Nope. I inhaled.

And I still dont eat bullshit sandwiches like that suggested by Nirvana in the case of the IN law.

But when have you ever let the facts get in the way of a discussion.

Well Redux what part of that new proposed legislation do you feel is fair to a hobby breeder? The part where the sale of 5 dogs makes them a pet dealer? Large breed dogs frequently have double digit litters so effectively if some hobby breeders have one litter they are automatically a pet dealer? Everyone will have to get their pets from pet mills in the future because they are the only ones that will be able to afford to pay to have animals. Your rights are being taken away and you are looking in another direction. That is so high on the bullshit meter its off the chart!

The whole point is the proposed legislation is BS but you would rather dwell on an aspect that I got wrong. You said you are for ending pet mills and this legislation puts all hobby breeders out of business so you will have no choice if you want a pet but to get it at commercial breeding operations. Duplicity is your friend. :eyebrow:

This city council Manteca CA. is meeting today to propose the mandatory spaying and neutering of all dogs.

1. CC Waive the first reading by substitution of the title and introduce Ordinance No.
1434, an Ordinance of the City Council of the City of Manteca Amending
Sections 6.10.010 through 6.10.130 of Title 6 of the Manteca Municipal Code
Pertaining to the Spaying and Neutering of Dogs.

http://www.ci.manteca.ca.us/legis/agenda.pdf

Spay/Neuter is an important medical decision that should be made for each individual pet only after careful consultation with the pet's veterinarian, instead of mandated at a fixed age by the government.

Mandatory Spay/Neuter, when enacted in other locations including San Mateo County, California, and Santa Cruz County, California, and more recently the City of Los Angeles, California, has caused rates of animal shelter intakes, euthanasia rates, and animal control government costs to go up in relation to surrounding communities where Mandatory Spay/Neuter has not been enacted.

Mandatory Spay/Neuter, where enacted, has reduced compliance with pet licensing, and in certain area, has also reduced compliance with rabies vaccination requirements. Reduction in the percentage of pets vaccinated against rabies could have serious public health consequences.

Will the disparity in price be that much? I thought you said what the Why can't you pass the cost on to the consumer like every other business. Price was really not the issue when we were breeding, especially the Goldens. Isn't price in that market still a very low priority for the buyer?

So does overpopulation - they are trying to solve a problem (perceived or real) I don't know what a real solution is, but they are trying - I'll at least give them that.

So you would be ok with them [gov] coming over and putting a device on your car to limit your speed to 35 miles an hour? Maybe they will have one that makes it impossible for you to have water in your house any hotter than 55 degrees. The government is messing with your property, what you own, and if you give these rights away other rights will follow.

Most hobby breeders do not breed to sell pets to the public. They breed to improve the breed and to enjoy their hobby of showing. If the consumer has a choice to buy cheap imitation products they will spend less money for inferior dogs. Hobby breeders would have to move to avoid mandatory spay and neuter laws that are popping up all over. Say you are buying a really good pedigreed female to start showing and breeding. In my breed that means $2500. On top of that the law in Maine will make it $650 per intact female who could even afford to have pets unless you spay them and you cannot show a neutered animal in conformation? None of the cost mentioned above include health care or feeding. What would the cost of a puppy be? Shall hobby breeders be like milk producers and sell always at a loss?
There will be people selling illegally because of these laws and people will find them and get their cheap poorly bred dogs from them. This is already happening.

I should preface that not every puppy in the litter will be show worthy that is where the pets produced by hobby breeders can be available to the public. Hobby breeders in Maine would have to "gift" their extra puppies or "collect and hoard" the extra puppies they are not allowed to sell without extensive fees and licensing.

Nirvana, I havent time to go searching through the links, but at what age is the spaying supposed to occur?

Don't get all bent at me I was just asking a question. How does this relate to my question?

Not always. IIRC I brought this up pages ago. The market for high end purebreds is changing. Perhaps I am incorrect here, but I look at these dogs similar to a Maserati or a Ferrari.

