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-   -   There are no illegal immigrants in America (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=16263)

Radar 12-29-2007 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binky (Post 420007)
Trust me Buster, as a lifelong Californian, not all of us feels the way Radar does about the immigration problem here-not even close. Most of the people I know would like to leave California over this mess, and I will be doing just that when we retire

The immigration problem? I don't see a problem at all. Immigrants built America. The undocumented immigrants who came here last night are no different than the Irish, Dutch, German, Italian, Greek, French, etc. immigrants who came before them.

America's greatest strength is our diversity. Those who fear competition for work don't deserve to have any.

binky 12-29-2007 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420037)
The immigration problem? I don't see a problem at all. Immigrants built America. The undocumented immigrants who came here last night are no different than the Irish, Dutch, German, Italian, Greek, French, etc. immigrants who came before them.

America's greatest strength is our diversity. Those who fear competition for work don't deserve to have any.

sure they are Radar do you see billboards in the Irish, Dutch, German etc neighborhoods in their native languages? Do they make the schools teach their kids in their native language because they are too fucking lazy to learn English? No those immigrants were required to learn English to become citizens

Undertoad 12-29-2007 12:37 PM

Well alrighty then.

Have immigration laws been Constitutionally tested in the courts? What was the result?

edit: Under the Constitution, what rights do non-citizens have?

Undertoad 12-29-2007 12:44 PM

Aha - right after posting that, I found it:

Article I Section 8: The Congress shall have power ... To establish a uniform rule of naturalization

What of that, expert?

edit: here's a page that explains how immigration law has worked through history and it's utterly clear that Congress' efforts to manage immigration were exactly as intended from the beginning.

busterb 12-29-2007 01:12 PM

What? Ya think he's going to click a link that might show him as full of shit?

fargon 12-29-2007 01:53 PM

I have no problem with people coming here to improve their lives, just stop and sign the f@#$%ing guest book along the way!!!
P.S. I'm an exiled Californian myself.

classicman 12-29-2007 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fargon (Post 420054)
I have no problem with people coming here to improve their lives, just stop and sign the f@#$%ing guest book along the way!!!

Exactly, ok lemme see here,:eek: you're a rapist/murderer molester.... no thanks! :headshake

xoxoxoBruce 12-29-2007 05:19 PM

Or have a communicable disease, shunt to the Doctors for an evaluation and treatment, if there is one.

Kitsune 12-29-2007 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binky (Post 420043)
sure they are Radar do you see billboards in the Irish, Dutch, German etc neighborhoods in their native languages?

Out of all the problems ever addressed in the immigration issue including healthcare, taxes, fraud, population, wages, terrorism, jobs, crime, etc, your biggest problem is...billboards in other languages?

Not really a city person, are ya?

binky 12-29-2007 08:42 PM

not at all Kitsune, that was just the first obvious difference that popped into my head, and as a matter of fact grew up in San Diego, which now sucks

Radar 12-29-2007 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binky (Post 420043)
sure they are Radar do you see billboards in the Irish, Dutch, German etc neighborhoods in their native languages? Do they make the schools teach their kids in their native language because they are too fucking lazy to learn English? No those immigrants were required to learn English to become citizens

Everyone is required to learn English to become a citizen. What's your point? They aren't interested in becoming citizens. They are fine just being immigrants and their children can be citizens. Many of them plan to go back to Mexico when they retire.

Also, it took 2-3 generations for many Germans to start speaking English. The same is true of Italians, Polish, Russians and many others. Those who immigrated here tried to build a better life for their children. Their children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren learned English and became citizens.

What's wrong with having billboards in other languages? Clearly there is a market for people who speak that language. Who are you to tell someone else what language they must put on a billboard?

I'm sure you are aware that English is not the language of America because America has no official language. We've done pretty good without one so far.

Radar 12-29-2007 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 420046)
Well alrighty then.

Have immigration laws been Constitutionally tested in the courts? What was the result?

edit: Under the Constitution, what rights do non-citizens have?

Under the Constitution non-citizens have the same rights as any other human being. Our rights don't come from the Constitution. The only thing they can't do is vote. They have a right to trial by jury, to travel anonymously, to be secure in their personal effects (privacy), etc.

As far as the courts testing the Constitutionality, that is irrelevant. The courts routinely rule in violation of the Constitution including the Supreme Court.

Radar 12-29-2007 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 420047)
Aha - right after posting that, I found it:

Article I Section 8: The Congress shall have power ... To establish a uniform rule of naturalization

What of that, expert?

edit: here's a page that explains how immigration law has worked through history and it's utterly clear that Congress' efforts to manage immigration were exactly as intended from the beginning.

