Hmmm. Gotta say if you're hospitalizing your bedmates, you're doing something wrong; repeat business is vital. I do know a dyke couple where Tab A got her wrist broken while fisting Slot B, though. Just a little too effective.

There's certainly no contradiction between toughness and being hetero in a woman, though. I know plenty of people of all genders representing all combinations of "toughness" and sexual preference.

Free and Clear

Here is an article out of ESPN the magazine about the gay NFL football player. Very interesting, it is actually written by him with the help of another editor. Very worthwhile reading.

Gay Games!
 

Okay when I first saw this all I saw was a silly fag on ice. Then I went on to read it was the 6th Annual Gay Games. What a bunch of hooey. I see that someone posted that there shouldn't be a gay games due to the fact that they could participate in the normal olympics. I have to say "RIGHTO"

Now before you start the moaning and complaining (and flaming) let me add that I am a gay man. I still think the whole thing is a bunch of crap and I really don't want to hear that "Yes but they have been opressed for years." GET OVER IT. Besides the fact I really don't see how a 60 year-old drag queen on ice skates is going to further the cause of gays and lesbians everywhere.

To me it sets us back. Why? Here is why. The olympics are a set of games that are created for the elite, many gays have been in the oylmics and been quite good at it. Now along comes a group of wimpy pansies and says "Thats too hard" , "This doesn't celebrate the beauty inside me", whatever. You created a set of games becasue you are not good enough to be in the regular olympics.

DO YOU REALLY THINK IS THE WAY TO GET RESPECT? Why don't you be the best that you can be and be come the best Swimmer, Skater, Gymnist, or Weightlifter possible, and leave the GAY out of it. Why is is that gays feel like they have to annouce they are gay. Do you see other groups doing this. To me is is just a big joke, you want respect from the rest of the community there is ONE way to gt it. Act like a normal human being, stopping forcing "GAY" down everyones throats. Hell for the most part gays piss me off worse than anything else on earth and I know that if I am this annoyed then the rest of the world must be feed up with you.

As it has already been said. . . . Let the Flames begin!

Re: Gay Games!
 

The point isn't that the folks participating in (competing *and* attending) in the Gay Games aren't good enough for the "normal" Olympics. The point is that "normal" athletic events --those of lesser fame as well as the Olympic Games themselves--aren't good enough for queer folks to participate in without constatly worrying about if they're "looking normal" or being abused by the others attending.

You say you're a gay man: are you out or closeted?

Closeted or 'OUT'
 

Maggie and everyone else that would like to know:

I have no idea what the hell that means I never have. I mean are you asking if I go up to everyone an say 'Hi, I am Phil and I am a homosexual' well then the answer would be NO. Why would you do that. I mean you can be who you are without announcing it with flags waving.

Now, if you are asking if people know that I am gay. Well that would depend on how much intelligence they have. I always announce my partner as my partner and I make no bones about having a one bedroom house and have two grown men living there. If someone asks me if I am gay of course my answer would be yes, as I do not make it a regular habit to be a liar.

There are a lot of things about me people don't know. Do some people at work know, yes? Do they all know? Hell no, do you go to work and announce the sexual positions you use. You may to some to others it is of no consequence. Why do some people feel that they have to announce being gay. To be quite frank, most people do not deserve to know that much about me. Do you feel you have to tell everyone your sexual preference? I mean are you OUT as a heterosexual and if you say yes how do you know? I mean do you make it a point to say hey I am MaggieL and like to blow guys or girls. Why does ones life have to be based on the sex they have? Really people say, be colorblind and racism will fade, don’t mind what sexual preference people are and hatred will go away. If we are all supposed to be so integrated why is everyone trying to divide everything? I mean if you are truly color blind why say I am white, or I am black? If you have no problem with sexual preference then why do you have to say I am gay or straight?

I guess it is just my philosophy on life you see when I see people I tend to think more than what color, what sex, what sexual preference, or what nationality they are . I tend to not care.

So am I out? Well MaggieL I guess I just don’t thing you earned the right to know.

BTW what the HELL? Why do they have to worry about looking 'normal' are they abnormal in some way? I guess they think they are or else why invent a seperated set of games, and if you are going to ask if a man dressing in women's clothing is normal well let me take the bigoted approach and say "NO" is is not normal and Yes, there are are a set of stanards we live by.

"I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is."

Re: Closeted or 'OUT'
 

Wow...hit quite a nerve with that one.

By "out" I simply meant is your queerness a big secret that you are at pains to conceal (which is absolutely your right) or not. In a discussion of how queer folks relate to society I think it's an important thing to know; because it definately changes your point of view.

If you truly don't know what "out" means, let's try some examples: Ellen de Generis is definately out. J. Edgar Hoover was not. Now, there's a fairly broad spectrum in between, of course. I think how cranked up you are about answering that question says a lot...even though what you say suggests to me that you are not totally "closeted", which would mean that to my way of thinking you're out.

Interesting that you introduce your lifepartner as "your partner"; my lifepartner and I used to use that phrase until we discovered that many people thought we meant "business partner". "Roommate" doesn't always convey the idea of a comitted intimate relationship either.

Again, you've got a right to be as open about your own relationships as you like. As do other people. Perhaps in a perfect world, no one would care what your sexual orientation was, but the woreld is far from perfect, and being queer isn't purely a personal issue, it's political too.

