Immigration is a legal issue, nothing more.
I am all for legal immigration, good for them, I'm happy they are here.
I don't care where someone is from, there is only one human race regardless how much melanin they may, or may not, have... as long as they do not break the law.

It is not a fact that all Native American groups came from somewhere else--only a theory. So far, DNA and language roots of some groups can be traced to other origins, but not all.

rk, you said you broke the law when you jaywalked...I don't care where you're from, either, but what should we do with you? :rolleyes:

It is a fact. There are theories on what paths they took, but they did come from somewhere else.

I paid the fine.

Yes, there are theories based on very good evidence that some, even many, groups came from somewhere else, particularly Asia. But all the evidence found so far doesn't support as fact that all groups came from somewhere else.

Whoa Nellie. I've always been told that mankind started in Africa. Everyone on Earth is descended from that spot. Are you saying there was more than one beginning????

Yeah, and mankind starting in Africa is a theory. A widely-accepted theory, but a theory nonetheless.

So is gravity.

That DNA project, National Geographic is doing, is looking for people that didn't decend from Africa as one of their goals. I'm under the impression that all the Indians they tested are tied to Asia. Maybe the Asians started here. Interesting.

Yes it does.

Flint, I gotta say, I'm pretty disappointed with your point. I thought you were really gonna go somewhere, show us some new stuff, or something... Your facts are exactly what I was taught in school. :(

And further;

No it doesn't.

Widely accepted because there is no evidence of it starting anywhere else. Sort of like the clovis first theory being based on a lack of evidence of anyone coming before, until recently. Its amazing, but for almost a century no one bother to dig past the clovis layer because they assumed there would be nothing there. Crazy.

One theory of pre-clovis people suggests that the first americans were austrailians.

OK HM, I look forward to reading your fact-proving dissertation.

Wow, I hadn't seen the Australian origins thing before--how interesting.

How about European origins?

The Smithsonian suggests that too--the "X factor" (long, but worth a read).

I'm not going to squabble over semantics. I don't have anything to say about archeology. I won't try to impress you with any fancy links or quotes I Googled to "prove you wrong" ... it doesn't have a thing to do with what I'm talking about here.

If you take a few steps back and look at the big picture, you might see all the meaningful discussions we could have had about the nature and origins of our American culture. Am I allowed to respond to that one?

What I've been discussing is a comparison of primary historical sources (what people who were actually there wrote about what was happening at the time of our two cultures meeting) versus the feel-good narrative provided by history textbooks.

In answer to your question: an honest, balanced look at history would serve us best. Today, we don't have that.

You, like anyone, can respond to anything you feel you want to, but why bother to defend yourself against things you weren't accused of?

When you starting adding detail to K-12 history books, where do you stop?
If I was back in school, I'd be mad as hell if I had to read all those primary sources. There was quite enough crap I was expected to remember.

History text books are outlines of the subject. It's sufficient to say Jefferson wrote the constitution without speculating on his inspiration or comparisons to all the other systems in detail, until you're a college history major.

It would be naive to think the people writing those primary sources didn't have bias of their own, or were necessarily aware of parallel events impacting, or being impacted by, what they were witnessing. While they are the best description of the play by play, the effect on history sometimes isn't understood for decades or longer.

If you think whites are the only racists, you have a problem. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are two of the most racist people on the planet, but because they are black it's okay. Racism is racism no matter what color your skin is. For as much as so many blacks talk about how bad it is, they exhibit racist speach quite a bit and get away with it thanks to the Clinton administration.
Why didn't we see this in the news? If it were whites that killed two blacks the whole nation would shut down and some racist blacks like Sharpton and Jackson would be demanding a national day of mourning.

News Coverage? Not on your life!!!

There is no need to post the entire article when you already started a thread with it, just link it.
http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php...036#post350036

There are a few things you have to remember, all racism or discrimination (you can play with words) produced by blacks or minorities is in response to white supremacy. It is still bad but you can not attack a product, you have to go for the source.

Second, while blacks may get some media attention (I'm sure it can go the other way around as well...whites get more news coverage then blacks), they are still discriminated against in almost every respect in American society. The way we are raised and taught in schools, especially suburban, teaches whites to be white supremacist.

