And were really good at planning diabolical revenges. :lol2:

today's epiphany: If she's not out there somewhere beating herself up trying to sort things out, then there's probably nothing to save.

It's really hard for my engineer's brain to not be actively working to solve a problem, but I'm still giving her her space. I think on friday I might send her a text along the lines of "Let me know when or if you're ready to talk"

Might not be the best idea, but it gives me something concrete as a plan for the time being.

"I can't marry you, and we shouldn't see each other anymore."

go out with someone else this weekend

lumberjim: think what you may, but I didn't just spend months of soul-searching getting to the point I did to say "Oh, right. Shun me. Perfect meaningless fling opportunity for me now. Thanks."

i did not say go get a hooker.

i said get some perspective.


whatever.

Don't text......... jeeze

if she won't talk to you, at least write. Show some labor, some effort.

(also harder to hit "delete" on....) ;)

someone else could be a mate rather than a fling....

A funny thing that seems to be constant in times of relationship distress. There's always somebody ready to tell you you're doing it wrong. (Or maybe I'm just paying closer attention.)

My advice would be not to jump into dating right away. Give yourself time to mourn.

sorry, I guess I came off a little harsh there.

..but when diving back in (to that relationship), do take the time to show that you mean it/care.

p.s. fwiw, I'm a wife..... (of 15 years today)

regardless of what you're talking about, people will tel you you're doing it wrong. it's the flip side of the coin that is...people that ask for advice and then argue with you for your efforts.

in the end, you let the opinions of others run through your filters and keep what feels true, whilst discarding the chaff.

hope it works out well for you in the end, bub.

Congrats monster.

dis, I feel sorry for your situation, but I can't help thinking that if she's wishy washy about the relationship now, she probably always will be.

Send her a note or something, but from where I'm sitting, I'd say you're going to have to consider that maybe you have a lot more invested in this relationship than she does.

lumberjim: I found this place after my last relationship went tits-up, which went on a lot longer than this one did. My posting history isn't long, so it's easy to find the last narrative. I came back here because it was a safe place and all of you seem to be pretty free with the conversation. My apologies if I've stepped on some toes, but I'm a bit screwed up right now.

tiki: sound advice on the holding off on dating. I've made that decision before (Hey, I'm going to be a weird guy for a while....), I guess I'm just hoping for a little more closure before going down that road again.

I guess the long and short of it is that if the relationship isn't over, it's going to be screwed up for a while. If it is over, I'm going to be screwed up for a while.

For me, not trying to contact her is something near Herculean. But I already rushed things once, so now's my chance to give her some space. Not really my modus operandi.

OK, but make sure you hide the body well. ;)

I wish I could say that I didn't know what you mean, but I do know what you mean. You mentioned having a hard time not seeking solutions; I do the same thing, and sometimes I give into the overwhelming urge to try to make contact and force the reconnection of something that is, beyond my power, disconnected. You're not alone in that. Just try to hang in there from day to day and remind yourself that it gets better, it gets easier, eventually, even if you don't hear from her. If you do hear from her and it isn't what you want to hear, it might make it harder for a while, but even that will pass with enough time. If you need to talk abut it, there are people here who will listen and understand.

This is good - it does take two to make a relationship, you can't mend it on your own. How you contact her is up to you - it depends on what is usual, or what might make an impression, between the two of you.
Good luck.

I agree with Limey, it does take 2 to mend a relationship and part of me wonders where she has been (head space wise) since the return of your getaway.

Im all for the txt, its a tester of sorts and she will either ignore it (which I think would be a totally low act IMO) or it will start a conversation that needs to happen.

When Friday comes around, I believe you've given her enough time to sort through her thoughts andshe should be willing to open the lines of communication, even if its just with a *I want to talk, but Im not quite ready* type of thing.

Good luck, one day at a time.

I disagree that it would be "low". If you break it off with someone, and they text you wanting to talk about it, no response is perfectly within the bounds of courtesy. It may not be the response he desires, but she doesn't owe him that any more than my ex owes me repeated painful rehashings of why he doesn't want to be with me.