That "are you out or not" is an issue is another indication of why "it's not the same thing to be queer"; in general, straight people don't conceal their relationships unless they're cheating on someone or otherwise banging someone they shouldn't--like the boss, ferinstance. Of course, queer folks keep that kind of thing on the QT too.

You say that people don't need to know whether or not you're gay, but isn't that just a rationalization for your shame at them knowing?

These other gays aren't trying to "shove it in people's faces". They're expressing who they are, because they love themselves and have a high self-confidence.

No. I think what he's saying is "it's really none of your fucking business". He obviously isn't ashamed of it or he wouldn't have admitted it here. He just doesn't feel the need to flaunt it.

Well, admitting something online is no big deal. You're basically anonymous (unless that's his real name, of course).

He's said that he tells some people he's gay, but it's clear that he only tells people if he has to. That's the clue to the motivation, I think. He doesn't lie about it, but he doesn't freely offer the information, either. He makes a point of not telling people unless they absolutely need to know.

You say he doesn't like to "flaunt it", but noone actually does this. To say that some gays are flaunting their sexuality is to mischaracterize their motivations. It's my opinion that they just want to be themselves openly. For them, it's not about showing off to other people for their own ego's sake. To do so would be counterproductive to the ego.

I don't really like to tell people i'm from Arkansas. It's really none of their business. If they're intelligent, they'll figure it out.

i guess i really dont understand what youre suggesting. are you saying he should actively try to work it into conversation? as in "this dinner is great! im gay. could you pass the potatoes?". :)

i dont go around telling people im straight. it really is nobodys business but my own. so i dont see why gay people should have to tell people theyre gay. it comes off like theyre warning you about it or something. its okay to be proud of what you are, and if you want to tell people thats fine. but just because a person places different values on privacy does not imply that theyre ashamed of what they are.

~james

No, i'm not saying work it into irrelevant conversation. That'd just be silly.

the only reason i ask is because philgump did say that he will not lie if asked. he felt it was personal, but i did not get the impression that he was in any way ashamed of his lifestyle.

~james

I pretty much agree with philgump on this one. I don't just go around saying "I got laid last night." It's no one's business but mine (and my partner's, if I did indeed) - but I won't lie about it either. I just don't offer it up.

It's fine to be gay and proud if that's what floats your boat. But as for being yourself openly, I don't think it needs to include your sexuality. Whether or not someone is gay is not immediately physically obvious, like color of skin. So "being yourself" shouldn't mean that they have to fit into the stereotypical gay male mold - "I'm sthooper!" I know exactly one gay male where you could just <b>tell</b> - and a number of others where you couldn't.

So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."

i almost fell out of my chair laughing at that. i think it was how you spelled it.

~james

Famous people make shitty examples with regards to personal life. There entire life is under a microscope everday so when they decide to come out every single person knows about it. And they incure the wrath of people who are homophobic yet don't know them personally. Kind of a different story if your next door neighbor decided to come out today.



Exactly

Of course not. You don't have to, because everyone simply assumes that you *are* straight...after all, isn't everybody?

And that's kind of the point. If you hold hands with your girlfriend on the street, nobody accuses you of "flaunting" anything; it's an act with no political significance. But if I hold hands with *my* girlfriend in public, all of a sudden I'm "getting in peoples face's with my sexuality". How rude of me. A well-balanced, *nice* queer would simply crawl back into the closet and not upset people. It's uppity queers like that that give queerness a bad name. Right, Philgump? :-)

There is no way to have an ordinary, everyday expression of queer sexuality without it being controversial...whereas straight sexuality is publically expressed *constantly*...so much so that most of it passes pretty much unnoticed. This is the value of a space like the Gay Games, or a Pride Parade, or places like Key West or the Castro or Provincetown. There, routine expression between two people (hand-holding, hugging, etc.) of same-sex affection isn't politiczed, it matters only to the people involved.

Of course, I could also hold hands with a boyfriend (don't have one at the moment but that could change) and get flack from some gay people for being bisexual. "Fencesitter! Don't camoflage! Accept your true queer nature like the rest of us have!"

"How queer is that?" :-)

The normative collective cultural pressure is "don't ask, don't tell"...that way you don't ever challenge people's cherished assumptions, or stir up any repressed emotion or cognitive dissonance. It make it possible to continue the fallacy that "almost everybody is straight, so it's OK to assume that everybody is".

I don't think that's it at all (though I haven't ever walked down the street holding hands with another male, so I can't speak from personal experience). I think all he's saying is that it's fine to be gay, but by differentiating yourself (i.e., by having "gay games"), you further instill in people the notion that gays are different from "normal" human beings.

I didn't read anything from him saying that same sex couples shouldn't walk down the street holding hands - and of course there's always going to be some stares or whatnot. Give it time though, and try not to be so self conscious about it. I think less people actually care than you might think.

Juju, I wouldn't tell anyone you're from Arkansas either. ;)

It's amazing how different cultures can be. If two guys held hands in the US, they would almost automatically be labeled as "gay." In the Arab world, from what I understand, that is considered a sign of good friendship.

Well, queer folk *are* different from "normal" human beings. They're queer.