Every law that is supposed to help minorities is just a kick in the balls. AA helps white women more than minorities. Black History Month is a plain out insult. Hopefully you can agree that every month is white history month so we in return give them one? Why isn't every month black history month just like it is white history month?

The groups like NAACP, while I sometimes disagree on how extreme they can go, are, usually, trying to point out racism by whites like the situation with the "nappy headed hoes". Their "race" (I don't believe in race) has so many negative stereotypes that this will hurt them more because there aren't many negative stereotypes about whites.

If you want to play with definitions you can say that only whites can practice racism and blacks can only discriminate because only whites have the power to control people now. I don't totally agree with that but it works 95% of the time.

I really hope you don't believe that blacks have it easier than whites because of stupid things like the nappy headed hoe comment and the controversy that followed. The playing ground for blacks and whites are not even close to even so don't get too worked up over this.

The events you posted are tragic but it works the other way around like I mentioned before. I wouldn't classify anything you said as racism, just selective news coverage.

So you want to get technical, but not too technical... got it.
I'm sorry Flint, I wasn't trying to fuck up your thread, but it is some facinating shit... I didn't have to google - I've been follwing the Kennewick story for years. I'm pretty sure I've posted about it before too, in reference to McCain's pandering.
And I took my kid's to the PA State museum in Harrisburg a few weeks ago, where they have an exhibit (reconstruction) of the Meadowcroft rock shelter - I've been thinking about it, and how long man has been on this continent ever since.

So anyway, carry on, don't let me stop you from having your meaningful discussion. :3eye:

AAAAaaahhaaaahahahahahahaah!!!!!

Yeah, I agree with Edge. I was working for Hurricane Relief and I saw some racism on both sides. I don't care really about where it all came from anymore. Yes, I'm aware of all the arguements and history. The fact remains:They were both wrong and I don't want to hand out excuses for this type of bad behavior to anyone anymore. I'm not going to go into any particulars of the incidents, but it was very political and very racist.
Did you know that some people here in New Mexico openly refuse to do business with white people? I was told by a client that they were going to give all their money to "their own kind". Yeah, I wasn't too happy.

Correlation does not equal causation. In almost every single set of success/failure statistics gathered, the imbalance disappears when you control for socioeconomic status, not race. That is, the playing field is not level for poor people, not blacks. Solve the economic issues, and the perceived racism disappears.*


*As an example of how to do this, in Texas everyone who graduates in the top 10% of their class gets automatic admission to any state university. Doesn't matter if they graduated from the poorest ghetto high school and couldn't hold a candle to the bottom 25th percent of a rich suburban school. This way kids who do the best they can with the environment they're born into are given a chance to succeed, regardless of their race.

While I somewhat agree with you, when the poor schools are 98% non-white, it is very difficult to keep race out of it. It is very difficult to separate racism from classism today because you can make a racist law in the form of a classist law since a big majority of the poor are non-whites. White supremacy is still around and that can be seen because of white privilege.

That is a very good idea. I am certain that racism in this country will go away when the classes (upper, middle, lower) are all racially integrated.

You are drinking the Kool-Aid my friend. Blacks in the US do not want equality, they want to be the masters and make whites the slaves, only then will they be happy. I am all for equality, but role reversal and discriminatory behavior by large groups of blacks, reinforced by stereotypes that their black hommies have taught them are not the cause of The White Man Keeping Them Down. The only people keeping them down are the people who need to profit off of such situations, the Farakan's, Jessie Jackson's, and Sharpton's of the world. MLK would roll over in his grave if he could see how his great ideas have been bastardized by so called "civil rights" leaders of today. Blacks have no one to blame for their failure to take advantage of the opportunities afforded minorities in the US but themselves. Choose other very successful legal immigrants, and some illegal, and the examples of their ability to grab hold of opportunities and advance their own personal success abound. Stop playing the race card and tell them to make something of themselves.

Merc, please tell me you didn't mean the whole black population.

