If it works for you fine and dandy, but I think you're stepping under an umbrella and claiming it stopped raining.
I just don't think you're doing what you think you're doing, and I'm sure an EEG would prove me right.

If you focus intently on something with full concentration like I talked about before, the time flies by and you block out all thoughts and inputs that don't concern what you're focused on. That's why you don't notice Mom walk in during an orgasm.

I can see it being a handy tool when you have too many things going on at once and want to concentrate your thoughts on just one. But if you could shut everything down it's like hiding in the bathroom with three kids waiting outside the door. When you come out your back where you started, and if you don't come out you're a vegetable.

I'm thinking on the page here so feel free to correct...


A lot of work has been done on that. We're talking about at least two different states. If I remember correctly, Tolle is focused more on the narrative in our heads. We don't suppress that voice, we acknowledge it, accept it, and stop playing with it. It's that obsessive play with unproductive thoughts where pain resides. I'd call it a meditative state that we carry into the active world. It is still raining but we don't obsess about it.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0319210631.htm

A new study suggests that nondirective meditation yields more marked changes in electrical brain wave activity associated with wakeful, relaxed attention than just resting without any specific mental technique.

The other state is flow, which is where Toad is when he is laying down that sweet bass line. This is a fully activated task focused brain.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...and-creativity

Technically, flow is defined as an “optimal state of consciousness where we feel our best and perform our best.” It’s also a strange state of consciousness. In flow, concentration becomes so laser-focused that everything else falls away. Action and awareness merge. Our sense of self and our sense of self consciousness completely disappear. Time dilates—meaning it slows down (like the freeze frame of a car crash) or speeds up (and five hours pass by in five minutes). And throughout, all aspects of performance are incredibly heightened—and that includes creative performance.

How this all works comes down to neurobiology. Flow is the product of profound changes in standard brain function. In the state, our brainwaves move from the fast-moving beta wave of normal waking consciousness down to the far slower borderline between alpha and theta waves. Alpha is associated with day-dreaming mode—when we can slip from thought to thought without much internal resistance. Theta, meanwhile, only shows up during REM or just before we fall asleep, in that hypnogogic gap where ideas combine in truly radical ways. Since creativity is always recombinatory—the product of novel information bumping into old thoughts to create something startling new—being able to slip between thoughts quickly and combine them wildly enhances creativity at a very fundamental level.

That's neat.

Bruce, maybe it was just a poor choice of analogy, but I'm not shielding myself at all. I'm just not mad that I'm wet.

I'm opening myself to the reality and surrendering to it. If I can do something, I'll do it. If I can't, I'll accept it. Like Kung fu. You don't resist the opponent's attack, you yield to it and use his energy against him.

It also may be just that you are thinking that I'm talking about walking around all day in a daze. I'm not. For the vast majority of my day, I'm engaged in activity. I work. A lot. At those times, I'm giving my full attention to that task, that moment.

When I step outside for a smoke, I'm trying not to dwell on past or future. Or being mad about how fucking humid it is. Gah.

Yeah, that makes sense rather than taking random incoming you're working hard at keeping shit out.
That part I understand, I've had it happen to me many times. Evidently when it does I make faces, I've had people kid me about that.

I'm sure you're never in a daze at work, you're too good at what you do not to be on top of it.
The only thing I was questioning is the process, it's not magic something is actually going on and I think Griff got a handle on it.

When somebody tells me something happens I immediately want to know how/why. That's how I roll, fat people always roll ya know. :blush:

you read about the stages of grief. they lead to acceptance. but each step is some form of resistance to the reality. bargaining, denial, anger, etc. all are resistance.


this just gets ME to the end of the process without spending a lot of time in the other stages. I did do those things for about 2 weeks until I remembered...or was ready to stop suffering.... to pick the book up again.

Part 2 is up

That last question and answer... At about 33 min.

He does a pretty good job summarizing the idea of awakening. And the hand trick is new to me. I found that illuminating. All that inner body awareness stuff was a little weird to me the first few times I read this book (s). But now I kind of get that more.