Naturalization is the process by which an immigrant may become a citizen. It has absolutely nothing to do with how someone becomes an immigrant in the first place. Having power to make rules over naturalization does not grant any power whatsoever over immigration.

Congress is PROHIBITED from making legislating anything not specifically enumerated in the Constitution and PROHIBITED from having any "implied" powers.

Radar 12-29-2007 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binky (Post 420104)
not at all Kitsune, that was just the first obvious difference that popped into my head, and as a matter of fact grew up in San Diego, which now sucks

I went to basic training in San Diego. It was beautiful then, and it still is.

Griff 12-30-2007 08:07 AM

Radar, I agree completely with the spirit of what you're saying. Unfortunately, the Constitution is no longer in effect. It has become something to give a nod to like the Magna Carta. We live in UG's magical democracy now, anything goes.

Radar 12-30-2007 11:14 AM

If anything goes and the government doesn't abide by the limits on its powers and works to violate our rights instead of defend them and practices imperialism, it's time to overthrow the government and regardless of what people think, an armed revolution in America still has a great chance of success....if we can get enough of the apathetic, lazy, people with short attention spans to get their asses off the couch to fight.

The problem is decades of government education has made people stupidly believe their rights come from government or from "society" and they think government is all powerful and is above the people rather than being our servant.

Unfortunately people think as long as they have cable tv and microwave meals, they are free. I've been trying to figure out exactly what it would take to get people to actually stand up and take up arms, but the government's actions are out in the open now and people still don't care. It's like alcoholism. You can't help someone fix a problem if they don't even recognize that they have one.

During my years of political activism, I found myself constantly reminded of a quote from the movie, The Matrix. It's when Morpheus is showing Neo what the Matrix really is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around and what do you see? Businessmen, Teachers, Lawyers, Carpenters...the very minds of the people we're trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will that they will fight to protect it.


Kitsune 12-30-2007 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420192)
You can't help someone fix a problem if they don't even recognize that they have one.

Did you ever think that what we are right now is exactly what the majority wants us to be? That if it all came down to a vote, this is exactly where we'd end up all over again because people enjoy living this way?

regular.joe 12-30-2007 12:08 PM

O.K. lets see. The Government today has not told me what to do with my money, my time, my travel destination, where I live, who I talk and associate with. I've traveled between 3 states over the xmas holidays and was not stopped, anywhere for anything. Even though it's illegal, I could probably by crack or a gun on the corner downtown somewhere. The reason I can do this illegal activity is because of our great freedoms here.

I for one have not been restricted in any way in the freedoms that I have been so graciously afforded in these great United States. There was that time I was arrested in Macedonia...but then I was IN MACEDONIA.

I for one do not like this talk of armed overthrow of the United States. Especially from a citizen who enjoys the freedoms here. I will not sit idly by and listen to such drivel.

You just made an open threat to overthrow the U.S. I get paid to take such statements seriously. You will probably say, if you were investigated that your rights were being violated. What utter nonsense. Right now, if you pick up arms against the U.S., you pick up arms against me. Be warned, and do not make such statements lightly.

Radar 12-30-2007 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune (Post 420201)
Did you ever think that what we are right now is exactly what the majority wants us to be? That if it all came down to a vote, this is exactly where we'd end up all over again because people enjoy living this way?

Did you ever think that we shouldn't have what the majority wants? I happen to think my rights are more important than what the majority wants. I also don't think people enjoy living this way. If you ask people if they like paying income taxes, or having their children and grandchildren born into debt, having their rights attacked, etc. my guess is they'd say no.

Radar 12-30-2007 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe (Post 420202)
O.K. lets see. The Government today has not told me what to do with my money, my time, my travel destination, where I live, who I talk and associate with. I've traveled between 3 states over the xmas holidays and was not stopped, anywhere for anything. Even though it's illegal, I could probably by crack or a gun on the corner downtown somewhere. The reason I can do this illegal activity is because of our great freedoms here.

I for one have not been restricted in any way in the freedoms that I have been so graciously afforded in these great United States. There was that time I was arrested in Macedonia...but then I was IN MACEDONIA.

I for one do not like this talk of armed overthrow of the United States. Especially from a citizen who enjoys the freedoms here. I will not sit idly by and listen to such drivel.

You just made an open threat to overthrow the U.S. I get paid to take such statements seriously. You will probably say, if you were investigated that your rights were being violated. What utter nonsense. Right now, if you pick up arms against the U.S., you pick up arms against me. Be warned, and do not make such statements lightly.

