Thanks Bruce - at least someone got it right.

SO you think the assholes "rewarding" Joe Wilson should get fucked as well?

There are assholes in every country...what a surprise.

Hold the french or Italian dressing....tainting the grass like that that would be un-american.

Not to mention elitist...

I dont condone the shoe throwing incident.

I dont condone rewarding the guy and making him out as a hero.

I do understand how more than a few Iraqi might still be little pissed off after seeing their sister and wives raped by American soldiers, their sons and brothers humiliated and their religion defiled by American prson guards.

While we know it was the rare exception, rather than the rule, it happened and locals respond emotionally.

The people who have the power to reward or replace him will have just that opportunity very soon - thats how it should be.
Oh and yeh I think what he did was worthy of a "buttfucking in the mouth"
... and on the cellar.

Back away from the Koolaid.

I just had to save that quote to expose what you think about American Soldiers and the job they are doing overseas. Thanks for your support Dick.

Oh excuse me.

There were not RARE exceptions (as I noted) of raping young girls, murdering civilians in cold blood, and abusing and humiliating prisoners and defiling their religion....lets pretend it never happened.

My mistake, dick.

What ever, you have been exposed.

I get it.

You have no interest in understanding or discussing why some (many) Iraqis might have deep-seated resentments about the US....even if we don't agree with those resentments and think they are emotionally driven, rather than factually-based.

A very constructive approach!

Maybe because your opinion of the US soldier is as shitty and INCORRECT as theirs. Well here is a hearty FUCK YOU to you.

Boy you wanna wait for the facts to come out on your ACORN SCUM friends, but will criticize and degrade the mean and women of our armed services????

WOW.

I point out that on RARE occasions, members of the US armed forces have acted outside the law and been convicted of crimes of rape and murder as well as abusing and degarding prisoners...and conceivably that is one reason why many Iraqis have resentments against the US...even though I made it clear that I dont share that "shitty" opinion.

You guys have lost all perspective here.

I would suggest that you get a grip on your emotions.

Hmmmm...

Merc wants to expose me. (Post #69 :eek:)

Classic wants to heartily FUCK ME.

Sorry, guys, I dont go that way...."not that there's anything wrong with that."

I would just say fuck off.

Which is it? Rare or not rare?

Start with the first time I made the point and I think you know what I meant:
And no, you still cant FUCK ME.

I wouldn't fuck you with Tommy's dick. Sorry to disappoint you.

I think its comical how you guys just lost it completely at the end here.

I honestly thought that trying to understand the emotions (right or wrong) of some Iraqis might be helpful to understand the shoe throwing act and the later "rewards"......not justify it or condone it...but understand it.

IMO, its still important to understand that resentment, as long as we have one troop on the ground there...where they face potential backlash every day from the average Iraqi citizen who may have a grudge against the US.

Merc and Classic aren't interested in gathering greater understanding of them. Just as they aren't interested in gaining a grater understanding of why someone might choose to commit a crime. It's not such an unusual stance. Understanding requires empathy; which can easily be confused with agreement or justification.

Rapes by US soldiers (and by UK soldiers) have happened in Iraq. They happen in pretty much every conflict, why on earth would you think that US soldiers are unique?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1785694.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...show-rape.html

I made light of it at the end of this weird exchange but at a deeper level, it is very troubling that there are folks out their with such unwillingness to acknowledge the less than honorable actions of our government (and of a very small number of military personnel) without casting aspersions on the patriotism of those who believe it is always in our best interest to be open and willing to discuss such actions and incidents.

And to further understand why there are many around the world who no longer hold us in such high standing.

We, the US and UK, are supposed to be leaders of the free world. Not just the governments, but the people as well. One can only wonder why some are so afraid to allow us to display our warts along with our empathy and compassion for others...and to demonstrate that we are just simple human beings like any other in the world.

To be fair, Redux, a lot of that comes from people who have an emotional investment in the forces.

To put it in a lighter context, I can get very defensive if people diss a show I have invested in emotionally:P Magnify that by a huge factor for people who've experienced the incredible unity and emotional connection that comes from serving in the forces.

So what do you get when you call the President a liar?

