Ok...Why? I'll pose that question to both Ut and glatt.

Because if taxes were paid on energy instead of on income, you would see energy prices really go through the roof. Also, goods and services that rely on energy consumption would also skyrocket. But to counterbalance that, you would have no income taxes. In other words, you would have more money in your wallet to pay for all the expensive shit.

Then, since everything is expensive, you would consider ways to reduce those expenses by cutting your energy use. You would get rid of that SUV and buy a Smart car because it would finally occur to you that driving off the road 3 times a year isn't worth the $10K you are paying to do it. You would get rid of your 50 year old furnace (this is me we're talking about now) and buy an energy efficient modern one.

You would adjust your thermostat when you realized that 1 degree equals $25 a day.

Basically it would be a HUGE incentive to stop wasting energy. It would also be a HUGE incentive for alternative fuels to be developed.

UT is right that there would be insane inflation at first, but hopefully that would come down as everyone slowly retools their lives. Meanwhile, you aren't paying any income tax, so you have more money to pay for the huge price increases.

Only drawback I see is that poor people who don't pay much in income tax in the first place will have a really hard time of it. So there would have to be some way to deal with that.

Plus, once everyone has retoooled, the government would still need a tax base, so they would start income taxes again on top of the energy taxes.

So people like me that can't afford all the expensive stuff can finally fall to their natural level and die.


I can imagine that this would never occur in the way it's been stated. I can imagine however, that I would be forced to pay both sets of taxes.

This logic does not work for me. If they cut income taxes to zero..I would still not be able to afford a smart car. And that is just one neccessity I would have of many.

I already conserve and live on next to nothing. My thermostats are usually off. I'm not the person that needs to be taxed here....

Good point. Maybe the tax shouldn't kick in until a certain threshold, so frugal people aren't screwed. Your first million BTUs are tax free.

The devil is in the details.

I'm not sure a BTU tax would work in the USA because it could not be evenly applied to the population, but it is appealing. A carrot/stick approach would be more effective. Bicycles and public transportation could be given preferential treatment instead of private vehicles, and definitely the old Victory Garden idea. Can't get much more local than that.

But the question was, since I don't think they are ever intending to do away with income taxes, will we be expected to pay both sets of taxes? Income and BTU? I am following the logic of the United States here.....
:D

I'm just saying, IF they sold the BTU tax on the basis of doing away with the wage tax. Which would be a good way to do it.

Because, to me, taxes on consumption are better than just taxes on wage. We should tax what people consume, not what they produce.

Excellent point! UT!

Of course I am already taxed for what I consume when I go to the grocery store and a variety of other places. Saaaales tax. Can we do away with that too then? That would be Awesome (notice the big A).

Cicero, you need to come live with us in the stronghold that is New Hampshire.... no sales tax... ;)

(It sounds cool until you realize that our property taxes are astronomical because they've got to make up the difference somewhere.)

OR you could come live with us in the stronghold that is Texas--high sales tax (but no sales tax on food and basic necessities), no state income tax.

(It sounds cool because it is cool. I like our system.)

Right. Why do you think the Bush families and other pols claim it as home?

I think you have already mentioned that the money has to come from somewhere. So someone will be paying the same - or more - somewhere down the line.

And if those people are the big consumers, they are likely the big spenders, and they won't like it.

The people I know who rant (and rant and rant) about the congestion charge in London are those who have the most money. They talk about "rights" to drive a car in London, and how congestion charging has killed the capital. No word of the fact that thet really just want to drive 6 miles, sitting in traffic, polluting the atmosphere when it would be better for everyone apart from them if they used public transport.

People won't take a long term view, or a community view as long as there is something left to use up. If it's there, people feel entitled to it and sod the consequences. And there is the seductive excuse of, "why should I do x if my neighbour doesn't do y?" Why shouldn't I use disposable carrier bags when other people drive SUVs? Why should I switch the water off when I clean my teeth when footballers drive Ferraris? Because it has to start somewhere.

Sorry, am sad and bitter tonight.

