesson across is all.
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*grins*
There isnt much in life that can't be improved by adding hot monkey sex. |
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It occurs to me as I watch and listen to and participate in discussions about this incident both online and irl, that while the footage might be brutal and quite hard for some to watch, it has opened up a social discourse about the true issues some kids are facing every day.
It might be unpleasant and it might be offensive even, but if we continue to view this issue as something periferal and 'not real' kids will still be bullied. Whether you agree with any of the choices and decisions and actions of any of the stakeholders in this incident, we all must surely be aware that it's a good thing that the issue has been brought out into the open for all of us to not only address the rights and wrongs of the stakeholders, but also to consider what we personally should be doing to safeguard our children - either as victims or bullies - from similar outcomes. |
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snap
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Now on a more serious note Spexx I think you misunderstand the motivation behind the thread and some of the comments. I don't take any pleasure in someone's pain. I very much support and give a huge shout out to anyone who finally realizes they don't have to take that shit or live in fear. In this case I recognize and am pleased for the boy who has decided enough is enough and chooses to stop being a victim. I also support life lessons that can benefit all involved at a young age. In this case the former victim learned a lesson but hopefully the bully did as well. Hopefully he will realize that other people aren't there to make him feel like billy bigboots. Hopefully in the future he will choose not to pick on others he perceives to be weaker than himself. Sometimes lessons are painful but the pain involved is not the source of enjoyment but merely a catalyst for change. |
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You can behave like McVeigh or Bin Laden. I will behave like Gandhi or MLK. Yes, Flint, this is hyperbole. Sometimes hyperbole is useful in getting a point across. |
Another way to look at it is this: if the video had instead shown the little kid punching the victim, and then a hall monitor marches up, grabs the bully by the scruff of the neck, and paddles him soundly but calmly before sending him to detention, most people's reaction would be different. We might nod in satisfaction, or even smirk, but no one would be particularly cheering. Because we're not celebrating the fact that the bully was injured, or even humiliated--we're celebrating the victim overcoming his fear, and becoming a more confident person. It's joy for the victim, not vengefulness against the bully.
Another important thing to note is that if (in some magical fairy tale land) this school actually were to enact corporal punishment, it still wouldn't be as effective as this one small display you see in the video. The bully very well might redouble his torture of the victim after being paddled by a hall monitor, because that's how power hierarchies work: you can't retaliate against the power above you, so you take it out on those below you. It's the reason why kids who are beaten at home often become bullies in the first place. The lesson that the bully is not above this kid at school, and that any other supposedly weak kid might punch back at any given time, you never know--that's a far stronger lesson than "the hall monitor might punish me... so I'd better not get caught." |
after someone punched you in the face twice, you would let him hit you a third time? really?
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No, I wouldn't.
Spexx you are avoiding the issue. What would you see instead? What do you think the big kid should have done? He ignored it the first time. And the second. It didn't get him very far, did it? And yes, there is a difference. This victim's behaviour is instant retaliation/response, no premeditation. If he had waited until the next day to attack the little squirt, that would be an entirely different scenario. Like McVeigh and Bin Laden. |
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Good old Osama tried to blow up a building to make a political statement. Not the White House, Capitol Building or Supreme Court, not even a military base, instead he tried to blow up a commercial building filled with an international hodgepodge of people. That didn't work so years later he came back with planes. Statement made. "Fuck you America" Neither situation even remotely correlates with a kid standing still and taking punches and then deciding he'd had enough before immediately repulsing the attack, downing his attacker, ensuring he wouldn't be attacked again, and walking away I have great respect for Ghandi and MLK, and I respect your right to behave in that manner when you are presented with the opportunity. It might be important to remember though that if we all felt and behaved as you suggest we would all be at the mercy of the thugs and bullies because no one would be there to slap them down. |
MLK and Gandhi were able to use non-violent protests to bring social change upon their society but these protest movements are only successful under certain conditions. If a non-violent movement against Hitler started in the late 1930's (or any brutal dictator for that matter) I really doubt they would have have enjoyed the same amount of success.
Dealing with bullies works in a similar fashion. Using non-violent methods will work under certain conditions but will fail in others. If talking to teachers and parents have not stopped the bullying, sometimes a fight in the next best option. |
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It's really hard to say what you might do in that kid's position. The adrenaline that hits you might well change your opinion, spexx. Intellectually, it's correct and easy to say that violence is never the answer. And then someone hits you in the mouth.
It's a unique scenario. He's clearly much larger than his tormentor, and stronger. You usually don't see this played out this way. Also, the way the smaller kid was behaving made me think that he had been doing this for a while. I don't think it was the first time he had picked on the larger kid. He had become bold, it would seem. And the big kid finally had enough. I had a smaller kid (my best childhood friend) hit me in the face once. He got scared and ran away as soon as he did it, and stayed out of reach long enough to let me cool down and apologize over and over. I never hit him back. Had he stood there and tried to give me 3, I am pretty certain I would have acted similarly to the way that this kid did.... actually, I started toward Dan after the first shot.... |
Australian School 'Bully' -- I'm Not Sorry!