Dana, I accept that and agree completely, particularly regarding other Cellar folks and their personal connection to the military, of which I know very little. Just as they know very little about my support for our men and women in uniform.

But there are many out there for whom it is an ideological war and to question their agenda or the actions of the government somehow makes one unpatriotic.

Oh, I don't doubt that for a second, Redux. But the thing about ideology is it's usually founded on a set of beliefs and assumptions which are central to the individual's sense of self. It goes deep. That's not to say some people haven't manipulated the landscape a little to make it difficult for people of a different set of beliefs to question/criticise the actions of a government/party/military action. But for most people, ideology is at least as much an emotional commitment as it is a political one.

I dont expect the ideological differences to end. It is the stridency of the "debate" and the venomous personal nature of attacks that, IMO, is a relatively new phenomena.

Or maybe I am just getting old.

*chuckles*

Maybe a little of both :P Times have changed. In many ways politics is less respectful, and less 'gentlemanly'. But I think it was always filthy behind the scenes. And people have always got very heated about politics. Look at the McCarthy era. Look at the ordinary, child-rearing, loving mothers and fathers who screamed hatred at the civil rights activists. Those weren't all 'bad' people. But they were reacting, at least in part from a fear that their society was going down the pan. We've now had several years of heightened sensitivity to the threat of terror and the 'islamist threat'. If people feel that their country and way of life is under threat then they are likely to react emotionally rather than seeking a deeper understanding: others wanting to seek a deeper undestanding become a part of the threat.

Not a reason to stop making the case of course.

McCarthy? Hey, I'm not that old!

I worked in the US Senate during the Reagan era and while there were significant ideological differences, there was civility.

Then again, we dont have anything like a weekly Prime Ministers Questions...but I want it!

I think the sheer availability of 24 hr a day news coverage may also be a factor.

McCarthy brought back memories.

Time for a personal story :)

My great uncle was a victim of McCarthyism. He has been recognized as probably the greatest harmonica player of the 20th century and spent much of his life in the UK, where he performed for the royal famiily and as a backup on a couple of Procol Harem tracks.

His bio in cartoon!
http://www.procolharum.com/99/larry_adler.htm

Ahhh....now I see why you hate America! :P

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the communist party!

Damn...I have...


Actually, I haven't. But I was in the Socialist Workers Party.

You guys have it, me anyway, all wrong.

I would never support that notion.

Oh please, you don't have a fucking clue.

Damm! So they never hung him? That evil Americika!

You're a bitter angry little man.

You have my sympathy.

You're quite right. I can only come to conclusions based on what you post in the cellar. It's a two dimensional picture, but it's all I have with which to reach such conclusions.

Please do not confuse me with someone who is not willing nor able to listen, read, debate and gain a greater understanding of the world. You quickly lumped me into a preconceived notion of yours which I find not only offensive, but completely wrong.
kthxbai

I am still trying to figure out how suggesting that we try understand that there may be resentment in Iraq against the US, in part, because of the horrific way a few of our troops treated Iraqi civilians, can draw a conclusion from you that:

"(my)opinion of the US soldier is as shitty and INCORRECT as theirs."

when I made it clear that it was not my opinon....it was suggestion that we try to understand their opinion

followed by the emotional:

"Well here is a hearty FUCK YOU to you!

"....will criticize and degrade the mean and women of our armed services????"

Who did I degrade other than the few specifically refered to as convicted or raping and murdering Iraqi women and abusing Iraqi prisonsers.

You got some 'splainin to do, dude or I would suggest the reaction to your post was appropriate.

I am prepared to accept I may be wrong. I certainly don't think you are incapable of listening or gaining a greater understanding of the world. I do get the distinct impression you have no wish to gain a greater understanding of why someone might hate Bush enough to throw a shoe at him and why others may feel the same way and consider him a hero. In the thread about paedophilia you said you don't care why someone is like that (whether they are sick, victims of previous abuse, just made that way).

Someone suggests that there may be a reason for these people to feel strong antagonism to America and points out that (as in any war) some of them may have witnessed and been victims of cruelty and violence at the hands of soldiers, in this case US soldiers, and you shout down his throat about his view of US soldiers: as if he believed them all to be rapists and murderers.