Be warned, if an armed revolution takes place to return America to the people of America and you stand in my way, I will gun you down and you will die like a dog. You would be smart not to take that lightly either.

fargon 12-30-2007 12:57 PM

:corn: :blah: :blah:

Kitsune 12-30-2007 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420204)
If you ask people if they like paying income taxes, or having their children and grandchildren born into debt, having their rights attacked, etc. my guess is they'd say no.

Food, water, shelter, fuel. Those will be what start an armed revolution, not the desire to perfect the current government. Direct threats to lives have the ability to trigger the fight response in people and you're simply not going to see that in this age of comfort and fortune in the US. No one is going to feel the need to rebel when they're mind knows they're warm, fat, and happy. Only the desperate fight. You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think anyone is going to pick up a gun over this. Do it and you'll be lauded as a nutcase.

Tell you what -- go ahead and take up arms and tell others you're doing it in the name of handing over immigration law to the states in support of the people flooding over the border. I'm sure there will be waves of support right behind you.

xoxoxoBruce 12-30-2007 01:45 PM

Yelling, Viva Senior Radar.

piercehawkeye45 12-30-2007 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420192)
The problem is decades of government education has made people stupidly believe their rights come from government or from "society" and they think government is all powerful and is above the people rather than being our servant.

Our differences in our philosophy of rights have very little to do with revolution, but more in tolerance of different laws. If there is a law that the people feel is unnecessary, people will not be happy no matter were they think rights come from. Also, the government teaches your version of rights, not mine.

Griff 12-30-2007 02:33 PM

Seriously Radar, government employees have no problem killing for a steady paycheck. People are really good at rationalizing their actions. When you put that up against a set of ideas that people won't even vote for, you're going to lose. Just sit back and wait for the system to collapse under the weight of irrelevence. Our system of government will disappear as a side note, not as a major event. Centralization is failing. While you wait, live a good, joyous, productive life so that you won't regret the failure of the revolution on your death bed. Proven idiots like Che wasted their and others' lives for revolutions they couldn't control. Don't follow that model.

xoxoxoBruce 12-30-2007 02:37 PM

Unnecessary laws we have plenty of. What pisses people off is laws that are not for (against?) everyone, or selectively applied. Most people will grumble and bear it if everyone's in the same boat, then work within the system to bitch.

Radar 12-30-2007 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune (Post 420210)
Food, water, shelter, fuel. Those will be what start an armed revolution, not the desire to perfect the current government. Direct threats to lives have the ability to trigger the fight response in people and you're simply not going to see that in this age of comfort and fortune in the US. No one is going to feel the need to rebel when they're mind knows they're warm, fat, and happy. Only the desperate fight. You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think anyone is going to pick up a gun over this. Do it and you'll be lauded as a nutcase.

Tell you what -- go ahead and take up arms and tell others you're doing it in the name of handing over immigration law to the states in support of the people flooding over the border. I'm sure there will be waves of support right behind you.

So having ourselves spied on, losing habeus corpus, being locked up without charges indefinately by the government for merely being accused of something, having our property stolen from us by the government, having families broken up by government, and having Americans murdered by our government isn't enough to get people to take up arms?

All of these things are already happening.

I guess the only way to get people off the couch is to take away their couch.

busterb 12-30-2007 04:02 PM

The west coast always had the best dope!

Undertoad 12-30-2007 04:10 PM

I forgot to pay a traffic ticket and they sent me a letter saying they were gonna arrest me!

But I went to the township building and paid the fine and they said it was cool.

no revolution this month

Kitsune 12-30-2007 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420221)
So having ourselves spied on, losing habeus corpus, being locked up without charges indefinately by the government for merely being accused of something, having our property stolen from us by the government, having families broken up by government, and having Americans murdered by our government isn't enough to get people to take up arms?

Take a look outside and see for yourself.

The basic needs of people have to be affected before they'll do anything. None of the above affects these things, therefore no action.

piercehawkeye45 12-30-2007 05:02 PM

It really doesn't matter as long as people feel free or have other self-obligations that rate higher than freedom.

Besides, your definition of freedom is going to be different from someone else's.

Radar 12-30-2007 05:08 PM

I'm pretty sure getting locked up indefinitely without access to a lawyer or being charged with a crime goes against most people's definition of "freedom". So is being spied on by our own government. Having our property stolen by the government. Being murdered by our government, etc.

But hey, they only murdered my neighbor, not me...so I'm still free right?

Clodfobble 12-30-2007 08:31 PM

The thing you have to remember is that in ideal Radar-land, there are no income taxes and no social services--no public education, hospitals are free to deny even emergency care to anyone who can't pay... if you completely took away all things of that nature, most of the complaints about illegal immigrants would also disappear.

