I've done worse. (Only half the dining room so far... we were moving stuff around to accommodate a new china cabinet, and it seemed silly to not do it while the space was empty.)

OK handy people - I have finished the kitchen, front window, pergo flooring in the dining area, replaced 6 doors, skim coated the entire downstairs and the painting has commenced. (Pics to folow if I can figure out the camera) My question is that I'm thinking of installing a vent fan in the attic. The one that goes out the roof. I'm fine indoors, but cutting a hole in my roof scares the hell outta me. Any help, suggestions tips and so on?

Why a roof fan? Is this to ventilate the attic to reduce cooling costs? Or is this to vent a bathroom, or kitchen stove, etc.?

Attic ventilation - Its been a big help to a lot of neighbors while saving money and all too - so I'm thinkin about it.

Are you sure a roof fan is your only/the best option?

In many cases, putting in soffit vents and a ridge vent for passive air circulation is more than enough and then you don't have the electricity charges later. The hot air rises and goes out the ridge and is replaced by cool air drawn into the soffits. The beauty of a ridge vent is that even though you are cutting a long slot at the peak of the roof, there is very little water to deal with at the peak. So you just nail or screw the ridge vent down. You don't need to worry about flashing around the opening. Some are even low profile so you don't notice them.

http://www.pondroofing.com/images/se...nt_airflow.gifhttp://www.pondroofing.com/images/se...ridge_vent.jpghttp://www.pondroofing.com/images/se...ffit_vent4.jpg

If you check out building science's web site, they have a lot of detailed information on the best way to ventilate an attic. They believe in soffit vents and ridge vents. I don't know where you live, but they have lots of different models for the best way to build houses in various locations. Here's an example for a house in Charlotte, N.C.

Another option is to put gable vents in the attic walls at the ends of the house. You don't really have to worry about water there either. You can put one in each end, and get cross breezes, or you can put a fan in as well.

I don't know your house layout, or your location, but for my house, a powered roof fan would be the last option. They are ugly, consume electricity, and you have to worry about flashing around them so they don't leak.

Don't forget that you need to put a vent somewhere else to let air into your attic to replace any air you try to blow out. If you don't, you can suck air from inside your home, and this is often replaced by air back drafting down your chimney. Carbon monoxide is a concern then.

I don't know about ridge vents, but the one really important thing with gable vents is to make sure you put window screening on the inside, no matter how narrow the slat openings are. Birds can and will get in, despite manufacturer's claims. But we found our gable vents to be very effective, once we screened them. :)

Absolutely. We have the heavy gauge wire screens protecting our gable vents. squirrels were chewing through them, and birds were building nests, but the wire screen stopped that.

Another great Cellar thread!!!!

I have talked a ton of projects myself(Here are some). Partly cause I am hard-headed and not to mention lack of extra funds to pay someone else to do the work. On the Handyman scale, I would put myself around 4.5......teetering on a 5.

I do have a hoard of tools and could do it for a living. I choose not to because I have other people that depend on me( 2 kids and a wife). If I was a single guy, I think I would be in some kind of construction trade. Im not knocking the construction trade, but it can get cut-throat

Wow - thanks glatt - I'm in the Philly suburbs, in a townhome (middle unit).I have soffit vents and ridge vents - The air just doesn't seem to move and its like 200 degrees up there - It is at least 20 degrees more than my neighbor who has a fan also. He says he saves about $200 a year since he got it - I have heard similar things from other neighbors as well.

Middle unit of a town home, huh? I guess that rules out gable vents.

Have you inspected the soffit vents? Are they blocked with insulation? If they are clear, then I guess a roof fan really is your best bet.

To be honest, this is the kind of thing I avoid. I've never cut a hole in my roof and flashed around it. I know they have those sticky rubber membranes for flashing around things like this, but I understand metal flashing is even better. Only problem with metal flashing is you need a metal break to bend it, and I'm not sure you can rent one. I'd probably use the sticky rubber membrane to seal things up, and then patch in the shingles.

Maybe somebody else will have better advice.

Couldn't you put a fan on the inside of the attic, pointed out through your existing vents? Like glatt, I too would be terrified to have anyone but a professional cut a hole in my roof.

I've installed fan vents, soooo easy. Just drill a hole for your SawzAll, cut the hole and drop it in, caulk and go.
The new, super-light, turbine (or rotary) vents are AWESOME for problem areas! They don't rust and don't need a lot of wind to work, the new bearing systems are slick.
I used to put them in in five min. and they save serious ducats.

Great now we all agree that cutting a whole in your roof is scary baaaaddd. OK, I'll go back into the attic and check all the soffits for good air flow. It would be great to have the vent fan, but because of money I can't pay for it to be done. There must be a way to get the air moving - thats what I think the real issue is. It is so stagnant up there its unreal. I feel like throwing a box fan up there just to move the air around. Do they even make fans for this type of installation? Could I set it on a timer somehow? If I could get the air to move that has got to help - no? The upstairs of my house is also at least 5 to 7 degrees warmer than the first floor - thats what I'm also trying to rectify. The return vents are fine - I already checked them.

**Oops - I posted this before I saw rk's post.**

I know you have done this and I haven't, but I would never trust caulk alone to keep a hole in my roof water tight. Flashing is needed.

Edit: Flashing around a fan, depending on the shape of the fan, will be much like flashing around a skylight.

OK, rk - So I go to Lowes, Buy the vent fan....and what else? I must need electrical and stuff and so on. Can you give me an idea so I can get a grasp of the overall scope in order to budget time and whatnot.

You can pm so this is not a total hijack. Speaking of which - does this move me up or down on the scale?

First off:

I DIDN'T DIE!!! YAY!

Now that I've let all the drama out of this episode, let's examine what did actually happen.

After rolling out the first course, I immediately faced the prospect of dealing with the valley. I read about different styles to handle this area, and the one that I decided on was called interwoven. Basically, the roofing material crosses the valley completely, then the next higher course is applied from the opposite side of the valley, and that is repeated until the valley is completely covered. The main benefits of this process as I see it are very complete coverage of the valley, multiple thicknesses of roofing material cover the area; and that the ends of each of the courses are all covered when woven together this way.

In the last picture of the roof, you can see I've rolled the long stretch along the gutter and up across the valley. The next course is higher up and is along the opposite side of the valley. It's just a short section and it too rolls from the eave across the valley. Then again along the long axis with another big roll.

Pic 01: Course number three just finishing. You can see the weaving effect beginning.

Pic 02: Close up of the finished edges of the start of the weaving.

More of the weaving.

Pic 01: Better wider shot of the valley weaving midway through (four courses in place). Notice the second course going from the upper right to the lower left has been trimmed flush with the uppermost edge of the third course. I don't know if this was a good idea or not, but it was neater. It didn't seem to me that the extra material would help since it was already underneath the uphill edge of the layer above, so I cut it.

In this picture you can also see my hillbilly MacGuyver tool bag-o-nails. The boxes were worthless. When they were dry, they tried to slide off the roof. When they were wet, they disintegrated and let all the nails slide off the roof individually. So I got a rag, folded a little pouch in it and "sewed/pinned" it up with a nail. Voila! The sag and the fabric were sufficiently rough and irregular that it just sat where it splat. I picked up the uphill corner and moved it each time.

Pic 02: Wide shot of three courses of weaving. Number 1--long course on left. Number 2--short course at the bottom. Number 3--long course on the right.

Course five's debut.

Pic 01: By following the regular plan to extend each course completely across the valley, course five reached the opposite lower ridge. I cemented it (not shown) and nailed it in place.

Pic 02: Valley shot, course four not visible. The valley is 90% covered at this point. I won't weave the next course, but just head straight uphill.

The lower 3/8 of the roof is covered now, and I'm above the level of the valley. It's all straight rolling now.

Pic 01: The first three rolls along the long axis of the roof. Looks pretty neat and tidy.

Pic 02: This is how these rolls all started (except the first cause I rolled it up backwards). I started out at the edge and tacked it into place and then began to unroll it in small increments, measuring and adjusting and tacking as I go.

These rolls are very heavy. They probably weigh 75 pounds. I was very very careful to keep the axis of the roll perpendicular to the slope of the roof. I needed to adjust the position of the roll so that I had a 12 inch overlap. This was a generous overlap, the instructions were for just four inches. If some's good, more's better, eh? Anyway, it made for a narrower exposed surface, 24 inches, and it looked nice. But I had to be careful to start the roll at the right "altitude" and to roll straight so I had even lines. I hesitate to use the word "level". I didn't use a level on this whole project. I have a long level, a four footer, but I didn't trust that I could have a level roof so I didn't bother. I also didn't have enough hands for another tool. I found this to be a problem when I began to cement the rolls down. But I digress.

I don't have the pinch strength to grip this roll and drag it uphill, so I used my foot. I bumped it into place, maybe a little low, then used my toe to ease it up to my mark. Then tack. Roll it out a little. Measure again. Tack a couple of nails again. Roll. Measure. Adjust. Tack. Repeat. Not surprisingly, the roll wanted to roll downhill. I found I had to lift it each time with my toe.

Pic 01: In position to lift the roll with my right foot.

Pic 02: Measuring my 12 inch overlap.

Here is the last roll to cross the valley. This material is pretty rigid. As you can see it does sag a little across the valley, but it doesn't drape like, say, satin.

Pic 01: Across the valley, before trimming and nailing.

Pic 02: The material can have "wrinkles". This is the result of a too long rollout before measuring again and having to make a large adjustment. I found some of these wrinkles on the lower edge like this one and on the upper nailed edge. It was surprisingly difficult to roll out this material straight. Sometimes, I went back and tore out the tacks between the wrinkle and the end and reajusted it without the wrinkle. Sometimes I just nailed the crap out of the bulge, hammering it into submission.

Coming up to the end of the last roll to cross the valley. This was a good stopping point for me.

Pic 01: Makeup!

Pic 02: I'm ready for my close up now!

The weatherman was right on target. Rain. This stuff is as slick as it looks, and I didn't die (!!!) but I don't know how I managed it. Basically, I sat down and scooted everywhere. I was quite wet by the time I was done.

Pic 01: Wet roof.

Pic 02: Lovely wet roof and no safety net.

Eventually, I got all the rolls rolled out and nailed down. They look all straight and purty, don't they? Even the valley looks good.

Pic 01: Wide shot of covered (but unfinished) roof.

Pic 02: Wide shot of functional if wrinkly valley.

So those edge strips I nailed to the roof? Here's where they get to do their job. I've rolled back the installed course and I'm preparing to cement the edge along the rake to the edge strips.

Pic 01: Edge strips.

Pic 02: Asphalt roofing cement.

This stuff is tar. Pitch. Asphalt. Black gold. Texas tea. Movie stars, swimming pools. Wait, sorry, back up. This stuff is really just tar. Goobery gooey **messy** stick tar. I had two grades of this stuff, #11 and #33. Grade #11 is "pourable". I guess. In warmer climes. With patience. Grade #33 is the consistency of old, cold Play-Dough. I mixed the two together and hawked a glob out there and then mashed it flat-ish. I repeated this process for the lower edges of all the strips.

Pic 01: Cementing down the eaves. (bringing in the sheaves, we shall go rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves)

Pic 02: Got to glue down the lower edge of the strip to keep the wind from lifting it up and tearing it off. You can easily see in this picture the residual moisture from where the upper course covered the lower one. This made for a nice guideline as to where to (and where not to) apply the cement.

It was twice as messy and eight times as dangerous and difficult as it looks. I don't think I did this part right.

I believe it is effective, but there's got to be a better way of applying this shit. As I said before, I didn't have enough hands for my tools at the rolling out stage, and adding a big can of tar and a trowel and a hammer and a ragbag of nails and the roll and the tape measure and don't fall off and kill yourself--too much.

But I think I made extra work for myself by not doing it in one pass. Lifting this strip is heavy, a hassle, and frankly, this stuff isn't made to be flexed and hassled this way. It sheds the mineral coating at best, and cracks and tears at worst. Bad idea.

I tried folding it up, and painting the lower surface, folding it up and painting the underside of the lifted layer. I built a little jig to hold up the strip (worthless). I tried reaching over and painting downhill, I tried moving below the strip and lifting it and holding it up with my back as I sat underneath it. This last one was a Bad Idea. I didn't like or need any "help" moving me towards the ground. No thank you.

Pic 01: Middle progress picture of best method. When I was above the valley, the whole strip could be flexed over, held with my ankles/calves, and I could paint/scoot/paint/scoot. Worked ok.

Pic 02: Do you see the straight edges of the courses? Do you see some light brown curving lines? They look like water stains, yes? Those lines are the piles of the mineral coating that flaked off when the strip was curled for cementing. Bad. Imagine a sheet covered with sand. Now lift one side of the sheet. The sand will flow dowhill and you're left with a drift / high water mark of sand. Same thing here.

A couple of small mistakes still visible after all my work.

Pic 01: A wrinkle that I didn't notice or didn't bother to rework. Too bad. It's a feature now. And that black blob? You guessed it. Tar. I **dropped** the trowel at one (only one) point. As it went skidding and cartwheeling toward the gutter, I managed to pin it with my downhill foot. Saved myself a round trip to the grass below, but I did leave a mark on the roof and on my work shoe. There are a couple of small thumbprints on the roof too from my gloved hands, but this one is the most noticeable.

Pic 02: The valley already has a crack in it. I will probably pave it over with some of that good old #33, forsaking form for function. It'll be dry, but highly visible. Maybe I'll sculpt it in the shape of a mole. Or my initials. Or something the squirrels and crows will find amusing.

WOW _ that looks like a ton of work and waaaay more than I could imagine tackling. Seems like you are doing a good job - congrats!

Very cool! Too bad about the crack. Otherwise, looks great!

Man, that's a lot of work. I've replaced a few missing shingles here and there, and going up on the roof to do work is a lot like doing work in outer space or under water. The simplest jobs are much more difficult when you are spending so much energy trying to stay alive. Not to mention trying to avoid getting yourself covered in tar.

And you took your camera up there too. Talk about complicating things. Did you take your good camera up there with all that tar splattering around and stuck to your hands, or an old obsolete one?

Buy stepping down the valley with strips, it's not smoothly supporting the overlap and any pressure will cause it to fail(crack). Good thing there are no goats on the roof.

Rather than risking life and limb, send the kids up and supervise from your neighbors upstairs window. Besides, if they fall off, you can make more.

You've got more balls than me, I put scaffold along the whole lower edge.

I'm very handy, got tha' crispy towel to prove it!

Hello friends!

Time to revisit this thread. What you've seen here represents the southern exposure of my roof. But the roof has a nearly identical north side, which I've been able to ignore, and an eastern exposure that can no longer be ignored. Just as sunburned as the old southern side. I have decided to take advantage of the Labor Day weekend and labor on the roof.

I got a late start today due to a combination of procrastination and rain. Finally I got up there and started the semi-tear off. Pictures to follow, I promise. I'm too pooped to offload and upload just now.

This stretch has a similar valley, and it's in shit shape. A couple of places I was able to see into the attic. Fucking fuck. I got 90% of the tear off done then my sister and my mom showed up. I went to dinner with them, then came home to find all of my motivation gone, completely gone!

Tomorrow, *I promise*, I'll finish the tear off, and get the paper nailed down, and the edges "shingled". xoB, I reread your remarks about the difference between nailing down a series of "shingles" versus a single or even two long strips. I think the original recipe that I followed was written for three tab shingles.... That would account for how they described how to reinforce the perimeter of the area to be roofed. I think the goal is to have an extra layer of roofing material around the very perimeter. I don't think it matters if it's shingled ever nine fucking inches. I'm going to cut strips across the long axis of the roll material, giving me 36" "shingles". That will cover the ground a LOT faster, and a lot straighter. I'll still overlap it but I think this will be just as effective and more efficient.

This new section will also need a metal valley. Or not. Shit, I don't know. I might just fill the channel with some rigid expanding foam and then interleave it like before. Otherwise I'm in for a lot of cutting and a lot of fiddly bits on the one side of the valley. Also new on this phase of the project will be the replacement is "hips". Convex sections of the roof that need to be covered. I'll figure this out tomorrow. I'm rapidly running out of gas. See you all tomorrow.

fuck me, a handy thread! how did I miss this. I'm building my woodshed right now, I rig up electrical stuff that hasn't been invented yet, I tear out load bearing walls cause I CAN, butt..... no time for this, I must read this thread, I'm way too excited.

Question:
Why did you bother to cut all those lapped valley strips rather than run a full width section down the valley? I guess you don't get ice dams in Seattle. Still, it seems like an awful lot of extra work.

I'd put a metal valley down if you get ice dams or loads of snow, or if the sheathing in the valley isn't very even. Over time the heat on the roof causes the roofing material to sag and it will eventually drop into any cavities or unsupported areas. One reason for metal valleys. But around here we use "IKO ice and water shield" on valleys, eaves, and rakes. Some folks cover their whole roofs with it. You could probably get away with just a strip of roll roofing on top of 30# felt.

Looks good.

Answer:

I bothered because that was how I was instructed by the wrapper on the roll. One full width section down the valley would have accomplished the same thing. There would have been minor differences, the number of thicknesses, a crack in one can't spontaneously migrate to a crack in the next unlike a single section, super extra wide for a strip vs narrower protection offered by the "shingles", etc. A trade off. The real answer to your good question is that at the time of this project, I'd had exactly zero roofing experience. This whole project was "by the book" PLUS my own compulsion to overengineeer stuff like this.

That valley will *never* leak. The old roof is still there (and it was intact when I put this new roof on), multiple interleaved shingled layers of roofing paper (#15 I think) plus the handmade valley shingles, plus the roll roofing material is overlapped perpendicularly across the whole valley, plus each parallel course overlaps the other by 12 inches, secured by the tar roofing adhesive. 'Cause that's just how I roll (out the roofing material).

In the next section, I did have some much more troublesome valley work. The pitches of the two roof sections were not the same, and on one section the pitch changes, causing it to both bend upward and curve to the side (like a chine on a boat in the transition between the side of the hull amidships as it approaches the bow). Additionally, shingles over this valley were rotten and the metal valley itself was rotten (daylight into the attic--very not good). You'll see in a bit how I dealt with this one, but I used a product that might be similar to your IKO material. I'm happy with the choice so far.

And thanks for the compliment!

The main ridge of my roof runs east-west. This means there is a very big southern exposure, reroofed in Aug 2007, chronicled here in earlier posts. And an equally large northern exposure that gets a LOT less sun, and is just as antique as the rest, but in less tragic condition. There is a third smaller section of the roof that slopes down from east to west, toward the street. This section should have been redone when I did the south side, but the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune conspired toward a different end.

So Labor Day of this year was my last best chance to fix this before I got in trouble this winter. Saturday and Sunday I spent in semi-tear off mode.

Pic 01: the view from the street. Nasty.

Pic 02: the view from the roof. Much worse than I thought. Silver lining: the more roof that has been eroded and corroded and irradiated away, the less I have to tear off, right? I'm really late, but not too late. I hope.

Also in pic 02 you can get a better feel for the more complicated shape of this section of the roof. This picture is taken from the ladder at the southeast corner of the house, looking to the north. The horizontal hip is over the dining room, which is over the garage. The two slanted hips point to the corners of the dining room. The wide flatter area in the foreground is over the living room.

I have been diligently tearing off the exposed parts of the old shingles. This leaves half the shingle on the roof. The half that stays behind is the stapled to the roof half, the half that hasn't seen any daylight until now. This is how I made the surface "smooth" in preparation for the new roof. It was dirty work and I made a big mess as I tossed the broken shingles down off the roof onto the grass, the sidewalk, the steps, the junipers, the driveway, the gutters (for all the foul tips).

Pic 01: Here is my helper, SonofV, bringing me the power cord. Power cord for what, you ask?

Pic 02: The power cord to run the leaf blower, of course. I *KNOW* I got some strange looks from the folks walking their dogs who looked up to see me hosing down the roof with a jetstream of loud air. But that sand is really, *really* slick on the slanted surface of the roof, and a hundred times worse on the tarpaper to come. I was very diligent about keeping it "clean". Here you can see what I've revealed from the tear off, and my push broom and my power broom. Looks better already, doesn't it?

This section of the roof has a valley. Because of the geometry of the roof, the valley curves in two directions, upward and to the left when viewed from the uphill side. Because of this, I could not use a single piece of metal. I had to piece together a valley from individual pieces.

Pic 01: The original (now cleaned up) valley. It was in shit shape. The metal that was at the bottom paper thin, very fragile, torn and broken in many places and I could see into the attic. Not good. This pic is looking uphill at a section of the straightest part of the valley.

Pic 02: Here you can see a couple of the sections. They are galvanized steel, twelve inches square, bent into a 90 degree vee. I took one edge and pushed it under as much of the shingles I could then lifted the shingles on the other side and pushed the other edge under them. I was unconcerned about deforming the metal. The vee stayed intact in all of them, and that was the important part. Also important was the need to start at the lowest part of the valley, and shingle them as I worked my way uphill. I overlapped them by a couple inches each. I continued this process all the way up to the top of the valley.