Thats $650 per female breeding or female born? Which is it? What is the average litter size? If its 6 than the cost goes up about $110 per pup ... very nominal increase if $2500 per dog. Just trying to understand the numbers.

Those are all constants costs and have no bearing here - you have to pay for all that either way.

There will be more - I got that. Hard to calculate how many "more"

Why is a fee necessary for a hobby breeder? Let say a kennel in Maine has 10 intact females that is $650 per female that you have to pay the local government to have these dogs on top of what you paid to buy the dogs. [$6500.00]What part of how can anyone afford that are you missing? Most breeders are not selling the higher end dogs they retain them for breeding they sell one or two show and breeding quality puppies and the rest are the pets, in my breed pets are $450 and up that come from champion pedigrees. I do not place pets with papers for breeding. Sometimes I neuter them before they leave.
You are incorrect about the dog"market" people are buying mutts, "designer mutts" which have the potential to have twice as many problems as purebreds because they carry the genes for different breeds. It is PC now to "rescue" which makes people feel all philanthropic until they get little foo foo home and he is a monster. Ask Ellen. ;)
I have never had more than 2-3 intact females at any given time thats just me, but I will speak up for those who have a right to keep as many as they can care for in a humane manner otherwise I and pet owners are next on the list. It will be illegal to own animals all because people do not understand what is going on in their own state legislature.

For Dana; spaying is to occur at 6 months. I have two very tiny Chihuahuas 2lbs and I guess if I lived in a mandatory spay neuter area I would have to move rather then see if a vet would kill these two while performing a spay.

The government is trying to tell you what to do in your own home. Your civil rights are being taken away.

CM I don't think you understand that hobby breeding is not a commercial venture it is a "hobby", that means its costs money to do it, breaking even is a dream! The cost of supplies, veterinary care, dog shows, traveling can never be paid for by selling puppies. Lumping hobby breeders in with commercial kennels is wrong and will be the demise of quality purebred dogs and pet owners.

WHETHER IT WAS PER MOTHER OR PER PUP. I GOT IT NOW - THANKS
You brought up the $2500 number. Now you say the number is $450. Which is it $450 or $2500. OR is that now the range. I thought that was exceptionally high, We sold ours for $700-$750. So you would compare your dogs to, say an Acura versus a Yugo?

It seems more like a seating license when people buy season tickets for their football team.
I have seen plenty of health problems with purebreds as well. Yes they are better, but by no means immune. I've also seen many issues with their intellect and attitude due to constant breeding within the same lineage.

Oh, and who the hell is Ellen?

I bred the number one Chihuahua being shown in this country in 2000. She won Best In Show at an all breed event, 1 of only 5 long coats females in our breed to have ever won BIS and she won the breed at Westminster. I can ask what I want for puppies I just do not happen to breed very many, I place less than 3 puppies a year.. I would still only ask $450-$850 for pets.

The term "pet" means to a hobby breeder a dog that cannot be shown and should not be bred because it has a minor flaw such as dentition problem, shoulder placement, nose color etc.

From a good show breeder you can expect to pay $2500 for a show breeding dog. [ my breed]They will expect you to show them and just laying out the money will not guarantee you the dog they have a screening process and some will want to co own until the dog is a Champion..

Ellen Degeneres and Oprah got bad deals when they bought dogs from rescue.

Wow congrats Nirvana, that was a remarkable achievement by you!

A lot of people say they've spent time with a world-class bitch but you really have!

Well thanks UT! I see a world class Bitch every time I look in the mirror ;)

IMO - The dogs got a bad deal too.

Congrats on the championship.

Thanks CM :) I am not a bragging type of person I only wanted to qualify my comments.

I dunno if the dogs got a bad deal, they had wealthy owners willing to give them everything, its not their fault the one died nor is their fault that the other dog was not a good match for the owner.
Just because someone calls themselves a dog rescue(r) doesn't mean they know what they are doing.

Nirvana, I read that really small dogs are known to have complications while giving birth. There are numerous things that can go wrong, and often end in giving the mom a c-section. Do you think c-sections are less risky to a dog's health than the spay procedure?