Yea...well I was talking about hope and personal responsibility, when someone came up with a new tax to solve the problems on me. Welcome to my bitter world!! Bwuahahaaaa!
;)

Clodfobble. Texas has sales tax on food. ??? At least, it does when I go to the grocery store.

and I'm not green, I'm pink, dammit! I'm a pinkperson!

Lots of things at the grocery store don't qualify, like prepped food from the deli, and alcohol, and cosmetics, etc. You will have sales tax on your final bill, but if you do the math it won't add up to the full amount it should be. If your grocery store has computer monitors at the checkout, it should be marked somewhere on the screen whether each item is taxed or not as it gets scanned.

okay, you're right. a little net research says "bread and milk" aren't taxed. How odd--I never noticed. I will be more aware henceforth!

I was thinking about this on a long drive back from LA to Phoenix.

I think the future of both energy and clean water is micro-production. Small production plants in every home, solar or other clean technologies, and rainwater/condensation traps on roofs, cisterns to store freshwater from the rainy seasons.

This acute supply problems in areas like LA, where I live, would be alleviated if 20 million people, 5 million households meant 5 million small power production plants, and 5 million small water collection sites.

We're seeing an epochal transition away from the industrial mindset, where the goal was consolidation of production in every area, to ... I dunno. No good name for it yet.

Also, I'm pretty drunk, so I may come back online tomorrow morning and clarify.

I like the distributed production idea. Look what's happening in Alaska right now, an avalanche took out the high tension lines that connect the city to its hydropower sources. They are screwed. Distributed production makes you less reliant on one power source. It reduces the impact on the population from monopoly, war, natural disaster, and terrorism. It makes people more directly responsible for themselves which is an invaluable psychological good.

My level of green is probably better than most Americans, but not great. We recycle. We use firewood from tree falls on our property for most of our heating needs. This is almost carbon neutral except for a small amount of chainsaw and vehicle gas used to bring it in. Our back-up heat source during serious cold snaps is wood pellets which I have to purchase. I live too far from work and drive an AWD out of necessity, for where I live. I'm finally getting 30mpg now that the engine is broken in. I'd buy a higher gas mileage AWD vehicle next time if available.

A BTU tax seems like a smart way to go as long as income is no longer taxed.

For dense populations, cogeneration.

Yeppers xo! You can also convert energy produced from your greenhouse, into heating or cooling in your main house. I haven't had my own house to try it yet...But the non-profit I used to work for used to give away this conversion package (greenhouse etc.)

Not only that, you get to eat the awesome food produced in the greenhouse...

I hadn't seen that setup, do you have a link, or a name for the package?

Here is an article or website on it...but this can be used if the greenhouse is not part of the structure and merely attached. It requires solar cells etc.
http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/attache...greenhouse.htm

Here is a diagram but is not exactly what I'm talking about, but includes the basic idea.
Attachment 17815

Oops..I accidently posted cloud's photo instead of the cheesy diagram the first time around.......lol!


You can attach solar to an attached greenhouse and get the same effect, but I can't find the info. I was looking for on CO2 conversion and it isn't on the non-prof. web-site. Batting zero this morning. I would love to give you the web address for said, non-profit so you can get more info, but I need to mantain at least a little cellar and internet anonymity so pm me if you really want it! They do have docs. on the conversion and love to talk about it so you may contact them (e-mail or call) if you want their specs. and more information about the particulars...These packages are not for sale- it is a non-profit...there is no catchy name for the greenhouse and the conversion that I know of...but e-mail them if you are interested. I can't find the particular conversion on the internet......Earlier I found a decent patent for this conversion and lost it. I didn't know it was so "obscure". I am getting pissed at the googly this morning.

That actually pisses me off that the information about these types of conversions are being mudied with "greenhouse effect" panic on the internet, when you are looking for the legitimate information on greenhouse conversions to help sustain. :headshake

We made a big leap forward on "greening" the house the past week. Radiant barrier, solar water heater, and polarized films on the windows. It was a special deal with a company where they figure out exactly what the energy savings are going to be for your house, and then finance the cost so that you're breaking even until it's paid for itself.