But making gayness invisible does nothing to advance the idea that "queer folks are like other people only queer". That's why there are gay amateur radio clubs, and gay railroad model clubs, and gay shooting clubs. (Obligatory plug: http://www.pinkpistols.org Don't miss Gwen on "PhillyLive" tonight at 7:30pm on WYBE)
Of course. Queer folks should *always* be prepared to accept rude behavior from "normal" people, what else can you expect? :-)

But sometimes it's nice to have a place where you *don't* have to put up with that bullshit, and that's what the Gay Games and other queer space are for.

I suppose. But there's not much point in me offering examples from people who *aren't* famous...nobody knows who they are.

Yes, that would be like the difference between a Matthew Shepard story vs. a Brandon Teena story.

Speaking of Brandon, November 20th is The fourth annual Transgender Day of Remeberance

Or maybe it's that you don't know who they are. That's the thing with people who are out. their friends probably know they are out but you can't tell who they are when you walk down the street. Which is a indicator that they are the same as you and me. I think the biggest thing is that people have very little experience with actual acquaintences who are gay. If they had that experience instead of famous people who suddenly come out, most people would have a different view of gays.

I personaly have had no experience with someone who is gay so I'm making this up as I go. But if I found out my friends were gay it would be quite a shock. Though I like to think I would be able to handle it and look at them the same.

The Fourth Annual Transgender Day of Remeberance!!!
 

See that is what I mean....segragation!!!

Well, I declare this the first Annual day of people with medium brown hair that like bananas and like to eat them frozen dipped in chocolate while sipping diet cola day. Why not make a day for Jews for Hitler!

BTW Dave, I have to say I would not hold another mans hand while out and about in town. You see there is are certain things you don't do. I mean is if you enjoyed throwing up and eating it would you still do it in public NO! Why because it is not yet socially acceptable. Do you still have the right to eat your own barf? Sure, but that would not be appropriate at this age in history. perhaps as people grow more fond of puke eating it will become ok, like spitting *this one I still think is gross* anywhere that you happen to be.

My Point and I do have one (he he inside joke) is that we live in an age where it is OK to be gay but not OK for them to make out in public. That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!

To all that may ask and I have seen sveral NO I AM NOT ASHAMED TO BE GAY!!!!! I just don't think it is the best word that describes me. Perhaps some people are so shallow and two-dimensional that they have to rely on catorgorizing themselves as *GAY* becasue that is the most interesting thing about them. I on the other hand would much rather be known as the guy that makes people laugh, or that crazy guy than to be known as that gay guy! Hmmm perhaps it is just me but being known as "The Gay Guy" just seems to be a bit degrading. Just like if I catorgorized maggie as that "Dyke Chick".

Sweet jesus. I've been following this post for a while and I just haven't said anything until this moment.

Not to be the obnoxious one with the dictionary or anything but:

queer (kwîr)
adj. queer·er, queer·est
Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.
Slang. Fake; counterfeit.
Feeling slightly ill; queasy.
Offensive Slang. Homosexual.
Usage Problem. Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.

What is the deal with MaggieL using the word queer? Anyone else finding that odd? Reminds me of the other day I was at a thrift store and asked the owner what charity her store supported, and she said she started the store herself "Because
my daughter is a retard, and I wanted to help other retards."
I'm sorry but that is not right. Saying "My daughter is mentally retarded" or "mentally challenged" would have been nicer than busting out with "shes a retard and i wanna help other retards."
Maybe the fact that she then said "We are going to take all the donation money to take the retards to Disney World because retards seem to like that" made it a bit worse....but back to the issue..

In my opinion "those damn queers" are people too. We had to vote on seperate gay rights in South Florida earlier this year and I don't think that gay people should have their own set of rights. Everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated the same. One minute people are screaming about segregation, and the next they are seperating themselves again.

If we are going to give gay people their own set of games, then what I would like to know is where is the Olympics for fat people that can't run as fast?

I would have to agree with Phil, I understand what he is trying to say about not wanting gay people to be seperated from others that are "normal." I happen to have a lot of friends that are "gay" and they are "normal" to me. I have seen people go out of their way to bash gay people because they are holding hands, so I can completely understand Phil's reasoning behind not flaunting it in public.

I could have lived without the barf theory, Phil...and BTW, nice plug for Ellen's book :)

*~Tara~*

i think this is what youre looking for.

~james

Nah. I can't speak for her, but she may wish to use it as a word of empowerment or for the sheer "power" the word holds (similar to "spic" or "nigger").

Absolutely. Also because it's a bit more inclusive used in this way; it embraces bisexual and transgendered people as well, which "gay" might or might not, depending on who you ask. For examples, many transsexual people don't consider themselves gay if they are exclusively attracted to the opposit sex (referenced to their desired sex). Brandon Teena had a girlfriend, for example.
I largely agree with that. Certainly I don't endorse hate crime laws; if I'm attacked, first let me defend myself, and then bring a criminal complaint for assault or whatever else is appropriate.
Let's be clear though, Legs: when you say "bashing gay people" are you talking about an actual assault, just taunting, or something else?

"<i>That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!</i>" is certainly not a good reason for not hand holding. It might be good advice forpeople who don't like it. . The work "flaunting" is completely misapplied; would you call it "flaunting" when a straight couple holds hands?