Since I have assisted in more than 50 [guess]of both surgeries I would say they have the same risks, the biggest being lack of skill on the part of the surgeon. The worst complication I have ever had was from a spay. The bitch almost died. I have never had a complication in a c section that ended in the death of the mother. [knock on wood] I have a very skilled veterinarian and my dogs are in their peak of health when they are bred.

I didn't mean to imply breeders were responsible for irresponsible pet owners. I did mean to imply that not all breeders are good, and that there are too many animals being put down because of overbreeding, whether by breeders, or by people not spaying/neutering their animals and keeping them fenced in, or by people dumping animals they don't want. It just makes me very sad. If I had a lot of land and money, I would try to give some of them a place to live.

If you have an animal and you aren't planning on breeding it, why wouldn't you spay/neuter it?

I support every single thing listed on that link. In California, the people get to vote on issues like this. I know, I lived there for 10 years, and I voted on the horse meat issue. California is a very pet-oriented state, and the people there will probably vote to protect animals.

In addition, the link you provided to the legislation, it seemed pretty reasonable to me.

So, ahh, did Obama get a dog yet?

What the hell is a "hobby" breeder? :eyebrow:

Where do you think hobby horses come from?

Because there are medical arguments against it. There are also 'moral' arguments against it. There is also the feeling of discomfort at ripping away the dog's reproductive organs.

Personally I wish we'd had Pilau done. I was persuaded out of it by my then partner and my brother. My Brother has absolutely insisted that his bitch, Amber, stays intact.

Spaying and neutering isn't the only way to prevent unwanted canine pregnancy...you can, y'know, not let your dog roam?

I asked earlier about the age at which the legislation mentioned, expects dogs to be neutered or spayed. I asked because there is a cultural divide between Americasn vets and British vets as to when the appropriate age wold be. As far as I know, American vets go a little earlier than British vets.

You dated your brother???

You seem to lack reading skills SP

Spay/Neuter is an important medical decision that should be made for each individual pet only after careful consultation with the pet's veterinarian, instead of mandated at a fixed age by the government.

2 lb dogs are sterile? I honestly don't know.

The people in Los Angeles did not vote on that issue their representatives did and I think you will see a change in representatives because of their actions.

How are animals being protected when neutering is mandatory? Many of the people that have lower incomes will be dumping their animals because they cannot afford the procedures or the fines for not having the neutering done. This will cost the city of Los Angeles more money and more dogs will be euthanized. I am sure when the tax rates go up to cover the cost of that fiasco some of the people are not going to think it was reasonable.

No they are too small for surgery to be done safely. So I have a choice maybe a dead dog or a live intact dog. Guess I choose live intact dog. :)

I do not have this choice or the right if I lived in Los Angeles. Many other people with other problems that cannot put their pet thru a surgery in Los Angeles do not have the right to choose. Your rights are being taken away little by little.

From an animal rights perspective, and no I'm not PETA, it seems to me to be cruel to have designer dogs beget designer dogs that are ill-equipped for a birthing process, knowing full well surgery is probably doing to have to be done. You say spaying is more dangerous...I don't think that makes sense.

However, the initial point of this thread, if I understood correctly, was that people who think they are "rescuing" dogs may be getting a dog that isn't A-Number One Top of the Chop Dog, and isn't that too up to the family and the vet? Somehow, they have failed miserably in doing good?

For instance, you imply that they may have been abused, and inclined to meanness. What about an entire breed in which everything I read about it is their poor temperment, that is borne to that specific breed?

Many of us will love our critters, flaws and all, just as we love our flawed humans.

Amen.

Well you cannot believe everything you read , experience outweighs speculation. A designer dog is the cross breeding of two different breeds to get a "special dog" a designer created mutt, so I am not sure what you mean by your statement on designer dogs.

Rescued dogs generally come from pet mills that went under or were raided for abusive care. These are dogs that have lived their entire life as breeding machines usually in confinement. A situation that I believe is not good for raising dogs. Some are permanently damaged mentally from that type of situation. Rarer breeds like the Portuguese Water Dogs are not going to be in rescue situations because they are not an easy breed to get or any easy breed to market by commercial pet millers. I never said they were inclined towards meanness some are just cage crazy or so shy if you pick them up they crap down the front of your shirt. Not really a dog suited for a family with children. {some rescue dogs}

People trained in animal husbandry learn selective breeding. Ethical breeders would select against traits that they find undesirable. I prefer free whelping dogs but sometimes that doesn't happen. That's why you prepare in the beginning by finding the best veterinary care available to you. I have cows and one would not expect that they would need a c section but every once in awhile that baby is not coming out. :) Rather than have the mother and the baby die by the miracle of modern veterinary medicine c sections are available.

What makes the surgery dangerous is the anesthetic and dogs die every day from dental cleanings, shall we not clean teeth?

This thread is not about dogs that are well bred its about dogs that are raised correctly in an environment where the breeder has taken the time to socialize them so they are suitable as a family pet. There is a critical time period in a puppy's life where this has to take place [4-12 weeks] and commercial kennels are only interested in weaning puppies and getting them out the door. Their human contact is limited. That does not mean they have to have 30 champions in their pedigree or have a pedigree at all to achieve this...I am not a dog snob I have had my fair share of JSU's and I love them just as much as my purebred dogs. :)

In Defense of Animals is seeking a donation of $1 with every purchase made on eBay.

Most people would probably react that this "a great way to help animals and they've made it so easy I'll do it."

The vast majority of donors would not realize this is a hard-core animal rights organization (on par with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) and they would send that buck without checking what it was really going to be used for.

From http://www.idausa.org/

"It is the policy of In Defense of Animals to no longer use language that accepts the current concept of animals as property, commodities and/or things. Rather than refer to ourselves or others as "owners" of animals we share our
lives with, we now refer to ourselves and others as "guardians" of our animal friends and to animals as "he" or "she" rather than "it."

The president of "In Defense of Animals," Dr. Elliott Katz, said in 1997: " It is time we demand an end to the misguided and abusive concept of animal ownership. The first step on this long, but just, road would be ending the concept of pet ownership."

Please let your friends and family know In Defense of Animals is an anti-pet organization. If they want to help animals, they can make a donation to a local no-kill shelter, to breed rescue, or to an organization fighting for pet owners' rights. Give them the name of a group you support, or help them find one worthy of their contribution. If you or a family member are eBay enthusiasts, you could counter the IDA campaign by keeping track of your purchases (or sales) and donating a small percentage of your monthly total to an organization that actually does something FOR pets and our right to have them.

Lemme think this thru a sec.
Currently animals are YOUR property. YOU are upset that because of this the gov't is proposing to tax you or whatever as a breeder. This organization is promoting an end to animal ownership. The gov't won't be able to tax you since you no longer legally own them.
Why aren't you supporting this?

What's wrong with horse meat? It's pretty tasty, and leaner than beef.

None of this legislation in my state directly affects me I don't breed enough dogs. The whole point is that a minority with money wants a meatless, pet less society and people like you are going to bend over and grab your ankles while they are doing it. ;)

Oh thanks for the insult - I appreciate that.

Well you are welcome since you were insulting my intelligence throughout the entire thread I thought it was the least I could do! :)

I appreciate and support the work of organizations like ASPCA and HSUS. Although I cant document it, I suspect both organizations have widespread support in most communities.

PETA, on the other hand, is in a different class.

But so are those on the other side of the animal rights debate who misrepresent state laws as scare tactics, quote the CCF as a source of factual information rather than the industry front group propaganda machine that it is, and espouse rhetoric about the coming meatless, pet less society.

IMO, neither extremist should be taken seriously.

What does the HSUS do actually besides spend their millions of dollars on lobbying for legislation that is directed at people that own animals? They own no animal shelters. They do not rescue dogs . Just what is their agenda?
Lobbying and trying to pass laws that violate the civil rights of others..

You don't want to breed animals? Don't breed them! You don't want to eat animals? Don't eat them! Just as I respect your right to have those views kindly give me the same right to breed animals and eat meat if I want to. This is the USA and 1984 is just a piece of literature... so far...

I respect your right to breed animals and eat meat.

I dont respect the propaganda you have espoused throughout this thread.....as a I noted - misrepresenting state laws, citing the CCF as a source of factual information, etc.

Dont most state and local humane dociety's own shelters and rescue dogs? I know the Washington DC Humane Society does.

No one that supports the animals rights extremist group known as the HSUS respects the rights of others. Since you have not proven that any of the facts that the CCF has written are wrong through any supporting facts other than meat producers being their largest contributors I suggest it is you that lacks credibility. Show me what HSUS is doing besides lobbying for legislation that violates the civil rights of animal owners. Show me the animal shelters they have. Show the animals they are helping.
Dog RESCUE is entirely different than an animal shelter. Rescues are usually breed specific.

Look, you can believe the CCF even though it does not document any of its allegations. That is your right. But until it provides sources for the numerous charges on its "fact sheets," I dont give it much credibility and will treat it as an industry front group and not a consumer advocate...and that is my right.

As to the HSUS....dont most state and local humane societies own shelters and rescue dogs? I know the Washington DC Humane Society does and it is widely supported in the city and not just by "a minority with money who want a meatless, pet less sociey."

Humane Society of the United States... Catchy name they have huh? Makes you think they are the ones in charge of your Humane Society. Well they have nothing to do with any humane societies except that is in their name. Ask your shelter.The HSUS is not affiliated with any local shelters. They have nothing to do with your local shelter
I wonder why HSUS with all their money does not sue CCF for libel? Because you can't really do that when its the truth.

Local Humane Societies are wonderful community assets. The HSUS is an animal rights extremist group.

The HSUS is like many national organizations, where comparable local organizations are independent but informally connected. The national provides advocacy, training, education, resources, standards, etc. (How Is The HSUS Affiliated With My Local Humane Society?)

LOL on your insistence on the truthfulness of the CCF. The fact is that you cannot document any of their charges.

IMO, you are just as much of an extremist as PETA.

You spread bullshit about state laws and fear mongering about a coming "meatless and pet less" society.

That's why I dont either you or PETA very seriously.

Your, hmmm shall we say naivete is what organizations like the HSUS count on to collect their money. They had nothing to do with your shelter or how its run or any other shelter in the United States. They are not affiliated in any manner nor are they connected. All you or anyone else has to do is ask their local Humane Society. The HSUS merely collects money so they can lobby for legislation that violates the rights of people that own animals.. They are an animal rights extremist organization.
Your insistence that the CCF is lying is charming. ;)

And now I might contribute $1 to In Defense of Animals with my next purchase on eBay.

Thanks for the tip!

Think of me as chicken little if you like but you will never see that the sky is falling if you are so intent on grabbing your ankles.

Yes I read the OPINION piece you quoted. So what? Because you repeatedly quoted it doesn't mean that her opinion is any more valid than yours, mine or anyone elses.
And again, I wholeheartedly disagree with the author that "rescue dogs usually have problems...." The problems just make good press. You NEVER hear of the hundreds of thousands that go to good homes without problems, just loving families.

I never insulted your intelligence. I questioned some of your opinions. I voiced my opinions which differed. Isn't that what this is all about? Yet because I disagreed, I insulted you?

I would certainly hope that they would direct their efforts at people with animals.
In 2008, they only spent $40,000. They haven't spent more than $200,000 since 2004.

try this
or this

Thanks for the link on HSUS lobbying expenditures.

It looks to me like they spend far more each year on providing free veterinary care in rural communities than they do on lobbying.

Each year HSVMA-RAVS provides over $1 million in free veterinary services to upwards of 7,000 animals, all at no cost to the clients or communities we serve. In addition the program provides valuable training and experience for hundreds of future veterinary professionals that goes far beyond anything they could learn in a classroom alone.

http://ruralareavet.org/

Nirvana, I certainly respect your opinion, it simply differs from mine. I like you and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.