But then we'd be living in ideal Radar-land, rather than reality.

binky 12-30-2007 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420127)
I went to basic training in San Diego. It was beautiful then, and it still is.

Okay Radar you win basic training certainly trumps 30 years of living, school then working in a city

Radar 12-30-2007 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 420251)
The thing you have to remember is that in ideal Radar-land, there are no income taxes and no social services--no public education, hospitals are free to deny even emergency care to anyone who can't pay... if you completely took away all things of that nature, most of the complaints about illegal immigrants would also disappear.

But then we'd be living in ideal Radar-land, rather than reality.

There's a place that was exactly as you described. It was the most free and prosperous nation on earth. It wasn't called "Radar-land", it was the United States of America. Back then we had better schools, a healthcare system nearly everyone could afford where doctors would come to your home, the poor and elderly had MORE help than they do now, and it was provided by those who genuinely cared about them, etc.

Radar 12-30-2007 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binky (Post 420260)
Okay Radar you win basic training certainly trumps 30 years of living, school then working in a city

I go there often. I live less than 2 hours away and go to the outlet stores down there, and to Mexico or San Diego a lot. It's BEAUTIFUL down there RIGHT NOW. The standard of living there is FANTASTIC.

Aliantha 12-30-2007 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420264)
There's a place that was exactly as you described. It was the most free and prosperous nation on earth. It wasn't called "Radar-land", it was the United States of America. Back then we had better schools, a healthcare system nearly everyone could afford where doctors would come to your home, the poor and elderly had MORE help than they do now, and it was provided by those who genuinely cared about them, etc.

...and people ran around shooting all the indigenous people and stealing their land. Black people were slaves. Women weren't allowed to vote...etc etc etc...

Radar 12-30-2007 10:51 PM

Were they doing those things in 1920? 1930? 1940? 1950? 1960? 1970?

Most of the unconstitutional social programs, the department of education, etc. have been created since those times. In fact other than women's suffrage, you could go back to 1865 so you're looking at 100 years where nobody was a slave, where we had a government that pretty closely stuck to the Constitution (other than 1913), where we had unprecedented prosperity, made friendships with all nations, etc.

I love how people stupidly dismiss all of the great things America had back then because of 1 or 2 bad things that had more to do with the culture of the time globally than had to do with something wrong with America.

These are the same idiots who say, "The founders were rich white slave owners who didn't want women to vote...blah blah blah" as though that discounts any of the true freedom they fought for.

Aliantha 12-30-2007 10:58 PM

The point is that this utopia you're talking about was just as far from perfect as the utopia others think they live in now.

Radar 12-30-2007 11:05 PM

If that's your point, you have no point. Nobody said the world is perfect. I never said we lived in utopia. I don't believe utopia is possible. At one time, our government stayed out of our personal lives and it was a more secure, happier, and better time than it is now.

The valid role and scope of government does not include providing health care, education, charity, food, shelter, clothing, retirement, etc. for people.

Aliantha 12-30-2007 11:08 PM

Well you'd better get working on that time machine and blast yourself back there.

If you could make it snappy that'd be pleasant for the rest of us.

piercehawkeye45 12-31-2007 12:01 AM

Radar, do you think there might be a reason why we have changed from the ways of the past?

Looking at modern hunter-gatherer populations, we have found that the murder rate is much lower than in modern society. Since we all used to be hunter-gatherers and since then we have adopted a police force that is seen as corrupt, it only makes sense that we get rid of the police force and see the murder rate decrease.

Or, there might be other variables that are leading to the problem, not the solution to those variables...

Radar 12-31-2007 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 420276)
Well you'd better get working on that time machine and blast yourself back there.

If you could make it snappy that'd be pleasant for the rest of us.

Or better yet, I can help take the country back now, and get rid of all the unconstitutional parts of government....either peacefully....or by other means.

Kitsune 12-31-2007 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420286)
Or better yet, I can help take the country back now, and get rid of all the unconstitutional parts of government....either peacefully....or by other means.

I can't wait for this movie to come out in theaters. Bruckheimer is doing this one, right?

Griff 12-31-2007 01:05 PM

Assuming that many innocent people will die in your revolution, how are you squaring that with the whole initiation of force issue?

Clodfobble 12-31-2007 02:03 PM

"If they're not fighting alongside me, then they are by definition not innocent." - Magic 8-ball, future-quoting Radar

regular.joe 12-31-2007 02:19 PM

I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing.

Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy.
The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police.

Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways.

If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live.

Undertoad 12-31-2007 02:49 PM

They held Jose Padilla, so let's go bomb the Department of Energy! Those fuckers are stealing all my cellophane wrappers!