As for comparing same sex hand-holding to throwing up, well, if as a man who is gay, you're so ego-dystonic that you find that analogy apt, Phil, I honestly think you should seek some counseling. Just my opinion.

As for being called "that dyke chick", the problem I'd have with that is that it's misleading. Folks might presume I'm exclusively Lesbian, and I'm not.

Re: The Fourth Annual Transgender Day of Remeberance!!!
 

Well, there are days to remeber the Jews Hitler killed. There are also days to remeber the homosexuals he slaughtered. Why there shouldn't there be a day to remeber murdered transsexuals?

Is Memorial Day segregation because it's only to remeber US veterans killed in combat?

I ab*******solutely agree
 

I agree with lawman wholeheartedly. Do whatever the f*** you want, but if you want to be taken seriously do it with the rest of the world and then prove your point. Still, I would take points on the number of falls in that long program.

Just mt opinion
 

Well, I am not going to bring anyone around to my way of thinking...not that I would even try. I guess I was just born in the wrong age....I just see people following MaggieL's way of thinking about being touchy feely and making sure we don't hurt anyones feelings. Meanwhile look around you the world you are living is falling apart in little shards and has been doing so ever since World War II ended. Not to say that the world was a bed or roses before. I agree it was not.

I will say this, in my mind the politically correct, touchy feely, make sure no on is excluded concept is turning this country and several others into a bed of horseshit, which may grow flowers for your guns but isn't doing a darn thing for the good of the country. Am I calling for hatred and brutal anarchy? NO!

What I am saying is that frivolous lawsuits are teeming, self-respect is at an all time low for most teenagers (just look at the girl who just came to this country, had a baby smothered it to death, and is now being defended by lawyers that she didn't understand because of the culture she is from) and everyone seems to care less for his fellowman than ever he did before. Yet you still say that this type of segregation and sub dividing is working!

All is seems to do is breed resentment not togetherness, it breeds mistrust not communication, it breeds misunderstandings not community pride! If you think that the gay/lesbian/transgendered community showed up to see a drag-queen on ice because they were proud, think again. I have been in the gay community all my life and it is not pride that this kind of spectacle invokes; it is humor. Yes, I am sorry everyone is laughing at him not with him, and it is not the evil 'straight' people. It is the very people you are calling the 'Queer Community'. I have been around enough to know what the 'Queer Community' is about and it is not pride.

It is about boastful, egotistical, pompous, hedonists, (and before someone jumps in, I am speaking in generalities but for the most part if people are honest will agree, don’t believe me watch a gay film.) that only care about the next person they can have sex with. They for the most part are a group of people that place no value or worth on a person beyond the money they have in the bank, the size of the penis they have in their pants, or what kind of body they have. You may convince some people here that this is a stereotype that doesn’t exist, but you aren’t piss on me and tell me it is raining. I may have been born on a Tuesday but, it wasn’t last Tuesday.

Lawman
 

Well, one good thing came out of my post, I bet you lawman didn't get flamed even once.

It's really not as simple as that. Your sexuality is a part of you, and comes up in many more situations than just in the bedroom.

For example:<ul><li>holding hands
<li>kissing
<li>flirting
<li>having a crush on someone (and if they're straight, trying to hide it)
<li>checking someone out that you think is hot
<li>going out on a date</ul>These are all things that straight people don't have to hide. If you're gay, though, engaging in any of these results in innumerable interpersonal consequences. People will start treating you differently. You can lose friends. You could lose your job. Or, people could just start taunting and harrasing you. It is not easy to keep it a secret. It requires constant effort. If there are people who know, you know who all of them are, and if they tell someone else without your permission, it's a big deal. Being in the closet is very stressful. The whole point of being "out" is so that you don't have to deal with all that bullshit. If you're out, some people are going to start treating you like shit, but you don't care anymore because it's too much stress to have to hide it all the time. If you're not maintaining the lie, you may not go around announcing your sexuality to people, but it will be obvious in the things that you do. The first thing you're going to want to do when you're out is to hold hands in public. Not because you want to flaunt your sexuality, but because you want to feel liberated from the oppression of the constant lying.

Any sort of talk about people not needing to know is bullshit. When they find out, they're going to start treating you differently. They could be okay with it, but they might be prejudiced and start hating you with extreme vigilance. Until they find out, you just don't know which it's going to be, and the stress in the meantime could be killer.

What?!?
 

Juju, are you speaking from experience? I met Jon in College, in Memphis, Tennessee at Crichton College which is a Christian Bible Collage. All my friends there know and they are all still my friends. They still fly down to Florida to visit me.

Only one out of maybe 20 friends, decided to be an asshole about the whole thing, and even he an ex-military person didn't attack me physically. He just decided we shouldn't be friends.

There are going to be assholes in every group up until this good old earth is either blown up, we all evolve, or become extinct.

I am not saying gay-bashing, race crimes, or even or any hate crimes do not exist, but they are NOT as often as you think and if any one would like to do the statistics I think it was determined that gays performs more crimes on others gays that there are straight-gay crimes. I wish I had those facts at hand.

My point is even if every straight person was forced to love every gay ( I refuse to use the word queer). There would still be hate. It is the nature of the beast, people will hate you for religion, political affiliation, color, creed, whether you like cream or whole kernel. . . . it just goes on and on.

