no, juju. it does not make them gullible. they need something in their life that you do not. good for you, good for them. you have what you need to make you happy. they have what they need to make them happy. you complain that christians lump you into categories and in the same breath lump me into the category of people responsible for you not being able to buy beer on sundays. im not happy about that either. but i buy my beer on saturday.

you insist that someone prove it to you. but i defy you to disprove it.

~james

and what's more... how much more abuse does a christian get than a mainstream, democrat loving, pro-abortion, christian-bashing liberal? i mean, it takes no free-thinking at ALL to follow the way of most free-wheeling media middleclass america. but it takes a lot of..well, moxie...to stand up and be counted when christians are objects of ridicule (not that we won't be laughing last).

I guess it just depends on what you value more: truth, or comfort?

In my opinion, sacrificing truth for comfort is a very poor decision. I'd go so far as to say it's <i>dumb</i>. That does not mean i'm saying people who do this are dumb. Some of them are very respectable and intelligent. I'm just saying that it's a very poor mental strategy.

exactly. you seek truth. thats a noble pursuit. i seek comfort. not so much for me, mind. i need to know my family is taken care of as best i know how. so at some point comfort becomes more important than truth. if its any consolation, i have absolutely no intention of ever forcing religion on my son. i want him to pursue truth as well. at least until he realizes that in his life, he needs something else. and that day may never come. all i ask is that when that time comes, he respect my decisions the way i respect his. i am well aware that my choices may not be the right ones. but they are my choices and i will stand responsible for them no matter what the consequences. you may think im deluding myself, and maybe i am. but in my life i have seen what i choose to believe is proof of a higher power.

~james

here i think youre getting it and then you have to go editing your post calling anyone who disagrees with you (despite your dislaimer) dumb. do you not realize that by saying that you are doing the same thing you hate so much? you pass judgement on people you dont even know, based only on opinion and with no basis in fact.

~james

I'd say the levels of criticism are about equal. What's your point? Liberals are not a majority and Christians aren't a minority.

Also, if you're suggesting that Christians are freethinkers, that's such a laugh! I'm sure you and Perth have thought out your beliefs, but the vast majority of Christians raise their kids to be Christian. Kids don't have the mental faculties to understand philosophy. So they just believe what they're told. These kinds of Christians are what i'd call <i>brainwashed</i>. That's not to say there aren't brainwashed liberals, but at least both camps have their own fair share.

Well, I like to think that i'm judging the decision itself, not the person. I don't write people off like that. Like I said, i'm not saying they're dumb. Just that the decision itself is. Hell, I make dumb decisions all the time. Doesn't make me a bad person.

i have nothing but respect for your opinion, i want to make sure you know that in case i have been rude. i just want to make sure you know that people have many different reasons for their beliefs, not just gullibility or weak-mindedness. what set me off was not so much your comments as it was the jesse ventura quote. its that lack of respect that i find intolerable. i dont expect anyone to agree with me, but i do expect people to respect the choices i make.

~james

IIRC, Ventura did a bit of back-pedaling later on the quote. I do agree with it to a degree. Organized religion can be a sham, and can be a crutch for weak-minded people. And it can encourage people to "go out and stick their noses in other people's business." But I don't think all of organized religion is that way, nor are all people who follow an organized religion weak-minded. Not to mention, not all religions are hell-bent on the evangelical tip.

I think the biggest problem with organized religion is not with the religion itself, but with the worshippers. If the faithful would just smoke a bowl and recognize the fact that religion and God are subjective, the world would be a much better place.

amen. the problem with christianity, as i see it, is that christians do not behave the way they claim to behave. to behave in a 'christlike' manner nowadays seems to mean 'say terrible things about people who disagree with you. treat people who think differently from you like shit. hate nonchristians, but pretend (poorly) that you really really care. and above all else, be smug'. if people truly behaved the way the christ of the bible behaved, we wouldnt have this problem. he was all about compassion and kindness. not once did he ever accuse or cast judgement.

~james

Dar, you and your buddy Christians who want to tell me about how rough it is for you because you are ridiculed, bashed, or repressed can...

...simply...

...Kiss My Big Fat White Ass.

You don't KNOW from ridicule. You don't KNOW from repression. And you don't KNOW from bashing. I really don't know how to put it any other way.

Here's an analysis of my search for god or whatever:

I'm offended by organized religions and congregations that play accounting games, are based on fear, couch hate in translations of scripture, claim to be "the chosen", proselytize, speak of love then damn "others", subordinate women, and are so focused on "the next world" they fuck up this one, or miss it altogether- the hidden or not so hidden hypocracies.

I appreciate religions that welcome, comfort, and support, inspire peace and celebrate human dignity, that are concerned with right now, and help people with no conversion payback in mind. I've personally never seen these elements consistently practiced in any organized congregation.

So I'm on my own with my spirituality and thats as it should be.