Repeated painful rehashes maybe not. Some kind of explanation, or closure contact is probably courteous to most people.

I don't know how much they've talked about it already, so only he can decide whether it's appropriate to make contact again.

So why's he askin' us?


:lol:

I would say that she does owe him an explanation. Whether that will be forthcoming in the short term is another matter.

I had to wait 5 years for one (particularly enlightening) explanation.

Assuming there was really no more to the dialogue than what he typed in the OP, then yes, I would say she should do him the basic human courtesy of explaining why she's ending the relationship. I didn't want to make that assumption, though, and he hasn't really said one way or the other.

Its possible that she has simply met someone else and that is the reason for the troubles in the relationship. If this was after only a month or two of dating, then simply disappearing is fine. But if it is after a year or so worth, then she is a pig for doing it this way.

Or, she may have realized that he is wrong for her, and have been struggling with it for a while. None of us know. We don't even know if they discussed it at all.

The additional dialogue was that she said I'd betrayed her for not giving her more time. That I'd gone back on my word that it was going to be a no-pressure weekend.

I took her literally when she said "I want to be surprised." I figured that meant it was ok from there on out.

Personally, and I'm sure there will be those disagree, I don't think I betrayed her. In my mind, betrayal suggests malice (or at least forthought.) I, on the other hand, am incompetent.

Speaking solely for myself, I would also have felt betrayed. Not because your intention was malicious, but because you did not respect the specific request for no pressure. A proposal is as high-pressure as you can go in that context.

Why did you take her at her word that she wanted to be surprised - a vague statement - but not take her at her word that she wanted a no-pressure weekend - a specific statement? Especially since she almost didn't go and was convinced to by your promise to make it a no-pressure weekend? You lured her into a trip she didn't want to take with a promise you had no intention of keeping.

If I were put in that position, I would feel that it was because you were placing your desires ahead of respect for me, and I would almost certainly have reacted the same way... accepted the engagement under the pressure of the moment, especially because of being a captive audience without the ability to just walk away from conflict and go home if it blew up into an emotional scene.

You put her in a very, very uncomfortable, awkward position, to be quite honest, even though she asked you not to. What was she to do? Turn you down and then... what? She could have no idea how you would react to rejection (unless she does have an idea - only you know) and she was trapped with you away from home. I suppose she could have packed her bags and found transportation somehow, depending on how far from a town you were. Safer to just say yes and play along until she's home, then break it off.

Cowardly? Maybe so. But as a woman, sometimes being a coward is a safer bet.

I don't think it's betrayal. Maybe not listening closely enough, but certainly not betrayal.

It's all fine to be ernest and sincere, but sometimes you've just got to bide your time as you're learning now.

Either way, you'd still be in the same position I think.

Her feelings and his intentions are two different things, IMO. I can understand her sense of betrayal, even though it was not his intention.

I also think that he really really needs to revisit his train of thought when he decided to tell her "no pressure" to get her to go on the trip, while planning the ultimate pressure possible... it was basically a deliberate lie designed to get her to be in a position she explicitly stated she did not want, and yet he seems convinced that it wasn't due to her saying she wanted to be surprised by what he had planned for the trip.

In that context, it seems obvious that the kind of "surprise" that would not conflict with the promise of no pressure would be something more along the lines of lobster dinner or a trip to the sea lion caves.

tiki: I'd be with you on the "taking her at her word and making a specific statement", except, well, she never said that. Yes, she said she had reservations about going, but it wasn't until after we got back that she said anything specific about the deal being it had to have been a no-pressure weekend.

tiki: it was no lie. I was freaking out the whole time deciding if I should or shouldn't go forward.

I was freaking out thinking that if I didn't ask soon my chance would be gone.

But do not try to tell me that my I had dishonesty in my heart. Confused, wrong idea, boneheaded. Yeah. But deliberate lie? Screw you.

Oh, ok... I misunderstood, then. I thought the promise of no pressure was what convinced her to go on the trip. If that wasn't agreed on ahead of time, sounds like she's just spinning out on stuff going on in her head.