I did a tolerance course once and they split the room into two groups, behind the scenes they had noted the eye color of everyone in the room. The blue eyes were moved to the left while the others were moved to the right. This was all unbeknownst to the people being split up. Then the teacher had us each read an article about how science had, figured out that people of blue eyes were of a greater intelligence than that people of any other color. We were to read the article and report back as a group. All but physical violence almost broke out. Why, 10 minutes earlier eye color was the last thing on anyone’s mind? The answer was, because someone pointed out that there WAS a difference. The teacher went on to say that the article was fake and that there were no such findings, but what do you know the blue-eyed people were still smug about the whole thing at break and I still think blue-eyed people have this arrogance about them, that my friends is a real life lesson in hatred. Make your self stand out, force others to notice and I promise you people WILL hate you for it. It is the very nature of what we are. Maybe it is leftover from our primal past where being different meant you could pose a greater danger to the group, you know the strong survive. It may not be right but it is factual!

Re: What?!?
 

Yep. I've had many gay friends and it's always like I described with them.

In fact, it's my experience that most Christians think gays are evil and going straight to hell. That must be a pretty liberal Christian College you went to.

I watched a video about that in sociology last year. It was actually done with a group of 2nd graders. It was crazy how quickly this kids began to treat their friends like crap due to something there teacher taught them. Then they showed it the next day when the reverse was taught and guess what, the ones who had been discriminated against the day before were as mean as the others.

Boy so that means that the great majority of the US(protestants) thinks gays are evil and going straight to hell. That's quite the generalization.
I'm assuming you actually mean Catholics because catholics are usually associated with being the strongest believers in that theory. But then I'm Catholic, went to a Catholic church and met very few people who believed Gays were going straight to hell. In fact I've never heard that from a fellow Catholic who garners any respect among the majority of his/her peers.
In fact we had a protest on campus last weekend against the fact that our University supports the "10% society" This came yes from a Catholic church, but more people came out to protest the protesters, in fact not a single Catholic from Grand Forks came out in the support of those again the Gay society. Quite an illustration of this great majority that hates gays. 10 - 300 wow.

Most people around here are baptists, and nearly all of them think that being gay is immoral.

okay sorry I got a littlle out of hand. I still think saying most chrisitians think all gays are going to hell is a little extreme. Not that there aren't those that due. I'm sure the percentage of christians who believe gay's are going to hell is the same percentage of those in of other religions that think gays are evil and should die.(pulled completely out of my ass, with no statistical proof)

Where I live(the bible belt), about 95% are anti-gay. I don't know how other places and denominations are. I can only judge from the set of Christians i've personally met. I really hope it's different in other places, but most of the Christians i've met are bigots (case in point).

I know it's quite likely they're not all like this. It's just that for some reason I don't know very many of the good ones.

I think it really is a bible belt thing. My sister and brother-in-law spent a few years bouncing around the South while he was getting his career on track. My sister spent a lot of time among right wing "christians" and I don't think she gained from it. Her life down south was strange. It seemed like men and women were segregated with a lot of womens groups and the like, hardly a Christian way of life IMHO. Like Cam, I'm a Catholic and was never exposed to the kind of hate juju's link exposes. For most Catholics our faith is about living the sort of life that others might look at and think "those folks have something special going there." Leading by example has taken a big hit with the abuse scandals and may yet get uglier as the conservatives try to drive gay priests out of the church. Gotta get to work....

"for example" of what? Brandon Teena was a girl who liked girls.

It's good to know there's some sanity out there. I guess this is one of those cases where you look around you and assume it's that way everywhere. A false assumption, but an easy one to make.

I'll be getting my CS degree at the end of next year (yay!), then Kathy and I are going to get the hell out of this crazy place. I'm really thinking of Dallas, Texas, though, so i'm not sure how different religion is in that area. Not that that would affect my decision. :)

Brandon (born "Teena Brandon") was a transsexual man who liked girls. When it was discovered that he'd been born female, he was raped, then when he filed a criminal complaint on the rape, he was murdered, along with several of his friends.

When I said "referenced to their desired sex", I meant the sex they identified as. Brandon was living full-time in a male role. As far as I'm concened he was "straight" as a male, and queer because he was transsexual. That he had not yet had reassignment surgery at age 20 doen't make him a woman as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not sure exactly what my opinion on the whole thing is, as far as what constitues a "woman" vs. "living as a man"... okay, so "Brandon" was living as a man, but... had a vagina. Which is a pretty distintively female characteristic. I think probably the most accurate way to describe it would be "Teena Brandon was a girl, living as a man, who liked girls." But I'm not sure that I feel it's accurate to call her a man.

Well, I lived as a woman for a year before my surgery, it's a requirement. I certainly didn't have a vagina then. I'm sure Brandon didn't think of himself as a lesbian, and neither did his girlfriend. I can't see any justification for calling their relationship a lesbian relationship.

Many--but certainly not all--transsexuals are pretty much sexually abstinent until after reassignment surgery. Brandon's vagina was pretty much irrelevant to his life at the time he was murdered, since he apparently wans't having sex--or at least intercourse-- with anybody....unless you count the two guys who raped him "to prove to her she was a woman", of course.

A transsexual friend of mine once said "It's not about who you go to bed with. It's about who you go to bed <b>as</b>, in referring to her own transsexuality.