There were some interesting parts of the process. The solar water heater has these two very large black panels that go up on the roof, and are quite visible from the street. I had mentioned that our HOA might have a problem with that, though they've never been dicks about anything in the past, and he said actually, they can't legally have a problem with it. He handed me a copy of a federal statute that says any green energy improvements to a property are automatically exempt from any HOA rules, as long as they are professionally installed and maintained. I didn't know that. Also, because we obviously get more solar usage during the day, it's more efficient for us now if we are able to run the laundry and dishwasher earlier rather than late in the evening. I'm working on adjusting the schedule so that can happen, at least during the cold months.

I use a stainless steel water bottle, but mainly because there is a water cooler in my office and it doesn't spill like the plastic 7-11 Domokun cup that I usually use.

I buy gasoline with ethanol in it because there is only one gas station between my house and work and that's what they sell.

I recycle paper, plastic, and metals because it's in my lease that I have to.

I use canvas bags for shopping because they hold more, don't break, and I have to carry my groceries a very long distance from the parking lot. Fewer bags = fewer trips.

So, yeah. I'm green.

I was sort of surprised a few years ago when our pick-up service changed the sorting
of paper, cans, plastic, etc of the re-cycling system over to an "all-one bin", except for glass.

I can see that our household is now recycling more than half of our trash,
whereas before it was barely a quarter.
This without having to give any thought to it - except to put the styrofoam into the trash.

Styrofoam is frustrating because of it's bulk in the trash,
and the only recycling place for it will only take large blocks...
peanuts and other bits and pieces are rejected.

Oregon gas contains ethanol during the winter, so we have little to no choice.

Aluminum cans and plastic "water" bottles have deposits so they go back to the store,
and the "midnight stalkers" manage to pick or dismantle anything made of metal that can be carried away, :eyebrow:

I've developed a green conscience, which I find annoying.

I don't have o.c.d, but I imagine it's what o.c.d. feels like when trying to determine what is recyclable,or if I feel too lazy to rise out the container, but I HAVE to.

I imagine that most people find pleasure, and self satisfaction in recycling. I do not. I don't feel this is normal. I think I should feel self congratulatory on my way to the recycle bin.I don't. I wonder if there is anything in my garbage that should have been there. Like those little plastic tops off the water bottles.The inside packages of cereal boxes, handi wrap, and the list goes on and on.

Fortunately, I have a short attention span. :)

green, green, my yew is green
greenest damn yew, that you've ever seen
red, red, its berries are red
squish 'em, don't eat 'em
or you will get dead

When it's wet, how the bark looks brown
When it's dried, now the bark still looks brown

I doubt most people will get this.... :lol2:
Well maybe Lamp will... ;)

I have a green ball...

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s...7feb0044-1.jpg

oooh Nice!

The old fogies...

I didn't get it.

This is a new page...Errrr, what were we talking about, again ????

1967 radio hit

I went on a bit of a rant the other day at work. I had an "Organic Fair Trade" coffee beverage from the hippie aisle at my grocery store. It was in one of those tetrapak cartons. I was complaining that anything I buy in the hippie aisle should be in recyclable packaging. I eventually turned the thing over and it assured me that it was recyclable, and that I should visit a website to learn more.

Ooh! Recyclable! Cool!

http://www.recyclecartons.com/

I have to go to either Erie or Haverford.

Yeah. Sure.

Straight in the trash.

Via your link, the recycling in Oregon directly superimposes on the Democratic voting districts :rolleyes:

Greenwashing.

Try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCu5w59eiE

Not really. They're just getting started. Packaging like that would have to be handled differently from the other recyclables, so the various entities that handle recycling for individual municipalities will have to support it. It's too bad that PA only has two, but looking up a few other states (MA, CT) finds much more support.

DC does, so that's cool. I never would have suspected that that type of container could be recycled. Unfortunately, my condo's recycling is not handled by the city, so I'm not 100% certain that I can do it, without saving them up to drop in my parents' recycling.

I'm sure I've mentioned this before. Drax (the Destroyer) is green:

Although I'm a froggie, I won't be green until the day I die. From there and through some decomposition stages, maybe...