And then it seemed he wrapped it up a sentence or two short of giving us the meaning of life. I've heard that answer in another Q&A and it rang true. Ready? Meaning of life ahead.

Set up :
We are part of the universe. Every element consisting of 30 billion year old carbon. You've heard that before. The universe was very simple at the beginning. Then bang. Since that point, it has been increasing in complexity. The alpha is the singularity of the pre bang and the omega lies in ultimate complexity. He doesn't say any of that, but I've read it elsewhere and agree.

Our purpose, as sentient brings is to bear witness to the existence. I think, therefore I am.

Which is widely accepted as a truth. I think it's a little off... Might be better as, I am aware, therefore I am. You don't need to think to be aware. You do need to be aware to think.

But yeah, the universe wants to be aware of itself. We are it's proof that it exists. That's why we are alive.

Could be a translation issue. A Frenchman, trying to articulate himself in Latin, getting translated into English. According to my vast research reading the first two paragraphs of the wikipedia entry on this, he also wrote "we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt...."

Yes

It's been a long time since PHI 101 but "I think, therefore I am" is at a base level trying to establish a proof that there is truth and that we exist. This is not just a dream world and we can make sense of it. Something like that

Rubin's next move should be bringing together Tolle and Peterson. I wager that will happen and it will be spectacular.

That would be interesting. I'd never heard of Jordan Peterson. I spent some time watching him on a panel in Australia and he seemed pretty sharp. I've just downloaded his 12 rules book, and am listening to his overture.

First impression is that he is a very sophisticated thinker. Complexity of thought espousing simplicity of living. Whereas Tolle espouses minimal thought to create inner calm and thereby simple living... They may agree on the goal, but diverge in method. 12 rules vs 1 rule.

I'll say more once I know Peterson better.

Whew. Listening to a clinical psychologist talk about the hierarchy of lobsters and the status counter in our brain stems is exhausting.

I feel like I'm rowing upstream.

This could have been the answer to a different question. Elderly folks have a certain peace about them. Have you noticed? Not all of them. Some are nutty in one way or another, but most.

I'm thinking maybe they get that from going through the loss of the self esteem they derived from the abilities or attributes that turned out to be impermanent. So maybe once you are forced to stop identifying with your ego, you can calm the fuck down some. If I could have the wisdom of the elderly while I'm still vital, I'd sign up for that.

I liked the end where he says going through suffering is an easier way of discovering this kind of thing than it is if things are rolling along smoothly.

That's because we can kill you, a life sentence is a joke. :mg:

I kind of thought it was because you've realized that it's all bullshit at the end of the day. All these thoughts we think. Mental constructs and opinions. What's really left after that is just being.

Old people reflect on what used to was, and glow with good memories or rage against the injustice of what has been lost.

The guy is large, he is going across a ton of topics... he may be best in video form

From just before 2 minutes in, he presents his most fundamental ideas, which is where he's most Tolle-esque

He presents the yin/yang as chaos/order, and meaning as the place where both exist. "Meaning is not a rational phenomenon. We detect it without being, not with our intellect... which it should guide, rather than follow."

The slides are a little distracting IMO... he's become a much better speaker since this

I think the slides round out his meaning quite effectively. Particularly the one where he instructs you to watch yourself as though you don't know much about you.

It may take me some time to get through his book, but I will. It's counterpoint to the simplicity of tolle, so I think it's important that I do. Tolle is easy. Almost too easy. Can it be that simple? In times of crisis, I think yes. But in 6 months when this crisis fades, will it still speak to me? History suggests no. I got on with my life after the divorce had washed over me and I forgot to practice awareness in the moment.

Perhaps..... Um. Maybe I need to train the ego AND the Id to get along.

The part of the brain that reacts when we think about friends also reacts when we think about ourselves. The part of the brain that reacts when we think about strangers reacts when we think about our future selves. We see our future selves more as strangers because it's difficult for us to imagine ourselves 10, 20, 30 years from now due to all the variables we know can exist.

So (a needle pulling thread), imagining future you can help you to watch yourself as though you don't know much about you now. The power of future, now.