I've had straight relationships as a guy, straight relationships as a woman, lesbian relationships, and one or two relationships that could fairly be called male homosexual (although they were pretty clumsy and really didn't work out very well, not surprisingly). I've had people who were clearly being female when they slept with me go on to at least hormonal reassignment to male (broke my heart too, "she" was damned cute). I think I've got a pretty good handle on what a "lesbian relationship" is and isn't.

Again, remeber I said "referenced to their desired sex". If it makes you feel better to think of Brandon as a lesbian, go ahead, but it's pretty clear *Brandon* didn't think of himself that way, and his girlfriend had no idea he was born female, so I don't see how she's a lesbian either.

Re: Just mt opinion
 

You really are a conundrum, philgump. You claim to be a gay male yourself, and yet your rhetoric drips with every homophobic cliche in the book. This is why I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself.

Perhaps you <i>were</i> born in the wrong age...your point of view would seem to fit much better in the homogenized world of 1950's culture. And yet you claim to be young enough to be my kid--I was old enough to drink the year your profile says you were born.

Where you get "touchy-feely" in relation to me I have no idea. Most of the kiddies here seem to think I'm a ultra-conservative right-wing old fart. But I do agree with Frank Zappa when he said "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." I don't believe that just because someone will hate me for being different justifies their hatred, or most especially justifies them *acting* out of that hatred.

It's certainly not a good reason for me to pretend I'm *not* different. If someone is unable to accept that there are differences among people without dissolving in rage, it's not my job to enable them to continue in their fantasy world undisturbed.

Sorry for the long post!!!!
 

"...I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself. "

Well when I describe other gays I am not describing myself, I do not prance around with one wrist limp, with a lisp and saying things like "Girl you better work", "Okay Girlfriend" and "Faaaaabulous". If everyone should be himself why is it a large majority of gays act like every other gay that adore Barbara Streisand, Judy Garland, and let's not forget Dorothy and the Wizard of OZ. I do not cock my head to one side, snap my fingers and say things like mmmmmmhhhhmm, all right child work it. If these people wanted to "INVOKE THEIR INDIVIDUALITY”, then why do most drag queens look like one another. Why if they a 'woman trapped in a mans body' do they dress like Tammy Faye blew up on them. I have to say that is NOT normal for a straight woman OR a transgendered wo(man). If you want to know why I think they do these things. Attention! They want to be in the lime light. They want to scream at the world look at me, look at me, and then when the world does look at them a say "YUCK" they say how dare you judge me! Well, welcome to the lime light that is the price you pay for getting noticed. Every person who is been in the lime light will agree that your life is under the microscope and people are just waiting for you to f**k it all up.

I choose to live the life of a true individual, I like music because I like it, even though it may not be popular (They Might Be Giants and Dead Lizards) not because if I don't peers will say "that lame ass shit, whatever Mary", I like movies because they inspire me to think (Fight Club) or because I don't want to think at all (Super Troopers) not because it is the gay thing to do (Chuck and Buck, and Jeffery). I like to wear clothes to make comfortable not because its all the gay rage (Dolce and Gabbana, Versace) that is how I mange to live with myself.

"30 percent of all completed youth suicides are related to the issue of sexual identity."


Why do you think this is....I know why I almost succumb to it. I saw what gays were and I kept telling my self I am not like them I am not gay. I like baseball, I am not a sissy, I just like guys! Then I realized on day (with the help of my SOUTHERN BAPTIST friends) that being gay didn't mean all of that it meant I liked guys! That’s it, period nothing else. I had nothing to prove, no banner to wave, no war to wage, no masses to convert. It was just a non-issue.

I think a lot of those suicides are due to the fact that the people think that to be gay you have to change into the picture that started this post. They think they have to take up the "Gay MANual" and ACTUAL BOOK! After thumbing through the pages I thought Uggh this is what they think I am, and it was written by gays for gays.

You know I am only 30 years old, (yes, I was born in 1973 MaggieL) but I have learned quick, gays will use you for what they can tell you they are there for you then the very next week, wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, and if anyone has the audacity to say that it isn't true is a bold faced liar. If you have been around the gay community for over 6 months you will see how they use one person after the next. Now, I will be the first to say there are gays that are NOT like this. I am not so stupid or so blind as not know that to every rule there are always exceptions and now, like always life is never an absolute. But, when you see it time and time again, it is hard not to be a little jaded. Maggie if you have never uttered the phrase to the tune of "I am so damn fed up with these queens/fags/queers. Then I am sorry I have cause to doubt anything else you say.

To be honest with you I am so sick of the ‘you have to be this to be gay’ syndrome is make me want to snap. I happen to like Hockey, and I like to sit around in my house while eating a chili dog and drinking a beer and kick back and enjoy a game. If gays are as diverse and unique as you suggest, find me 10 gays, just ten that can name off hand five professional hockey, football, baseball or basketball players. Why does one the most popular gay sites on the net Gay.com not even have a section for sports, but has a section called “Essential Gay CD’s – Must have queer CDs”. Oh that’s right I am gay and when that gene kicked in during conception so did the k d. Lang, Crystal Waters, ABBA, and the love of any musical gene, as well as the taste for any man under the age of 25 with rippling abs. Well I guess I am only a half-baked gay then, because I don’t like any of that shit. Are you trying to tell me that 10% of the entire population of the world, who happen to be gay or transgendered just happen to like all the same movies, music and activities, are you serious?!? Yet, they do? Or at least that’s what Gay.com and Out magazine The Advocate and queer.com (OutProud) seem to think.