You obviously did not consciously intend to lie, and you also obviously believe you did not lie. However, I came to the conclusion that you lied to her based on what you posted, as I had nothing else to go on.

You see, since you then went on to propose, it was not truthful when you told her this. That is the part that I cannot help but interpret as not honest, and I kind of suspect that is the part she also is perceiving as not honest.

If things didn't happen the way you stated they happened, perhaps there was no untruth, but according to your own telling, you misled her. That is the part I think you could stand to re-examine; your own thought processes and motives, and what made you believe it was a good idea, or even an acceptable one, to mislead her in order to get her in a position you wanted her in, but which she had been clear she did not want to be in.

Compare that with:
"Don't tell me about it, don't ask me about it, I want to be surprised...with a lobster dinner"

Or how about:
"I know you've said you need more time, but is this something we're going to communicate about, or am I just going to have to a take a chance at some point....on a trip to the sea lion caves?"

What I said was true at the time. And then I got blinded by a week of things feeling like the best of times. I tried to gauge how things were going with my question.

But you've decided I was being willfully deceptive. Clearly I had spent the entire week twirling my mustache and conceiving ways to trick her into marrying me (you know, provided that I ever untied her from the railroad tracks)

If it's any consolation I don't think anyone else much thinks you deceived her.

I hope you can find a good outcome for both of you though, regardless of what mistakes have been made by whom. :)

Moustache-twirling, railroad tracks ... I note that Dis-E still has some sense of humour about this.

There is hope for him.

Yeah, he'll be OK as soon as his balls drop back down. ;)

I'm just trying to explain that I can see how she would feel misled and betrayed. I don't think he consciously intended to mislead or betray her, I just think that maybe he was so focused on what he wanted that he (unconsciously) chose to interpret her statement about wanting to be surprised in a way that was favorable to what his intentions were.

I wasn't there for the conversation, so, again, I'm only basing it on what he has told us, and my advice is still that I think he could benefit from really examining what his thought processes were when he decided to go ahead with proposing in the face of what seems (to me) like a clear red light, in order to understand why and how he might deal better with a relationship with her or any other woman in the future.

Maybe, knowing what he knows about her and their relationship, to him "Don't tell me about it, don't ask me about it" is a clear green light. I wouldn't interpret it that way, but again, I'm not in that relationship and only have the small amount of context that he has posted.

As I have said as many times as possible, I am posting based on what my reactions, feelings, and thoughts would be if I were in a similar situation. Maybe it can provide some insight about why she is reacting the way she is, or maybe not. Take it as you will

Damn Tiki....let it go already.

I take it Pico is the guy who decides when topics are over and people have to stop being interested in them?

Thanks Pico, it's a good thing they found a special job for a special person like you.

And its a good thing that highly aggressive neurotics like you can come here to get their sensitive egos in a defensive twist.

Oooh look, another name-caller! It's like an epidemic.

I'm not as sensitive as you like to pretend I am, but if it makes you feel good thinking that I'm actually upset and not just a fast typist, go ahead and masturbate over it. :)

Don't forget to put on clean socks.

so umm yeah.
I just reread the string twice because the this was..confusing. what I gained from doing this is that the situation..is confusing.

I'm not trying to sound obtuse here but rather make a point:

I get the feeling this woman does not know what she wants so she is sending confusing messages. she is clearly still interested on some level or she would not have gone away with you, you would not have been in a situation that allowed you to propose, etc..but this is actually, at the current moment somewhat irrelevant it seems to me. this only establishes you are in a relationship and not a stalker

one thing I've learned in relationships is to listen to what people say AND do and SAY and do..in other words, if they don't match, and you are getting mixed messages, it doesn't necessarily mean they want one thing or another or are covering it up, what it more likely means is that they don't know WHAT they want, and so they can't tell you

this also, by the way, means they can't give you what YOU WANT. the last thing in the world you want is to marry someone who is not sure or confused. being with her will probably make her more confused. and you more confused. if you are getting % points towards "I want to flee and don't even know if I want to go away with you" this is not a good sign for a workable relationship. at least not at the moment. even if some part of them feels the same way you do


and because she is confused she also probably is not yet clearly analyzing her feelings and there are probably levels of blame. levels of betrayal. and it really doesn't matter where this is your fault.

best thing you can do is back off. way off. until she has some idea what she wants and comes after you. or doesn't. which is to say: she may or may not owe you an explanation. that is also irrelevant to the relationship and merely a matter of justice in general. and anayway, you don't seem want an explanation. you want her or closure. she is in no place to give you either.
leave it.