Ironic isn't it⸮

Future me is my higher power. I want to make him proud.

A Man Said to the Universe
By Stephen Crane (1871-1900)

A man said to the universe:
“Sir, I exist!”
“However,” replied the universe,
“The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.”

Neil deGrasse Tyson says something very similar.

I'm on rule 4.

Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today.

Right now he's discussing past and future. Says almost in passing that the present moment is eternally flawed. That without that assumption, we would never strive to improve. In a previous chapter, he talked about people at the bottom living in the moment out of laziness and contentment with their lousy lot in life... People more likely to indulge in momentary relief of drugs and alcohol because they're not concerned with the consequence, just the immediate relief from their pain.

Sounds like good argument against Tolle's Now.

I think the balance comes when you can get your hands around Tolle's technique, and have the ability to be self aware on the level below all this psychology and ego constructed tendency to win or lose at life, but give the appropriate attention to the real world concerns Peterson is trying to provide guidance for.

Both espouse seeing yourself objectively. Tolle strips it all away by constantly reminding you that the real you is not the mentally constructed collection of life experience, trauma, or kind upbringing, but rather the container that holds it. This makes all the intricate detailed reasoning about why we think like we do irrelevant.

However, most of us will not be motivated to attempt to disassociate with it unless we experience some kind of intense suffering. No sense fleeing the building if it's not on fire.

Even when you do have a fire and need to flee, the fire eventually burns itself out, or is extinguished by your awareness and presence. And then you go back to identifying with this slightly better equipped version of your Self, which now knows how to handle loss or grief or anger or resentment.... But, unless you're going to drop out of your life and spend your days as a guru teaching others to find themselves, you need to moderate the time you spend with an empty head just as you need to watch your thoughts.

Just being aware that your mind is a tool, not who you are.... Really knowing that, which isn't easy or natural feeling... You have to keep a constant watch on your reactions to things.... But just knowing that prevents your mind from using you instead of you using your mind.

I really would like to see these two converse.

Yessir! Peterson is all about Jung, which is all about that last bit - it's "shadow integration" which is where you learn to see your unconscious inner self and learn to integrate it, work with it, instead of having it control you. I think they would be in agreement about all that.

It would be a great conversation. I think it will happen, now that Tolle is approaching the circle where these talks are taking place.

~

I have been thinking hard about rule 2 "Treat Yourself Like Someone You Are Responsible For Helping", because I do see all the people in my life treating themselves terribly, and I have seen myself treat myself terribly, and I want to understand why. I don't feel like the chapter has answered this for me. My friend Judi not treating her cancer. My J avoiding treating her sleep apnea - she's fallen asleep at the wheel, twice that I know of. My friends who drink every single day. My friend Thom who allowed his mother's death to give himself nothing but self-inflicted pain for two years. Ripley and all the suicidal people. And me, allowing myself to fall down various self-destructive rabbit holes. Why do we hate ourselves so much? Nobody in our lives wants us to do that.

UT, this response is tailored for you:

Sometimes the experts don't quite give us what we're looking for. It's not for lack of trying, it's just that they may lack the personal experience necessary to address everything that relates. There's a whole other world out there; however, comprised of advanced amateurs who have the experience you're looking for and, like yourself, have sought out the experts' frameworks to put it in. I found one that may have done some of the legwork for you.

I think you'll at least find the writing style entertaining and hopefully its content close to what you're looking for. An enticement:

A convenience link to an entertaining self-description page by the author. It sounds like you may have some traits in common: About

It's broader than just me man. The question at hand is one the guy states, himself:

"self-hatred is just part of the human condition"

Why is that the case? There are a lot of behaviors built in to humans. Why is there both a wild instinct for self-preservation and a general tendency for most of us to hold ourselves in contempt?

"I desperately want to live. But I do not deserve to." Wha?

Long term (evolution) vs short term (conditioning) conflicts exist because we're social animals. We're being influenced by others who may be enhancing; or, degrading the built in behaviors that give us the flexibility to succeed both in situations requiring instinctive behavior and those requiring self-reflection. That balance can become skewed. That's the human condition. There are ways to restore that balance in ourselves individually when the situations and/or social groups we're in aren't doing it for us.