I based my assumption about you on what appears to be an unwillingness to engage in understanding and empathy in these two very difficult areas.

I apologise if that offends you. But I only have the words you type from which to draw conclusions.

Looking back on the exchange, I should not have made light of it and it certainly did not contribute to any further productive discussion with those of opposing views for which I apologize.

I simply should have responded by saying that I found your characterization of my opinion of the troops to be offensive and completely wrong...and the expletive to be offensive and unworthy of response.

Redux - I read your post as written not as you meant it. I thought we covered that in the explanation you gave previously. I apologize for what I "said" publicly. I thought - well you already know what I thought. - ANYWAY....

Dana, When it comes to "sex with children" and the attitude that "positive childhood sexual experiences with adults do occur" You are correct, I am not interested.

When it comes to other cultural beliefs, attitudes and political systems... that is a whole different discussion. If I wasn't interested in other thoughts or ideals or the discussion of these, why the hell would I be here on such a liberal-slanted site? Since you don't get it, I'll tell you - I realize that I am in the minority here with respect to my political views. One very important reason that I am here is to listen to, read, share and exchange differing views. Sheesh! You are such a manc tart!

To me, you seem like the type who would offer a reward to someone who threw their shoe at Qadafi or Ahmadinejad. You might even throw your shoe at one of them yourself. Am I mistaken?

Classic...thank you for your response.

Now I would like to know if you think it matters how citizens of other countries perceive the US as a nation and the president as a world leader?

While it is not the primary role of the president to play to the world stage and world public opinion, IMO, the perception is important and impacts us at every level....from anti-terrorism efforts to trade negotiations to tourism to the perception of US troops stationed around the world.

Look at a recent Pew poll on global attitudes about the US (and please dont go for the Merc cop-out on polls).

I would hope the results would give you pause for thought:
Even more striking is the perception and confidence of the US president as a world leader:

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/1289-2.gif

Does it matter to you what others outside the US think about us?

Could it be that these drastically more positive perceptions just might be in the US best interest..without compromising our own national interests in any way? Particularly in the regions of the world where we might face the greatest threat.

Beyond the general perceptions, look at it from the perspective of another discussion here, in terms of Iran (even though Iran is not included in the poll). Some dont see the value of one last attempt to negotiate with Iran and I assume would prefer a more belligerent US position. Is that more in our interest?

When did it become a bad thing to being liked AND respected beyond our own borders?

True dat :P

:lol2:

So are you willing to accept in the same level of understanding that someone might hate Obama enough to oppose him and his policy in public, on a forum, or as one of the 75,000 who protested against him this week on the Mall? Or do you just push that off as another group of racists?

And you are willing to defend a Child Pedophile but not a soldier. WOW, that speaks volumes.

It is not an issue of understanding that there are millions of Americans who oppose Obama's policy. That is a given.

It is an issue of showing even a very minimal level of personal respect to those with whom you disagree.

Clearly, you have no interest in doing that.

Enjoy your rampage across the political forum. I really hope it does make you feel better about yourself.

Not one fucking bit.

Oh Look everybody, a Poll!!!!

Who frigging cares?

Absolutely not. It is not important.

Never. But when it becomes so important that you worry about what others think you have lost perspective about what is important for your own country and others that you were elected to represent. And anyone who forms policy on what others think is a total idiot. Obama, can you hear us?

Like, by, uh.... throwing your shoes at them?

Nah...telling me to fuck off, calling me an asshole, making crude remarks about my family....that was telling enough.

You find that to be acceptable behavior for an adult? Would you accept that from your children? Would you raise your children to respond to those with whom they disagree in that manner?

Well he and the others in Congress had better start to pay attention...

Oh please, those people can fuck off and just look back at 8 years of Bush hate as an example of what Obama should be treated like.

It is not about me. It is about the Demoncrats who have been in charge of Conress for over two years and every thing they have done or failed to do. It goes along with the job. Too bad, so sad...

I honestly though we could get past the personal attacks.

Obviously not.

I'm sorry, are you actually... preaching at me??? You're bringing my children into your argument???

Nope...just asking simple straight forward questions.

Bullshit. Own your words.

Hey...if thats how you feel, fine!

:rolleyes:Well imagine that...

:eek: