God, I seriously don't want to start a Palestine - Israel argument but I want to comment on a single thing.

They do this because the Palestinian people can not support an independent economy for reasons of relocation, loss of motivation, and the shrinking of a state to one fourth its original size and maintaining the fourth (its around there) most dense population in the world.

This is why a two state solution can never work. Palestine can not support its own economy no matter how much they "change" their culture, a mindset I hate because American culture does not change when it needs too either so criticizing them is extremely hypocritical. I will be more than accepting when Americans find a way not to elect liars into national office and not over consume resources.

If they can't support or defend themselves without murdering others, they don't deserve to be an independent nation. Israel can survive fine even if America cut off every dollar of foreign aid and still be able to defend itself against all of its aggressive neighbors.

so you're saying i can buy my neighbor?

Palestinians are very peaceful for how many people live there and the situation they are in. It could be A LOT worse, if all Palestinians revolted there would be A LOT more than a few deaths a month.

Also, you and Rzkenrage have threatened to shoot at the government if they take your guns away, you can not seriously tell me that you wouldn't be blowing shit up if they forcefully relocated you and everyone you love then throw you in a cage where you have no hope for a peaceful life. Most Palestinians are peaceful people who are just being screwed over and then you have others trying to stir shit up making it worse. What you are saying is basically equivalent to saying all Americans believe we should attack any country that disagrees with us because the neo-cons do. But, we should be stopping that shouldn't we....

Imagine a foreigner, and there are these people, saying that the world should support anyone that resists the US because Americans support Bush and what they are doing. How would you react? Oh yeah, and everyone in America should be punished even more because of the actions of Bush.

Ok, I will reword that. I have seen very little change in America except for a few examples where Americans have changed something that they have not been forced to do. But once again, when Americans can stop electing liars into office and stop over consuming resources, it will be much easier to criticize.

That change happened a few centuries after it needed to.

looks like the british government is doing their part helping aid fear against islam:

It is ironic that the US and GB is supporting a state as extreme as Saudi Arabia.

This is NOT a broadcast by the British Goverment. It is by Channel 4 news which is our most liberal news programme.

The voiceover in the report is Krishnan Guru-Murthy, a British Asian (which shouldn't matter, but I thought I would point it out).

The interview is reasonably well balanced in my opinion. It is not spoon fed news, it allows different opinions to be heard. Jon Snow interviews everyone in the same way - the subjects stand up as well as they choose to.

That I agree with.

Frankly I am disgusted that our country awarded the highest possible accolade to the Saudi royals. And that has bugger all to do with whther they are an Islamic nation or not. The Saudi state is a disgrace. It is deeply oppressive, treats women like non-humans in the eyes of the law, practices mutilation as a way to punish thieves (including children), considers homosexuality a crime worthy of barbaric execution and considers a raped woman to be guilty of adultery unless she can produce 4 witnesses. Add that to the fact that many trade unionists and political activists have been imprisoned, without trial and for long periods and tortured and you have a state that is operating so far outside of International law that a civilised country should not be putting out the red carpet for them.

I couldn't give a toss if they're moslems or not, I do give a toss about their utter disregard for human rights.

I agree with Dana.

Though I have heard, and read but I can't find where, that if you are rich in Saudi Arabia, and Iran, you can get away with being gay and that. It does in no way justify what they do but it shows signs of progression.

Not what I'm looking for but here is something.
http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/saud...audinews19.htm

Incidentally. I have been on these boards many times and argued against the rampant Islamaphobia which currently exists in the Uk and I suspect in the US. That said, I find the Wahabi interpretation of Islam to be fundamentally opposed to Western values of human (and in this case human also means female) rights. I will fight to my last breath the rising tide of anti-moslem, racist aggression in this country but I also utterly oppose the the promotion of an interpretation of Islam which dictates that a man has the right and duty to ensure his wife and daughters remain covered up in public, to the point of beating them if they refuse. I object to the idea that children born in this country are taught through, wahabi education programmes and preaching, that women are lesser creatures and that homosexuals deserve to be stoned to death.

"Women should have subordinate positions"

That little girls and little boys are being taught this in my country disgusts me. And I refuse to be labelled anti-moslem because of it. I have moslem friends and they're as appalled by this stuff as I am. I have sat and talked about it with them. It worries them that this kind of extreme teaching is filtering in to otherwise respectable mosques.

Thanks to St Paul, many extremist Christian women are being taught that a woman's place is in the home and subservient to a man. I agree that human rights should always come before religion, especially centuries old paternalistic religions.

I guess that's why we both like Sheri S Tepper, huh?

*laughs* God Bless Sheri! I still think Mavin Manyshaped is why I grew up a feminist....well that and Marion Zimmer Bradley :P

The fact of the matter is the so-called Palestinian people weren't thrown in a cage, aren't oppressed by Israel, have never had any land stolen from them, and are only held back by their own actions. The so-called Palestinians aren't wanted by anyone in the middle-east...not even Jordan where 75% of them came from.

Israel didn't create any "situation" for the Palestinians. They did that on their own.

If the so-called Palestinians chose to revolt and start more widespread violence, it would be their own undoing because Israel is fully capable of destroying each and every single one of them, and all of their surrounding nations without any help from America.

Israel just wants to be left the hell alone. Israel is generous and kind and gives food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. to the so-called Palestinians. Israel allows Arab man and women to live, work, vote, and hold political office even though no Arab nation allows Jews or women to do that...and in most cases, the men can't vote either because they are living in a dictatorship or monarchy.

Israel hasn't "screwed over" the so-called Palestinian people. If anything, the opposite is true. Israel has given...and given...and given in hopes of peace, but you can't make peace with those who don't recognize your right to exist. You can't reason with unreasonable people. You can't make peace with those who would give up everything just to see you dead.

As long as the Arab people get it through their heads that Israel is not going anywhere and attacking Israel will result in their own destruction, everything will be fine.

I think this where you and I will have to agree to disagree Radar. We've had this conversation a number of times over the years and I don't believe either of us have moved our position any *smiles*

Which brings me full circle and explains why it's better for me to just disassociate myself with those who have views I find deeply offensive. It's a better solution than going columbine on them.

And those are the only two options?

I can't help it. When someone says, "Sean Hannity told me to support the president and you're unpatriotic if you don't support the war in Iraq" my only options are to distance myself from them or smash their skull in.

I see. I personally prefer a more middle of the road approach...there are people who actively campaign for racist politics...those I have nothing to do with. I do however have friends who hold mildly racist views.

I hate dishonesty, and I hate racism. So I really hate those who are dishonest about their racism....like those who say, "I don't hate Jews, I just hate Zionism". This is like saying, I don't hate Japanese people, I just hate Japan and all the people who live there or support its right to exist.

No it's not. I know plenty of Jews in the UK are frustrated by the Zionist agenda and are dismayed by the zionist government's treatment of palestinians. One of them works with a Christian woman in my town and organises aid trips to Gaza.

Do you hate Palestinians, or do you hate their attempts to claim particular territory, and the tactics they use?

I don't hate the so-called Palestinian people. I wish them peace, prosperity, and even to be recognized as a nation by the U.N.. I do hate the fact that a significant number of them think it's ok to target women and children in shopping malls for murder. I do hate the fact that no matter how hard Israel tries to peacefully co-exist with them, they are unreasonable and want to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many Jews as possible. I hate the fact that they are more interested in murdering Jews than in peace. I hate the fact that they act as though Israel is a monster for defending itself when they are blowing up Israeli women and children. I hate that many of them are dishonest racists who make baseless and false accusations of apartheid against Israel.

I wish they would act like civilized people and work to build prosperity for themselves and friendship with their neighbors

And the Israeli soldiers who have targetted and shot children?

What about the innocent palestinians whose homes have been destroyed and whose relatives have been killed?

I see very little evidence of Israel attempting anysuch thing.