It doesn't really matter why. Knowing why isn't going to help you fix it. So what will?

Forgive yourself. You did those things because that's the amount of self awareness you had in that moment.

Now your eyes are open more. You see what you target. Fix it. Take responsibility for it.

That's both of them telling you that.

Not looking to fix me, curious about why that is the human condition. How humanity actually works, what is at the root of us.

I'm looking to fix me

There is Nothing Wrong with you.

there's nothing wrong with me. There are things wrong with my habits and my body. I'm 325 lbs, and smoke cigarettes. I have to take pills daily to manage my blood pressure and cholesterol. That's stupid and dangerous. I also drink more than is healthy. I very rarely get drunk, but I drink at least 2 beers a day. 6 or 7 on a weekend night. these things are fixable. I am working on them. I have a plan, and I'm working with my full attention on this current step. I'm going to get down to 300lbs, then quit smoking and start cardio. but right now, each day, I'm monitoring intake of calories and trying to stay in ketosis.


but yeah, nothing wrong... just the present situation.

Someone put the whole book up on youtube.






Got 7 hours to kill? it'll be worth it.

"self-hatred is just part of the human condition"
 

Why?

I don't hate me. I'm actually rather fond of me.

Is self-hatred really a fixture of the human condition, or is it just a bill of goods some folks got hoodwinked into accepting?

Simply: if you get folks to be profoundly dissatisfied, existentially dissatisfied, then you can sell 'em stuff, solutions, cure-alls, philosophies, ideologies, and on and on.

That quote was preceded by:

It was followed by:

The meaning of the word hatred, in context, runs the gamut from a strong dislike of something to the worst possible feeling. It's not just a I don't deserve to live hatred. It doesn't have to be a continuous state. It can be temporary and have occurred at anytime during one's life.

The inherent ability to judge oneself, even harshly, is important to our adaptability between evolutionary changes. It's not all just built-in though. There are external influences that modify our views for better; or, for worse.

The Rule Two chapter starts by pointing out that, if prescribed medication, only 2/3rds of people will fill it; of the rest, only half will take it correctly. The most common reason for failure in kidney transplants is the patient doesn't take the anti-rejection medication.

But if we're given a prescription for our dog or cat, we are much more likely to fill it and administer it correctly.

I hate myself for not catchin' all that stuff earlier.

How many of you are there?

On Peterson again...

I enjoyed the chapter on child rearing. Found that our opinions on it align. I recall a day when Spencer was 4 or 5. He had done something mean to his sister. I was not pleased. I swatted his butt. He turned to me, startled, asked, "was that a real one?". "Yesss" I growled.

Tears. I thought... He gets it. That's good dadding. Didn't hurt him at all, but he didn't want to disappoint or anger me. He'll make it.

Now on chapter 7 Jordan is discussing sacrifice and delayed gratification. The concept that the larger the sacrifice you make, the greater the reward. What's the ultimate sacrifice? Yourself? A child? Talks about Abraham and Isaac, Socrates. Comes quite close to the step that would connect this to Tolles work.

I thought as I listened:
He is saying in simplified terms that if you are willing to sacrifice yourself, you can gain entry to heaven. I hear Tolle say, 'Yourself' is your egoic, mind identified 'Me'. Heaven is inner peace or enlightenment. Just being free of that identification and finding the calm still place where the 'I' resides is the doorway to that inner peace.

So can you give up your identity? Should you?

Here again, I'm struck by the contrast of the simplicity of Tolle's... angle?... and the complexity of most 'thinkers'. They are both essentially trying to assist you end Suffering. Tolle, through eliminating resistance, Peterson, through rules and modes of conduct that will generate optimal situations. I'm picturing these deep deep layered thought constructions Peterson takes us through as kind of a hole he's digging. Delving a lot into historical teaching and primordial instinctive impetus that drives us. He's trying to dig his way out the bottom of that hole by thinking more and more complex thoughts.