And as for "Moxie" to stand tall as self-righteous "we'll see who has the last laugh" self-proclaimed Christian? You're best left to your ridiculous, deluded competition.

Amen, Sista Warch (and Brotha Tony).

spirituality should be deeply personal. i dont agree with the idea that in order to be christian you have to beat your beliefs into others. this is where things like blue laws come from. this is where the ill will and hatred come from. im not interested in that. throughout my life, ive been told that actions speak louder than words. but then you have people like jerry "i hate everybody" falwell spitting the worst kind of venom. it doesnt matter if hes the nicest guy youve ever met when behind closed doors (though i seriously doubt that) what he says in public affects his 'cause' more than anything he does. the actions that really count are what you do when no one is looking.

i dont think anybody has gotten it right and i doubt they ever will. i dont attend church except for say christmas and easter. the last church i attended was left by the wayside when the pastor began using the pulpit to tell me who to vote for.

i dont generally like to talk about my beliefs and i really dont know why i spoke up in this thread in the first place. a lot of what has been said can apply to many religions. ive seen muslims persecuted since 9/11 just for being muslim. its the broad generalizations i find offensive. being spiritual is not a bad thing until you decide everyones beliefs must align with yours. that goes for some atheists ive met.

~james

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H.L. Mencken

And some people will tell you the truth: your wife is ugly.

The 'choice' made will be respected when those who associate themselves with Christianity and who seem to have considerable influence in US politics stop backing racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, murderous policies.

I don't believe that they are the ultimate image of Christianity, and I find it abhorrent that they have become the public face of American religion, the same way that I abhor that violent Muslims seem to have become the public face of Islam.

The day the last abortion doctor has been <a href="http://www.christiangallery.com/atrocity/aborts.html">shot or bombed</a>, the day <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A26554-2002Sep16&notFound=true">science</a> is not suppressed in favour of dogma, the day religion does not cause death and <a href="http://www.beliefnet.com/features/middle_east.html">suffering</a>, the day women are not mutilated, beaten, or killed because of supposedly religious reasons, the day that primitive people are aided in preventing death, rather than lectured and left to <a href="http://loper.org/~george/repchoice/2001/Aug/98.html">die</a>, that very same day, the voices of dissent will fall silent, and Christianity (and religion in general) will be accepted as the voice of progress, rather than oppression.

Until then, I - as a Christian - am ashamed to be associated with people who actively pervert everything that is good and commendable about the Judeo-Christian religion, and organized religion in general. Abandon dogma, whether it is Judeo-Christian, Muslim, or otherwise. Western civilization has moved towards progress, enlightenment, and tolerance - dogma is a throwback to an age we fought so very hard to leave behind.

X.

PS: "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen." (Falwell on 9/11; his later apology was a transparent sham)

I agree...kinda
 

A good friend of mine, a satanist, once told me that true satanists worship satan like christians worship god - that means no sacrifices, no blood rites, no pacts, no sexual relations during service, no inverted pentacles or crosses...none of that.

In the same tack, there are the "shock-factor" satanists who dress goth (not dissing any non-satanic goths who might be reading, btw), pervert the religious symbols of non-satanic religions like wicca and christianity, read the bible backwards and do everything else in reverse because "satan is the opposite of god, right?"

These have become the face of not only satanists as a sect, but also most of the pagan religions. You tell someone "I'm a witch" and they automaticly picture you standing next to a slain infant drinking the blood from a chalice while people have sex at your feet and snakes slither all around them.

Where did this image come from? That's one reason I chose to walk away from the christian path - I am not a satanist, real or otherwise, but I will never "return to christ's fold" Christianity has painted a face on anyone who doesn't follow christ and then bitch and moan when people point that and other mistakes out to them. The last witch to be burned for witchcraft was in 1952 - only 50 years ago for crying out loud.

The killings may have ended, but the lessons of the Mallus* remain - any who practice witchcraft are in league with satan and must be damned for their crimes. Get real. The pagan religions pre-date christianity by 2000 years... Just because a religion is "brand new" and "improved" doesn't make it right.

On a similar note, speaking of people from one religion perverting the practices of another, biblical scholors have shown that christ was born in mid-May...not december - why was his birthday moved to cover the pagan holiday of Yule, the trees that the druids brought in from the cold and decorated suddenly represent the wood of the cross, and many other pagan holidays suddenly given a christian twist?

I have read the bible - nowhere in the Easter scene does it mention ducks, eggs, chicks, and bunnies (all pagan symbols of fertility). Just all seems rather...convienent.

"But pagans worship satan" - yes, this is the pagan face... <shrug>

* 1486 The Mallus Maleicarum (The Witches Hammer) written by Kramer, and Sprenger.

i'm not saying it's rough or not rough...i can certainly stand up under bashing or ridicule... but that doesn't happen often. (mostly around juju.)

i know EVERYONE has bashing... blacks, jews, arabs, irish, italians, smart people, dumb people, fat people, thin people, wasps, new yorkers, frenchmen, swiss, german..maybe not swiss, those australians who stick their hands up croc bums..everyone.

i have LOTS of buddies, so don't bother lumping me anywhere. and i'm in lots of those bashed groups, so don't bother lumping me there, either.

i forget what i was going to say..oh yeah, forgetful people. they bash us, too.

here's the way i live:

i am a 34 year old mother of one. i struggle with money, don't clean my house enough, though i know i should, don't go to church anymore though i know i ought to...don't cook dinner for my husband enough. sometimes i sneak a game of solitare at work, sometimes i work hard. i'm opinionated, and not often right, and apologize most of the time when i should, but not all of the time. sometimes i'm careful and sometimes i'm not. sometimes i'm narrowminded, and sometimes arrogant, and sometimes openminded and caring....i get bashed, and sometimes i do the bashing...in short, mostly like everybody else.


dar

Re: I agree...kinda
 

Um...the content aside, wouldn't a better translation of "Maleicarum" be "Evildoer's" rather than "witches'"?

Sounds like you live by carrying around a lot of frustration and guilt about what "should" be, but aint. Relax, put down your bashing tool and step away...

You make it sound like washing powder "now with twice the salvation!(tm)"

Very, very true. Few months ago a long time friend of mine (extremely bright, duxed her school, now doing arts-law) convinced me to come along with her to her church youth group thing...well. There are about 3-4 people on her level, extremely articulate, intelligent rational thinkers. The rest were the most depressing bunch of mindless drones i've ever been unlucky enough to come across. My friend has since left the church (and is in a kind of religious limbo) but damn..that was scary. I got the impression from various group discussion they couldn't form a rational argument between them without some serious prompting.

comments 1 - my dad was a raving drunk alchoholic, so he didn't brainwash me at all...i came to Christ as a rational, intelligent, free-thinking adult.

second of all.. the children comment stands for most any religion or philosophy....parents with manners teach their kids manners. parents who speak english teach their children to speak english. catholics, pagans, agnostics, christians, chicken-sacrificers, snake dancers...teach their children what they know. it's an odd and unthinkable system, that. most people don't call that kind of thing brainwashing, they call it "raising kids."

it's strange...i try and try to teach my kid arabic, just so she isn't brainwashed into being an american...you know, free to make her own choices...of course, i don't know arabic.. so it's just plain hard to do. i'm still trying though...i want to live up to your standards.

Of course. That's why you're one of the good ones. Most of them are just brainwashed, though. The ones i've met, anyway.

Why is it I usually only meet the insane ones? People are trying to say that they're not all insane, yet 90% of the ones i've met are deeply insane. How can this be? Am I some sort of fundamentalist magnet?

I understand this. I know it's not some devious plan, it just seems like the natural thing to do. I still believe that it's very, very bad, though. It's kind of the same principle as raising your kids to hate blacks, or to believe that the moon is made of cheese. It may seems like the thing to do at the time, but it still negatively affects the person's rationality.

because 90% of them _are_ insane. :)

~james

and that sums up the kid-raising philosophy... you start out thinking having kids is insane, it will wreck your life..then you think it's the reasonable, expected thing to do. then you spend the rest of your life wondering if what you teach them..anything..isn't gonna put them into therapy forever.

me for instance...yesterday, i chased my toddler around with a nail studded baseball bat because she was crying since she was hungry. i beat her for an hour, then buried her in the backyard up to her neck. while i was reading and sipping iced tea, tossing her bits of peach skin, i started to wonder if it was gonna affect her later on in life.

see? one moment of ah..... and the rest of your life in ehhh???

Are you being sarcastic?

which?

You know, i've always admired your compelling way with words. :)

Funk Religion-
 

Religion is for cavemen, and funk paganism too. It isn't paganism if there is no anti-semetic ritual involved, it's just being human. Funk ignorance and destroy all issues pertaining religion period. No man or woman can prevent life from going on for all of us forever, and that is a mighty long time to never have learned to chill lightly and to make the most of everything available. Not that I don't feel like screaming about the things that are out of my control, but the world was never intended to be perfect. You have to work for what you want in life, and to me a positive attitude is most important in achieving those unique goals you set for yourself while others laugh at you and not with you.

Re: Funk Religion-
 

juju! warm up the tub and fetch me my razor blades!

Re: Re: Funk Religion-
 

Is this some sort of caveman ritual?

Wowie-
 

Looks like I'm not the only one who knocks a few back before retiring. Sure wish I could take credit for that one, in case you were wondering. No offense, I thought that was morbidly hilarious and actually that reminds me of something I was going to say something on one thread or another that occured to me at work last night. Rather peculiar coinscidence indeed, I think I'll just say it and get it over with. Pubic hair was for cavemen and women too and I hope that my next date is someone who is of the same mind and opinion. There, I feel better now that I got that off my chest. Now I can shave and go play with myself:)

appropiate?

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/18/05434/162
worth a look.