So if you now still wonder why I think like I think and can’t stand the gay scene, well my friend it is because is fake and a complete farce. If I needed to know how to think then I would be back in the stodgy 1950’s. I really don’t see why I should fight my way out of one set of controls just to let another tell me what to do. You may decide to jump on the proverbial gay band wagon but, as for my self I’ll walk and be myself. That is the reason I can say the things I say about gay men and can still live with myself, because I am right and I am not brainwashed in to thinking that if I don’t march in the gay pride parade, put a rainbow flag on my car, or vote democratic then I am a “bad gay”. I am just me and if that is not what you like then well too damn bad, maybe I will start myself a “Bad Gay Games” it seems to be the trend!

So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay? Has anyone ever made fun of you? Called you a sicko? Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel? What percentage of people have a negative response? And where do you live?

Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!
 

Well, I don't know what kind of a crowd you've run with in your life, but the idea that most gay men are the kind of flaming queens you are describing is just plain *wrong* in my experience...way beyond stereotype into total misconception.

Maybe you should get out more. So to speak. :-)

Do you really believe the bulk of the attendees at the Gay Games are typified by that one queen on skates? That's no more true than saying, for example, that most Philadelphia men are accurately represented by what you see in Mummer's Parade on New Year's Day.

None of the many gay men I've met through the Pink Pistols, the Lambda Amaterur Radio Club and in fact only two I can think of encountering elsewhere in 50 years of living were camped up to that extreme. (And even those two didn't cut loose like that except when they were strictly among friends.) Many, if not most of the gay men I know are at least interested in watching sports, even if they don't participate. (after all, in adition to the ordinary entertainment value, there's lots of prime beefcake running around in pro sports...it's just that for them the eyecandy is on the field instead of waving pompoms on the sidelines. ).

Also, "woman trapped in a man's body" is a cliche about transsexual women, not drag queens. I beleive the equivalant DQ cliche (if I can borrow from <i>Wong Foo</i>) is "A drag queen simply has too much style for one gender." Bear in mind that these are both cliches...for example, being a transsexual woman is a much more complex sitution than the trite phrase "a woman trapped in a man's body" can convey, particlarly because the line between mind and body can get blurry when the brain and sex hormones are involved.

In my experience, a DQ doesn't want to *become* a woman, if he did he'd be a transsexual. Instead he seeks to express for a period some platonic ultra-diva stylization of "femaleness" that I must confess I don't completely understand even though I perceive it through their behavior quite plainly.

Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!
 

Maggie,
I was going to stay out of this thread, as I really don't have anything to add, but suddenly I do.... To give an example of your point

Back in college I hung out (among other places) at the ham radio club. After about a year, I walk in at lunch time, and one of the guys I knew was chatting with this girl I liked - I made a joke about him hitting up on her, and they both started laughing, and he said "Charlie, after all this time, you still don't realize I'm gay?"

NEVER dawned on me - he was as "Normal" as the rest of us (Hams are strage anyaway right?), it's just he liked guys.

MY only complaints I have with _SOME_ of the gay comunity is a bit of defensiveness

Back when I was first dating, like most kids, I was doing some necking in public - it was pointed out to me (quietly) that this was NOT polite, and we stoped doing it - it makes people uncomfortable. Just like it was pointed out to me, if I know one or the other folks, I'll point it out to them. Usually by the time a person gets to the age of around 20, they understand this (Notice how rare it is to see folks playing serious kissy face in public)

However, at least around here (parts of NYC) you will continue to see this in CERTAIN sectors of the Male Gay comunity (I've NEVER seen it in the female comunity). When it's pointed out to them, they get defensive about it (not necessarly by me)

Want to hold hands? No problem - want a goodbye (hello/whatever) kiss, no problem. Want to make out? Take it private. (Hetero or Homo)

I guess that's really just a function of our ages. I don't much have a problem with people making out in public, though I can see how it's considered rude.

Maggie - I guess we look at male and female differently. I'm not saying that Brandon didn't live as a man, just that they had the physical characteristics of a female. As for the relationship... well, I feel bad for the girl involved, 'cause she was deceived (apparently), and that's not real cool. So no, I wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship either. I'm not sure what I'd consider it.

Oh, I'm *certain* of that. :-) Having been down the road I have certainly does provide a unique point-of-view.
That's the thing, though. Until they're actually climbing into the sack (or at least considering it), whether he has a penis or not isn't really relevant. Especially if he was on testosterone, (which I kind of doubt given his economic status at the time). I'm sure there's a good "Schrodinger's cat" joke in here somewhere.
"Deceived"? What if Brandon had been born male but lost his penis due to a mishap? Would his girlfriend have been "deceived" because he didn't introduce himself "Hi, I'm Brandon, I lost my dick in a harvester accident."?

We don't know how far their relationship had gone (well, actually we do know how far it *hadn't* gone), or even in what direction it was going.