Tolle, by contrast, sees the thoughts weighing us down, causing us to sink into that hole. Simply letting go of the heavy thoughts will make you light enough to float to the top. The monkey could just release the treat, and he could get his hand out of the jar.

He gets real close to it again toward the end of the chapter. As I listen, it's about 20 minutes from the end of the audible audio book chapter 7. Talking about ideas. And to sacrifice your ideas allows you... The 'being' you to live on in freedom. Allow your ideas to die, so that you may live on...
I keep half expecting him to quote Tolle.

Losing weight is really hard for everyone.
Quitting smoking is easy. I smoked two packs a day, every day, for fifty years.
About ten years ago I decided to quit. I found a really easy way to do it, did it and kick myself for waiting so long.
Even describing how to do it is easy. Ask me and I'll tell you.

Stop buying them

Thing about losing weight is that you can't quit cold turkey.

...and bumming them.



I went to the store to get cigs (Winston Reds, what did/do you guys smoke?), and the woman said "That'll be $1.03."

The previous day they were 78 cents.

I told her no thanks. And I haven't bought another pack.

Well, one pack in jail. But I didn't smoke them, I sold 'em.:yelgreedy

Camel light. Although they're not allowed to call them light anymore. Blue.

Last 2 times I smoked Marlboro light /gold. Red when I first started. Winston's are dry and horrible. I'd go without first.

"what did/do you guys smoke?"
 

Largo or Four Aces or Smoker's Friendly tobacco + Gambler's or Smoker's Friendly King tubes = (by way of a Tops cigarette maker) fine, cheap, coffin nails.

Coffee & cigarettes: a way of life.

In chapter 9 he's talking about inner avatars. Describing them the way Tolle describes the ego. They want to live! They'll fight you. Thinking is hard. You have to be honest. You have to have internal dialogs. All that. Then he says the only thing harder than thinking is Not thinking.

I lolled.

Camels, then Marlboros for a few years, back to camels, then filtered Camels. After 57 years I quit because of shortness of breath but that turned out to be a heart problem and a pacemaker/defibrillator took care of that. But stayed off them for 4 years then back to Camel filters. Some people claim there's a woman to blame, but I know it's my own damn fault. After a year of $80 a week I switched to vaping, which is cleaner, loaded with poison(nicotine), and killing me cheaper, but not before replacing the battery in the heart box for $265,000.

Bottom line, quitting cold turkey (gave away 3/4 of a carton) was not a problem if there was a good reason.

Last night I was listening to Peterson read his book. Amanda came out and said, "is that Saul Goodman?"

I thought he was so familiar because he looks a lot like Neegan. But it's his voice! Jimmy Mc Gill. Bob Odenkirk. Yup.

And now as I listen, I'm picturing Saul in a garish suit, addressing a jury. Sheesh.

Finished this last night. He comes so close, but always veers away one sentence short of overlapping Tolle. Several times.

I wonder if he's aware of Tolle and discredits him, or he just never heard him speak.

He's far too absorbed in details and intricacy and history to see the forest for the trees.

He said in the final chapter that when all this reason collapses, you're left with the being that notices. This is the closest he got to the core of Tolle's point.

Still pretty good way to train your egoic mind if you can't find your being.

if you've seen Better Call Saul, or Breaking bad, you recognize the voice.

Kinda. At times.

I'ma have to read/watch more Tolle to more see what's up

He's a good teacher. I paid money to subscribe to his YouTube premium channel. Lots of Q&A there. He pauses and blinks after most questions. I heard him say once that when he's doing that, what he's doing internally is admitting to himself that he doesn't know the answer, and allowing his thinking mind to cease, making room for the answer to arise from being.

Sometimes it's a long long pause.

Does Tolle ever talk about purpose? Working out why we get out of bed in the morning?

His answer to that is typically that our purpose is to bring awareness to the universe. See meaning of life post above.

But he does occasionally say that presence doesn't interfere with ambition, it just makes it easier to be precise in your deeds.

If you're not basing your goals on misunderstood reality, you're more likely to achieve real success.

And misunderstood reality comes from too much past or future occluding your perception.

Paraphrasing from many videos I've seen here.