The country has gone to total shit since 1950!
Well except that it hasn't, in any memorable way. When you step back and take a look, you may notice that things are really going quite well. Half our money is taxed away? I guess that's a sort of glass-half-empty thing, because the other side of that is we're so massively fucking rich that we don't even give a shit.

Gummint stayed out of personal lives back then? This is a libertarian meme which, I think, is a big lie, or at least a misunderstanding of how things are/were. If you care to skip the civil war we can start with the Jim Crow laws which mandated "separate but equal", which started immediately following. Those laws were a part of this wonderfully libertarian model you enjoy so well. Did you just not learn about them in public school or something?

Did you notice that it was federalism that ended those laws? Anti-freedom federalism?

Did you think it was better when 50% of us were poor farm families? Did you not notice that the period you say things got bad coincides neatly with the industrial revolution? Did you not notice that our ability to stay out of war with other countries - except for Mexico - and Spain via Cuba - ended with the invention of the airplane, which allows people to reach us in shorter than two weeks' time?

Jose Padilla held without charges, hell they fried Sacco and Vanzetti during this freedom-lovin' period. The libertarians of their era, they put 'em in the electric chair. Good times!

Radar 12-31-2007 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff (Post 420360)
Assuming that many innocent people will die in your revolution, how are you squaring that with the whole initiation of force issue?

It's not the initiation of force. It's the use of defensive force against those who are initiating force against me. Those who are working with or defending those who are using force against me are also using force against me.

In other words, they started it, and I'll finish it and anyone who gets in my way isn't innocent.

Radar 12-31-2007 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 420374)
"If they're not fighting alongside me, then they are by definition not innocent." - Magic 8-ball, future-quoting Radar

Very close, but not quite. If they don't stand in my way, and allow me to take the country back, they aren't my enemy. If they do, they aren't innocent.

Radar 12-31-2007 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe (Post 420378)
I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing.

Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy.
The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police.

Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways.

If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live.

I say it's childish and naive to assume you can make change from within the corrupt machine. It's designed not to change. And those in power work to keep anyone else from ever getting power. America is not a democracy. It never was. For awhile people pretended it was, but it's not; especially with the voting machines being controlled by special interests.

It is my right and my duty to take up arms against any government that violates my rights. You may want to read the Declaration of Independence.

My right to say what I want doesn't come from government so saying I intend to take part in an armed revolution to take the government back online does not prove that I am free. It proves they haven't violated this particular right as of this minute, but they may as they have with so many others.

Chris_Fletcher 12-31-2007 04:31 PM

I'm not against immigration at all. I'm againt immigrants coming in and expecting to be put on welfare systems and get all of the same privaliges as those of us that have been putting into the system or who were born here naturally. Plus....we don't follow the constitution anymore anyways so why is everyone getting so pissed off? We have no true freedom of speech or expression and elected officials pretty much follow their own agendas and get their kick backs so why is everyone worried?we have no true control over anything except our own choices. I'm ready for the revoultion! how bout yall?

TheMercenary 12-31-2007 07:17 PM

Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement.

busterb 12-31-2007 07:18 PM

Welcome Radar Jr.

TheMercenary 12-31-2007 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 420389)
America is not a democracy. It never was.

You are right. It is a Republic. Thank God it is not a Democracy.

Radar 12-31-2007 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 420468)
Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement.

The fact remains that they are not violating the law so they are LEGAL. The indisputable truth is that the federal government has no legitimate authority to create or enforce immigration laws and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

There is no question as to the legality of these immigrants because there are no illegal immigrants in America and there won't be unless the U.S. Constitution is amended to grant the federal government authority over immigration.

Any time anyone uses the term "illegal" to describe undocumented immigrants, they are lying. They most likely have an ax to grind in the form of racism or xenophobia.

Clodfobble 12-31-2007 10:39 PM

Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability:

1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services
2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for
3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for

Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

Ibby 12-31-2007 10:45 PM

NO CUZ THE GUBMENT GIVN ME STUF TAKS AWAY MY RITES

Radar 12-31-2007 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 420523)
Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability:

1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services
2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for
3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for

Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me. I don't support social programs for citizens anymore than I support them for non-citizens. And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Clodfobble 12-31-2007 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar
Option 2 and 3 are the same to me.

Then why would you be fighting to switch from one to the other? Fight about the social programs first, if that's what you want, then immigration will magically take care of itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar
And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Yes, we've had that discussion many times. It's one of the ones where I can provide lots of references, and you provide none. I'm not bothering again. Let's stick with the hypothetical/philosophical argument for once, shall we?


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