I keep coming back to the same questions ... Why was this on video? Did anyone ask the person who shot it? It seemed premeditated to me. |
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Sometime's I think he just says something weird to get a reaction. Fishing. That's my take on it. For whatever reason, there is a lack of subtly to be sure.
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You show an amazing lack of understanding sarcasm.
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Yeah, it's hard to detect when your quotes are snatched and then scattered all out of order and stuff. Somebody must work for Faux News. :lol:
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Spexxie - check Pico & me - check Only one missing. Not bad for one post in under 2 hours as well. Go team! :thumb: |
I dunno, classic,... It WAS pretty clear that spex was being ironic when he said the big kid should have busted a cap in his ass.
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I don't think people are celebrating violence. I, in particular would be celebrating the bigger kid's confidence to stand up for himself. If he let that kid pick on him long enough, then others would jump on that bandwagon. Sometimes it is even worse when the school administration gets involved. If that were my kid, I would be proud that he didn't let the little snot keep messing with him. He should go out for football. :)
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Obviously everyone else did other than me. Shocked - NOT.
I was reminded of the BB gun you bought your son and surprised at this comment at first, but didn't see where the sarcasm was indicated. Whatever - my bad. |
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This thread reminded me of some other Cellar discussions.
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=1...hlight=justice http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=2...hlight=teacher |
I want to take this back to the comment Sundae made initially, and with which I agreed: it's a question of proportionate or disproportionate force.
Had the bigger lad thrown a punch, chances are we would not be having this conversatiion. If he'd given him a hard shove, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Either of those responses, given the disparity in size and strength, would have shocked, possibly hurt, the bully and given a clear message that this kid isn;t for bullying. He didn't 'hit back'. He picked the other kid up, turned him over and slammed him bodily onto the ground. He basically pulled a WWF move on another kid. Only, in WWF they are landing on sprung surfaces. That is either entirely over the top as a response, or shows a serious misunderstanding of staged -v- actual violence. It also possibly shows a either a lack of awareness of his own strength, or a lack of awareness of the potential for his actions to cause harm. None of which makes me think the lad should be in trouble for acting the way he did. But it does suggest some important lessons he could do with learning fairly soon. |
I'm pretty sure he was hoping his actions would cause harm. lol
How can we expect kids not to let things escalate when as adults and world rulers we aren't capable of the same? I'd also suggest that giving the kid a hard shove or a punch could lead to the same or worse injuries. Either you're against violence as an effective way to end conflict or you're not. No disrespect Dana, but why do you get to decide what the right amount of violence is? |
I think the bigger kid showed remarkable restraint at the end there. He watched to make sure tiny was finished, and just walked away. He could have dropped an atomic elbow or put a figure 4 leg lock on his ass.....
just sayin' |
My only regret is the big kid didn't pick him up and throw him down again after he got up. A pile driver on the head was certainly warranted. And then the pussy had the balls to get on international news and said it was not his fault. To late asshole. I hope you have a headache.
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All of y'all "go victim" people are ignoring one crucial point. The victim could have accidentally killed or crippled the bully when he picked him up and threw him down. If that has been the result, it would have ruined his life and emotions a lot more than being bullied a bit. To me, that is why his reaction is the wrong one, his life could have been RUINED by that act far worse than any suspension. If you don't believe me, ask my mother how it feels to have your bully killed by accident, only if you just wished their death and weren't even the cause of it yourself.
When my mother was a little girl, her next door neighbor was her bully. One day my mom was outside playing, and the bully came along on her bike and proceeded to run over my mother's toes. My mother yelled at her, "I hope you die." Well, the girl did, that night she and her grandfather were stalled on a train track and hit. Mom found out the next day in school and still carries around the scar of wishing something so horrible on a person, and then actually have it happen. Also, yes, the bully probably would not have stopped with just administrative intervention, but we have no proof that that little move won't bring the bully back with a bigger vendetta, a few friends, and a more secluded spot. Sometime standing up to the bully doesn't stop them, it only makes them that much more determined to show you that they're boss. |
I don't think anyone missed that point mtp. It's been brought up a number of times.