So you don't hate the people, but you do hate how a certain subset of them behaves with respect to disputes over territory.

Yet you claim that anti-Zionism is the same as anti-Semetism.

Israeli soldiers have never targeted and shot children. They have shot children who had bombs strapped to them, or who were using slings to hurl rocks at speeds that can kill a man. There's never been a case of Israeli soldiers planning an attack against women and children, but there are hundreds of cases of so-called Palestinian people doing exactly this.

Also, the so-called Palestinians who attack Jews, run and hide amongst so-called Palestinian women and children and endanger them so even though Israel does its best to avoid harming women and children, occasionally those who were endangered by terrorists get killed or caught up in the crossfire. Then the so-called Palestinian people claim they are victims of monsters.

As far as destroyed homes go, they were built in disputed territory. Israel has also destroyed the homes of Jewish settlers who have built in such territory.

The relatives killed were killed because they were taking part in the planning or attacking of Israeli people, or because they were endangered by their own people and they got caught up in it. They died not because of Israel's response, but because Israel was attacked in the first place.

You claim to have seen little evidence in Israel trying to peacefully co-exist with their neighbors. This can only mean your eyes are closed.

Israel has offered concession after concession after concession. Israel has offered land, money, support in becoming a state, etc. In 1996 Israel offered to return all land they had won in battles from 1967 forward, and to sponsor a nation of Palestine in the U.N. if only they would go a single week without killing Israeli people.

They couldn't do it. Why? Because they don't want peace. Israel has gone above and beyond. Israel has been patient, understanding, generous, and kind-hearted to those who want them destroyed. Israel has done more than any other country would do. No other nation on earth would allow themselves to be attacked for 60 straight years without simply having an all out war and completely destroying those who attack it.

Israel can't give any more than it already has. The so-called Palestinian people haven't given anything, haven't had anything stolen from them, haven't been victimized by anyone but their own people who put them in danger, and want nothing less than Israel to cease existing. This is unreasonable and even laughable.



Israel uses DEFENSIVE force, and the so-called Palestinian people use OFFENSIVE force.

The overwhelming majority of so-called Palestinians are raised from birth to hate Israel and Jews. The subset we were discussing are those who actually carry out murders.

When you use deadly force in your defense, it's not murder. The so-called Palestinian people are not using DEFENSIVE force, they are using OFFENSIVE (attacking) force against the weakest members of the Israeli community, women and children.

I didn't say Anti-Zionism is the same as anti-semitism. I said Anti-Zionism = Anti-Jew. Arabs are also Semites.

Zionism is the belief that the state of Israel and its people have a right to exist without having its women and children blown to bits. Zionism has never harmed a single person on earth. Anti-Zionism on the other hand means you don't believe this nation has any right to exist or to defend itself when people attack them. It means you believe every nation on earth other than the Jewish one, has a right to exist and defend itself.

How is this NOT anti-Jew?

From the Guardian newspaper:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...220635,00.html

Because "Zionism" is not "Judaism". Israel is a majority-Jewish nation with aspects of Judaism enshrined in law, but it does not speak for all Jews on Earth. You can oppose Zionism and support Jews. You can support Zionism and support Jews. You can be anti-Jew, and support Zionism as a way to get the Jews out of your own country or a way to instigate Biblical Armageddon. Or you can be anti-Jew and anti-Zionism.

Personally, I do support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. I also support the USA's right to defend itself. I don't pretend that either nation always does so in appropriate ways, and I don't think that the behavior of the enemies of either nation excuses any of that nation's bad behavior.

From Jews against Zionism:

The only Jews against Zionism are self-deprecating Jews or rabbis who say Jews can't return to their homeland until after the messiah returns. Israel IS a Jewish state. Saying "I don't hate Jewish people, I just hate Israel" is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than saying, "I don't hate Chinese people, I just hate China...and those who say it has the right to exist and defend itself when attacked."

The Palestinians are perennially crying victim while perennially acting the perpetrator.

No human being should sympathize in any least degree with such behavior or such people, but instead convert them from it or exterminate them for it. I am utterly fed to the teeth with the unfortunate sort of Palestinian, vexed at the neighboring states' refusal to absorb or aid them, preferring to keep them as mudfoots for a proxy-war, and annoyed at the neighboring states' graceless inability to accept what is the new reality. What's so new or particularly so unjust about peoples being moved around by migrations? This has happened before over the millennia. The Jews aren't going to go away. Will it take the death of every Arab in Jordan to drive this home to the idiot fanatics? For Allah's sake, guys, don't drive the Jews of all people to commit genocide. Or can we just settle for killing Islam's idiots off and thereby purifying the religion?

Everyone keeps saying this. Of course there are atrocities on both sides, but WHO IS ON WHO'S LAND??

The argument that it was Israel being awarded land that was rightfully theirs... when was the last time prior to WWII that Israel belonged to the jews? Was it more than a THOUSAND YEARS AGO!?

We as US citizens stake so much claim on our land that we want to keep the unworthy out, but we stole it through trickery and large scale murder piece by piece from it's native tribes. So in a thousand years, do the Sioux and the Cherokee and the other tribes get it back?

There are people alive in Palestine today who were alive when they had their own country. There haven't been any living refugees of the original Israelites for dozens of centuries.

What if a group of people who claimed to have been true descendants of the Gauls demanded their land? Would we just decide to give up all the the land to them? Sorry, france, spain, small pieces of germany, etc. Hope you didn't want that. It belongs to THESE people. They can show you receipts.

I hold no more distaste for how Israel was formed than any other country. All these lines in the dirt are products of murder, thievery, and might-makes-right. Every country on the globe. The part I don't understand is how so many people can blame the palestinians for fighting back!

If the Global community decided to give back the US lands to the native americans, and buy them all the planes trains and guns they needed to keep us subdued... every single one of you real hard core mothers would tie on your bandanna and go Rambo on them, right? Right? But not the palestinians, they're monsters. They throw rocks at soldiers.

What about the SOLDIERS who SHOOT the CIVILIANS? What about bulldozing entire camps because a suicide bomber came in? You say 'they helped plan it.' How the hell do we know that? They said so? There was no investigation, no trial.

I'm not, nor ever would say that the crazy twisted bastards that train kids as soldiers, strap bombs to their chests and blow up cafes are excused or even worth their weight of flesh. The idea that Israel is without blame, doesn't escalate the conflict, and doesn't show blatant disregard for an entire people is so fucking ridiculous it gives me an aneurysm. They're just as twisted as the Palestinian fighters, but they have MUCH bigger guns.

Sorry for the rant. :redface:

How is it that we can separate the American administration from America and Americans in our minds, but not the Israeli government from Israel and jewish people?

It is ok to hate what China does as a nation, it is not ok to hate the Chinese or China. It is ok to hate what America does as a nation...it is not ok to hate America and Americans. It is ok to hate what Israel does as a country...this does not mean hating Israel, Israelis or Jews.

Zionism is not Judaism. Jews are not all Zionists and Zionists do not speak for all the jewsh Diaspora. Zionism doesn't even speak for all Jews in Israel. There are many Israeli Jews working with Palestinians to alleviate their suffering and actively campaigning against their country's far-right, extremist, Zionist stance.

Either Israel is a country just like any other or it is a special case. If it's a country like any other then it can be held to account like any other without that account equating to hatred of the Jews. If it is a special case...does that mean it can do anyting it wants without sanction?

Personally, Radar, I find your stance to be a more anti-semitic stance (sorry anti-jewish) than mine or Queeq's. You have reduced them to a political agenda and held them to be uniquely unnaccountable. To truly see Jews as equal to other 'races' one must hold them to the same standards. You do not do this. You set them aside from the rest of humanity and say no....different rules apply. America is not its administration. Britain is not her Queen. Zimbabwe is not its Dictator. Iraq was not Saddam. Israel is not the Zionist agenda. Zionism and Judaism are two entirely different concepts.

The bottom line is that I can seriously tell you that Americans don't feel 'special' or 'superior' in majority any more than any other counties citizens do about their home. You mean to try to tell me that people in China, UK, Canada, North Korea, Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, or any other country does not exhibit a certain sense of nationalistic pride?? Every country does so. I have spent a lot of time with soldiers from the UK and a few other countries and they are furiously proud and nationalistic about their owns country, as they should be. We have the same pride as others do. Other countries, many, use film and differing levels of propaganda to support their notions of nationalism. Nothing new there.

What we have is difference among governments, not among people and their response to a sense of nationalistic pride. It is the policy and actions of governments, albeit temporary in nature, that get people all bent out of shape and make them want to spew hate toward each other. We are becoming more and more polarized as a nation and as a world.

This has little to do with Islam because you are using a minority of radical islamic believers to define the cause. Most followers of Islam are peaceful and want to be left alone like many other. I am all for our country using whatever means are available in finding these radicals anywhere in the world in any country and hunting them down and killing them. That is not the issue. The issue is that it is a minority of all of those who follow Islam.

Jews are a group of people. Zionism is an ideology. I hate the Nazi ideology but I do not hate the German people. I hate the neo-conservative ideology but I do not have hate the American people. I hate Zionism ideology but I do not hate Jewish people, catch my drift?

Calling people that support Palestinians anti-semitic is just a way to limit free speech by placing that issue into a category no one wants to go into without political suicide. It is no different than calling people who are anti-immigration racist. Sure some people that are anti-immigration are racist and sure, some people who are pro-Palestinians are anti-semitic but to call everyone who are anti-immigration racist or everyone that supports the Palestinian people anti-semitic is not only using cheap dirty, and invalid, arguing techniques, but it disallows a mature intelligent discussion on the topic and disintegrates it to 5-year old yelling and bitching match.

The only way peace can be restored in Palestine is a one-state solution going through a bi-national state. That is the only way to stop the fighting and establish good relations,even though it will be a long road.

And a question:
Do you think the Palestinian actions are proactive or a result of what their lives are like? You can never assume that their standard of living is even close to ours, most have no hope for any future. And remember, groups like Hamas didn't start showing up until the 1980s, a good 30 years after the Israeli state was established.


For the "the Jews deserve a homeland" shit. I understand the Jews have been through the hardest times out of almost any group of people but they knew there would be conflict if an Israeli state was established in Palestine so why the hell do we blame Bush for Iraq when he knew how fucked up it will be but not the Israeli fundamentalists, notice how I do not blame all Israelites, when they knew this sort of conflict would erupt? Quee summed up my other argument very well for that.

Yes, we need to find out what the incentive for people turning to a radical stance is and stopping that. Just going out and killing them probably won't solve much.

It is very different, because "Chinese people" are "people from China". "Jewish people" is not a synonym for "people from Israel".

If the Kurds decide that they want their own country, and claim territory from the nations they are living in, your view on that claim is not synonymous with your view of the Kurdish people.

Why is it that when someone threatens our land or freedom it's ok to do whatever is necessary to get it back but when Muslims do it they're labeled as radicals? Maybe the reason these people become ultra religious is because the only people not trying to “exterminate” them are there fellow Muslims. They don’t just wake up one day and say “I’m tired of living peacefully; I want to be a terrorist”. The reality is most of these people have had their lives ripped apart and have been put through things we can never even begin to understand. We are a very lucky few to be able to live in the types of societies we do, but we have to remember that we make up a very small portion of the demographic.

That is probably true for a lot but I bet some of them would be comparable to conspiracy theorist in the United States. Extremely irrational and, put the in a different situation and I bet this will happen, willing to do anything to achieve what they think is "right".

It has nothing more to do with Islam than abortion clinic bombings have to do with Christianity. They are just in a situation where the incentive to go to such extremes is much higher than in the United States.

Wrong. Israel is the land of the Jews. It's the Jewish homeland in the same way China is the homeland of the Chinese. You can't legitimately separate the two.

The word Palestine doesn't refer to a country, it refers to a physical region. Calling someone a "Palestinian" is like calling people from Colorado "Rocky Mountain People".

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" in exactly the same way there are no "Rocky Mountain People". The Jordanians and other Arabs calling themselves Palestinians lived on the land but so did Jews. Jews have lived on that land constantly since before biblical times. During the years when there was no state of Israel, Jews still lived there. It is Jewish land. During all of the years when there was no state of Israel, the Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" NEVER owned a single square inch of the land. It was owned by various empires, but never the people who lived on the land. In fact none of them owned any land until it was divided by the British empire and shared with the people who were basically squatters and the Jews.

1947 was the first time in history the so-called Palestinians owned any land at all and the land they were given was historically part of Israel so if anyone has a reason to be mad, it's the Israeli people.

Um, no. Not even close. The Jews existed before Israel, and they still exist throughout the world as citizens of their respective nations. Israel is the homeland of the people who live there.

It doesn't matter who lived where historically. Refer to quee's post.

You can not just say, "we lived there 2,000 years ago" so it should be ours now because of the countless other groups of people that have been taken over and moved out. And even so, the Jews have only lived in Israel for 1,000 years out of the past 3,000 since Judaism has only been around for that long. That means that Arabs have been living there for twice as long as the Jews and you say that it is the land of the Jews?

Also, Judaism as it was 2,000 years ago is dead ever since the Romans burned down the temple so there is no need for an Israeli homeland. But, even if there old religion didn't die, no religion or group of people should be given land on the blood of others. If something has already happened, not much we can do but help integrate the populations and that is what we should be doing with Palestine.

Regardless of who controlled the land...individual people owned individual houses and now live in permanent refugee camps, whilst the people who drove them from their homes occupy those houses or houses built upon the land the Palestinian family vacated.

There has never been a minute in the last 3000 years where Jews did not live in the area known as Israel. The Arabs who lived there did not ever own a single grain of sand let alone any actual land. The land was owned by various empires. The Roman, Egyptian, Ottoman, and British empires all owned it at different times.

Those who lived on the land (Jews and Arabs) didn't own the land during these years. When the land was given to them in 1947, it was the first time any Arabs had owned any part of the land they were squatting on.

Israel is the home of the Jews in the same way China is the homeland of the Chinese. To claim otherwise is either dishonest or laughably stupid.

Oh, so if you own land that you don't live on, and I build a house on it. You're the bad guy when you tear down the house and make me leave?

Nope. Jews predate Israel.

If I am the Israelis in this instance then I never owned the land in the first place. Somebody bigger than me stole it from you and handed me the keys.

I always assume Zionists think we should give NY & or FL back to the Native Americans & TX back to Mexico.

If somebody stole my land I'd convince my children to blow themselves up in those people's buses and pizza shops!

Oh, no wait, I wouldn't. I'd get over it. I'd love my children and teach them to love.

What if you and your children were living in cramped unhealthy conditions and they risked a sniper bullet in the head when they left the house?

maybe if i (and my neighbors)didn't send them out with explosives on them i wouldn't have to worry about snipers.

Suicide bombing is a relatively new phenomenon. I do believe it is a response to the brutalising effects of occupation. And the effects are brutal.

it's not a response. it is a choice. a response is when the doctor hits your knee with a hammer and your leg bounces. A causes B. I'm pretty sure that no man, woman, or child has every woken up and thought "this occuption sucks" and spontaneously exploded.

I'm not suggesting that the situation is anything less than shit, but blowing yourself and non-combatants up is not a response to anything other than a persons fucked up allegiance to a misguided notion.

My brain did. You can see evidence of it all over this message board.

Yep. Chinese people predate China, but China is still the home of the Chinese people exactly the same way that Israel is the homeland of the Jews.

No, if you're Israel, someone stole it from you, someone stole it from them, someone stole it from them, and then that person broke it in pieces and give you some of it back.

Excellent point, though to be more accurate, the land was never yours to begin with so it wasn't stolen from you. :)