Tiki, you post yourself in a corner constantly. Maybe being a fast typist isnt a good thing for you to be.

Maybe you should start a new thread about how much I suck, and you and Jim and Bruce can have a party in there.

Is her posting bothering you? Or are you standing up for disenchanted? I notice you're not taking issue with any of the *content* in her posts. Maybe you think he's heard enough? Why is this even an issue for you? If disenchanted can read or ignore Tiki's posts, surely you can too.

No. No. No. Just me being bitchy. Yup I could, and you could also ignore me if I dont...too.

YEAH...we could all ignore each other...wouldn't that be lovely.


pass that pillow?

Pico. Playing the "Who's a bigger bitch?" game might make me out to look bad, but it puts you in the same boat, so if you don't like me, you might want to reconsider whether you want to wedge yourself into the same category with that which you despise.

you're just itching aren't you? like a muscle cramp in your psyche. like a hemorrhoid on your soul.

{{carnival music}}
step right up folks, Tiki is taking all comers. See if you can last 3 minutes in the ring! The pugilists among you can't pass up this opportunity to test your metal against the "Island God of Grousing!"

There's only one rule, here folks....but only Tiki knows what that rule is, and she can change that rule at any time! Step right up!

If you can last just 3 minutes in the ring with her, you win a bunch of shitty comments from people like ........well. you know who, dontcha? if you can't......well....you win the same exact thing.

{{/carnival music}}

Logic? On MY internets? BLASPHEMY! Stone the heretic!

Must you say *everything* you think?

We all got it, the same one thought, the first twenty times you said it. Save some oxygen for the rest of us, ok?

i'M HOLDING MY BREATH AS I TYPE THE FOLLOWING:



"EAT A DICK, SIR!"

Tiki, I would probably like you in person, you have a lot of interests and seem to be a well-rounded open-minded person. I just havent liked the way you have talked to some people on this forum. It really is troll-like and aggressive. And so I poked you. As others have.

disenchanted-
I think you didn't do anything wrong on purpose. I agree with daff that you were probably getting mixed signals. Here's the thing tho, if your girl had agreed to go away for the weekend based on your promise of "no pressure," then she expected it to be "no pressure." When she told you "surprise me" she obviously didn't mean for you to do so that particular weekend. Or at least that seems obvious to me. You said the week leading up to the weekend was great, ya'll were having a marvelous time with each other. Probably due to the fact that you had promised that there would be "no pressure" that weekend. She felt secure that she wouldn't have to be answering such a heavy question and that allowed ya'll to relax and get along better. I'm saying all of this because although I know you listened to your heart, I don't believe you were truly listening to her. "Surprise me" does not mean "surprise me on the weekend we've already decided will not be the weekend."
If you do get back with her, leave all this behind you. When ya'll talk it out, take the blame. That might seem hard, because you seem to want to find fault with what she said. Its not what she said, but how you interpreted what she said. So don't bring it up. Say you made a mistake, you misunderstood and that you will try better to understand her wants. I don't think you have a chance to truly mend things otherwise.
I'm going off of what I know as a woman, and how I would feel about the situation. I know that I would kick you out the door so fast if you started blaming me.

I know you well enough to recognize that is meant as a term of endearment, or an insult, or just the thing you say when you can't think of anything else to say.

I know I have not endeared myself to you. No love lost there. And your ability to insult me is on par with the neighbor's dog barking--a content-free annoyance.

Which leaves only silence-filling, last-word having reflex. I get it. You are saying the same nothing over and over and over again. All I'm asking is that you just say it silently, please. If necessary, sit on your hands.

I must admit that I'm curious as to what message or non-message you see me repeating, V? In your words, what is it that I'm saying?