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Well twice is a number of times isn't it? :)
Seriously though, I think that point is central to Dana's argument - or at least, that's what I get out of her posts. As adults posting in this thread, I think I can speak for everyone when I say that none of us would want any lasting or permanent harm to come to either of these boys. Speaking for myself I feel very sorry for both boys and would like to see better systems in place, but then, schools already have their hands tied on what they can actually do about things like this and ultimately, we say that it's really a parents job to teach a child what the difference is between right and wrong. Clearly some parents fail, so then whose fault is it? Really? Watching the interviews with the parents of these boys, it seems to me that none of them are particularly bright and probably don't have the best social skills themselves. It's a sad state of affairs, but when it all comes down to it, the parents should be better guides and role models for their kids, but the truth is, sometimes they're not, so then the government should take over? We should hope the child somehow figures out where he's going wrong? What? What is the answer? |
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I think all the girls should just be sterilized some time before they can breed, then after they're in a stable relationship and everything's peachy and they've both done the course, then she gets unsterilized and they can have a baby. Gatica style. :) Or even stepford wives?
I know it's a serious subject, but I'm just not sure if there's an answer. Moving a child to a different school is a big step, and chances are, if their attitude or behaviour doesn't change, they'll probably still have the same issues to deal with. Kids have a pecking order as do most other social groups. Not sure what the answer is, but I can only go on personal experience with my own kids, and that has been that a bully will keep going till he finds out the hard way that you've had enough. |
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Moving a child to a different school is a big step, but its better than them being forced to violence, not just because I think violence is wrong, but because things can go horribly horribly wrong. Freak accidents DO happen. Kids do have a pecking order, but at least where I grew up, it was very often not nearly to the extreme as to what that video showed. I think that in most cases it is rare and if you move your kid away from one bully, that there will not just be another like him at the next school. Bullies don't always learn their lesson, even if its the hard way. If you fight back, there is nothing to say they won't just try to find another way to exert their power over you. |
Everything you say is true mtp, but in practice, it costs a lot of money to change schools. more money than many if not most families can afford. Particularly those who already have financial stresses (as I suspect the families in these videos have).
There needs to be a holistic approach showing concern not just for the victim, but for the bully also. Clearly according to research bullying is mostly (if not exclusively) perpetrated by those who feel a lack of power in some other area, so with that in mind, we need to address these issues with intensive counselling for the child and also the family. Unfortunately, a lot of the causes of these issues are due to low socio-economic situations for the family, so the options are limited unless covered by the state, and at this stage, that's not really the case. In extreme circumstances it can be, but often the funds are channelled through ways in which the majority of the benefit is not for the child. eta: and all of this is assuming the family is willing to accept help, and in many cases, the family simply denies the problem and refuses help. |
I guess what it comes down to is that if the family wont or can't help, and any help from the state is at best ineffectual, most parents of a bullied child would condone almost any other recourse in order to protect their child from abuse, which is the sentiment expressed by many here. I know that in the situation of my kids, the school was unable to protect them, and so they decided to protect themselves, and I supported them. Surely if a parent of a bullied child who stood up for themselves then chastised the child it would cause the same, if not more harm than the bullying in the first place.
Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils rather than what's right or wrong. |
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Even if it is a difficult thing to do, but if it is still an option, if you have to move your child to protect them from that extreme choice, I would think that would be a parent's choice. Just remember, your child may commit involuntary manslaughter even if they're just protecting themselves. If you can at all reduce the chance of that happening, wouldn't you do anything within your power to do so? |
That's true, so I guess if we lived in a Utopian society, it'd be easy. Unfortunately we don't, and most (if they exist) cures for bullying, the nice way, are achieved through long term aid. Sometimes the victim doesn't have a long time to wait. It's sad, but it's very true, and it's also true that until you've watched your child deflate before your eyes because of bullying, it's hard to understand why a normally passive person would condone this sort of behaviour.
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So, MTP let me get this straight. I should teach my kid to run away if someone bullies him? and if that doesn't work I should help him to run further by moving him to a different school? So if the bully is in the neighborhood, should I also sell my house and move out of state?
No thanks. Conflict is rarely beneficial and it is certainly something to be avoided, but there is value in having a spine and being willing to stand up for yourself and not waiting for some benevolent authority figure to come save you. Waiting for an authority figure to come save you only works when they have the time, energy, and desire to give a shit about you. If you won't stand up for yourself in the unfortunate event it is required, don't expect anyone else to do it for you. Violence/conflict should not be desired, nor should it be feared. and before you go further down the "he could have permanently damaged that poor bully" road, yes - you are right. A discussion on appropriate use of force and escalation would be a good idea, but no damn way would I scold the kid for standing up for himself. |
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@Lookout- It is NOT running away or teaching them to run away. It is teaching them to remove themselves from a bad situation before they accidentally make it worse. So you would rather your child be put in a situation where he could accidentally cripple or KILL another child just so they won't have to swallow their pride and walk away from a fight? One punch can kill, there is not appropriate amount of violence. Plus no one said anything about selling your house and moving states. What, you only have one school in your whole state? |
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