Exactly at what point a transsexual person "should" disclose their backgrround to somebody else is a real conundrum. If it' s the first words out of their mouth when they meet someone, it gives the issue an importance that it doesn't deserve, and probably *does* rise to the "getting people's faces" level. If it's *never* disclosed, the TS is exposed to your charge of "deceiving" others. So it looks like the "right" answer must be somewhere inbetween...but where?

I certainly know of transexual women who got married and lived a happy life without ever telling their husbands. Assuming they *did* disclose that they were sterile before the marriage, I'm not sure I can criticize them, although it's not something *I* would ever do--too much of my life happened before my gender transition to simple pretend that it never happened and invent some "cover story" to explain my entire life "before".
Having been in somewhat similar situations myself, I can probably speak with some understanding about what Brandon was feeling. Neither of the people in the relationship saw *themselves* as lesbians, so any claim that they "really were lesbians" is kind of empty.

And given that Brandon was raped and murdered essentially for standing by his belief that he was neither a lesbian nor a woman, I think his opinion in the matter should be given considerable weight.

Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!
 

I guess if queer folks weren't attacked so often, they wouldn't be quite so defenseive. :-)

Ah, so you're saying that the individual's definitions of words should be given more credence than the collective's definitions? I'm glad you're finally on my side!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!
 

Entirely possible!

Like I said, I hold all the folks I know to the same behavior standards, and most follow them - There are a few exceptions, both homo and hetro - they tend to be avoided by me.

I'm _VERY_ libertarian - I won't tell anyone they CAN'T make out in public - however, I will tell them that _I_ consider it in "bad taste". Then again, if I don't like it, I can leave.

I guess I'm one of those folks who really doesn't like ANYONE'S sexuality shoved in my face in public - In that, I'm probably kinda close to the 1950s standards. In private? Whatever floats your boat, so long as it's between consenting adults

What -- are you going to show up with some muscle and teach him a lesson, or something?

Heh. Nah, I was just trying to get a sense of what the society he lives in is like.

Not at all.

I just have been learned though personal expereince that natal genitalia can be a very poor way to define gender.

I don't see this as a matter of individual vs. collective definitions or perception. But when the cops busted Brandon for passing bad paper, he failed the pants check, setting the whole sequence of events in motion leading to his rape and death, their operative definition was: innie=girl, outie=boy, just like Dave's. So they then announced to the world "Hey, that 'boy' ain't got no dick, so she ain't no boy".

I don't see this as a matter of "individual vs. collective". If Brandon percieved himself as male, and so did his girlfriend, then it makes little sense to define that relationship a homosexual one. Gay relationships *feel* gay; they're driven by the member-of-the-same-sex dynamic, just as hetero relationship are surfing on that opposites-attract energy. This is why so very few intimate relationships survive a gender transition.

Seems to me there was once a STNG epsode along these lines, too...

Questions
 

I am going to try to keep this post short, which means only two pages. :)

Juju: "So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay?"
The worst would have to have been when a gaggle of idiots were driving down the street and yelled faggot and zoomed off.

JuJu "Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel?"
Yes, of course I have had negative reactions. These days you can get a negative reaction if you save an infant from drowning. There is never a way to please everyone. How did it make me feel? It didn't, I guess that is just part of how I was raised. I was raised with the belief that life is short, there are those that like you and those that don't those that do I seek out friendship, those that don't I could careless about. That by the way is the 'touchy feely' stuff I was speaking of earlier. If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned. Now I have read the scriptures they are referring to and I think they have misunderstood the verse in question but, just as we have the right to think the way we want, they have the right to think the way they want.

JuJu: "What percentage of people have a negative response?"
Well, I don't have any hard statistics but I would say about 10% have had negative reactions and 70% positive. I know that leaves 20% out, well that goes in the can tell category. Some people that know I am gay I can't tell what they think. They don't seem to react at all, to me this would go in the positive category.

On a side note, it is not the negative I have a problem with. At least when someone says " I hates fags". I know where I stand. What I hate are the ones that find out from another acquaintance that you are gay and they have to go out of there way to tell me that "It's great that you are gay" or " I have no problem with gays, I just want you to know that" those people I have no time for. They are not saying for my benefit they are doing it either because they don't want to look like a bigot or they are trying to convince themselves that what they are saying is true.

JuJu: "And where do you live?"
Well when I first realized I was gay and started my first (and only) relationship I lived in Memphis, Tennessee and Now I live just outside of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. So maybe all the flaming queens just live here in South Florida. My parents live in Mississippi and the whole town (Harmontown; Population: 75) knows and they all can't wait to see me when I get home. (Part of this is I think that they all want to say they know a gay person) but, I would hardly say it was a negative reaction. If anything it is like a one up or a bragging right, “Yeah well I got to eat lunch with a gay guy”, while I wouldn’t say they are sincere it is a much more constructive way to deal with it than typing me to a fence and setting me on fire. I think it certainly shows people are trying to change, but you cannot expect it to disappear overnight. There was one other person that lived there that was gay and everyone was *highly* denfensive of him. Once my mom called to tell me how a tourist had stopped by (The town is on the egde of a very large lake) and called 'Big Mike' a fag. Two of the local men ended up in jail for both attacking the tourist at the same time. I tried to look up the article that ran in The Oxford Eagle (local paper), but I had no luck.

So much for keeping it short. :(