I don't think I've ever seen shingles that bad on a house before. Was the roof leaking?

My grandfather-in-law had shingles worse than that, but they were on his stomach.

Only when it rained.
(rimshot)

No, I don't think so. I haven't seen any evidence of leaking, but then I didn't actually go into that very low clearance section of the attic to see. It certainly is possible. At the valley, it is higher in the attic, but I still haven't checked. My denial remains intact, even if the roof in this section is not.

The shingles are (were) in terrible shape. But a lot of the decay has taken place in the last three years. If you go back and look at posts 28, 29 and 82, you can see a bit of this part of the roof. The shingles were definitely old then, but not nearly as bad as they were two weeks ago.

Also, haha to SN. Right you are, my friend.

Also, to SN, xoB and others, this site, HammerZone, better living through handy-man-lyness, was extremely instructive to me when I did the first phase of this project. I re-found the website when I followed up on IKO ice and water shield.

Also, regarding the edge strips, I think this is the best way to do it. Because if I was cutting very long strips, the length of the house, then I have a much bigger handful to manage up on the roof. Plus, think about where I'd cut them from--nine inches off the width of how many feet of a whole roll? Where would I cut the next long strip from? From the end of that cut? Or the next nine inches of width? What if the two sections were not the same length? Now I have a stair step edge on the roll. And how much will be usable after I make these long strips? How much wastage will there be?

With cuts nine inches wide off the end of the roll, I'm always going to have the rest of the roll to work with, whether I need to cut another nine inch wide strip or I need to roll out the material to cover the area of the roof. Just some thoughts.

We are going to re-roof my daughters home soon. Her roof has similar valleys and peaks.
In looking at your pics, your old shingles were in worse shape than hers. But we have been planning a complete tear-off.

I'm wondering if you had it to do over, would you do a complete tear-off, or what was the deciding factor for you to trim the old shingles as you did ?

Hi Lamplighter

There were a few factors that influenced my decisions as you've seen here. A tear off is a BIG DEAL. It's a lot more work. It's a LOT more trash. I learned that a roof can be re-roofed up to twice, for a total of three layers/roofs. I'm at 3 1/2 roofs. In my case, a tear off would have taken longer and cost more and been much more difficult and much more work. Bleurgh.

But the killer was the fact that my original shake shingle roof was applied onto skip sheathing. Do you know what this is? With the roofing material off, the top of my house would look like it was covered with latticework. If I took it down that far, I would have had to put plywood decking onto the roof if I wanted to use roll roofing or even three tab shingles, since that stuff won't work over the skip sheathing. That was just TOO MUCH to contemplate. I rely on the old roofs to be my "decking". The major downside to this strategy is that it is heavy. Cedar and two old three tab rooves under the roll roofing is heavy. I am hoping it's not too heavy. We get about the same amount of snow load as you do, so I think/hope I'll be ok.

A tear off is a good, complete way to do things. But I wasn't prepared for job that big.

Big, that explains a lot.
I do know what you mean about the "lattice" sheeting and the extra work of putting down plywood. Ugh.
My daughter's place already has plywood sheeting and only one layer of 3-tabs.

I helped with a tear-off of a church roof many years ago, and it was a lot of work.
But with that special tool from hardware store I'm hoping it won't be quite as bad.

We probably will go ahead with the tear-off because trimming all of those (>30 yr)
old tiles seems slower and overwhelming handwork.
I'll let you know how it goes.

V, Be sure you sell that house long before it needs a new roof. And mum's the word.

3 1/2 layers is an aweful job, but there are companies back east (I'd bet there are companies where you live) that just do tear offs. One day. Done, clean, debris removed. you are ready to go.

My BIL looked into it and it was almost as cheap as the cost of a dumpster and hiring one guy to help him.

Come On V !!!
Put yer big boy Pants on ,
Knutt up and strip ALL that half Assed Shit OFFFFFFFF !!
deck it and Roof it !!!

Dont band Aid what Needs fixing !!!

I Know its a Pain in the ass , ( so's a drip at 2am in the winter )
And Costs more $$$ than you want ,
But it will add to the Value of yer house
And be Less of a Pain int the Ass in the long run .

I'll call you Zippy, next time I'm waffling about whether to do a job right!

Watching, with much interest. Ain't never gonna be a roofer, but time was I hung some rock. Dusty sort of work.