If you said some want to switch the roles around I would agree with you but from the people I've talked too, that is not true. Most just want equality and not to be discriminated against just as most whites want the same for them.

This is much easier said then done. To start from the bottom to get to top or even the middle is extremely hard for anyone. They have social pressures that are unheard of in most white schools and there is a feeling of hopelessness for many of their futures.

If you talk to kids in mostly white schools and ask them what they want to be in the future, many say doctors or lawyers while if you go to a mostly black school and ask the same age kids the same questions you will get more basketball players and rappers*. This is a prime example of a social force that is holding blacks down, not the poor, because of representation. It is a trap that will hurt them until something is changed.

It is our job to help get rid of the white supremacy and it is their job to take advantage of that when they do get an equal chance.

*I got this from an essay I read in English class this year. I tried to find the essay but I can’t, it may not be open to the public or I just can’t find it. It explained the struggles of minorities in America very well

No, I don't mean to imply that anymore than you do when you make generalizations about the white population.;)

And this is the fault of white people? This is a cultural failing on their part. What is the percentage of two parent families in black culture? How about teen pregnancy? Drug use, crime? Sooner or later the Black culture will need to stop blaming others for their situations and look for solutions within. Few black leaders have stepped up to the plate to call their own culture on these short comings, I know Bill Cosby has, other than that, not very many.

I would agree, but note that changes will not occur until blacks recognize that many of the problems that exist today are problems that they are responsible for, not some esoteric White Man on a plantation keep them down.

I meant white by white-controlled system. It is something that neither of us have any control over.

Well, do you think that the majority of "systems" that are "white controlled" are controlled with the thought of "whiteness" and how can we oppress blacks today? I am not about to state that discrimination does not occur. I am just saying it is a two way street and that we need to stop blaming others for our current plight in life and that much of the current situation is the fault of our own upbringing. I am one that believes that hard work and determination can overcome much of these lost opportunities. I see it all the time.

For the people with power (as of now) , it is only a one-way street because only whites have power.

The white supremacy is institutionalized, that is the problem, we don't notice it. You don't have to be against minorities to hurt them, you just to not have to notice that you are thinking that (white=normal and white=better) subconsciously.

I need to stress the last word again, subconsciously.

I think you give it to much credibility. I think that most leaders of comercial business care more about price and product than the color of someone's skin. I would be interested to see if there is emperical data out there that proves, other than a casual observation that general relationships occur, other than a sort of Bible Code relationship if you will, that choices by leaders in business, who happen to be white, are made because of skin color. I do not believe they are. I think it is more of a statistical observation based on simple majorities.

Commercialism has nothing to do with this.

The people that write history books are the ones that have to do with this among other people.

Commercialism has everything to do with it. It is about money and opportunity, which leads to advancement and prosperity... the American Dream. People come from all over the world for it.

As far as history books are concerned, there are some definate problems there. We could open a whole other thread to discuss that subject. I do know that there are significant attempts by many special interest minority organizations to re-write history. And I am not just talking about race here, religion as well. Even in the UK: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23398688-details/Don't+teach+that+marriage+is+best+say+academics/article.do

That's the lamest excuse in the world. Stop looking back and start looking forward, if you want to accomplish something. Listen to Bill Cosby, he was shouted down for telling the absolute truth. The only way to oppress someone in the US today, is convince them they can't because someone is holding them down. Convince them they are powerless and shouldn't try. That's been the formula since the first slave/servant/peon in history.

Uh huh, and there are people there who openly refuse to do business with, associate with, and/or are hostile toward non-whites--I've experienced it a few times myself; very ugly. New Mexico has long suffered from its share of racist attitudes, unfortunately.



Um...how the heck did this thread turn into a racism same-old-crap rehash anyway? I liked what we were talking about before.

That is a fascinating presentation...I'm now looking forward to seeing if they turn up anything else at Boqueirao de Pedra Furada, the cave in Brazil.

How is that an excuse? Only learning about white history is something that may seem small but has big effects. That is the racism that hurts America.

You like Bill Cosby because he is saying what you want to hear. He is saying one extreme while other people say the other when it is the middle ground. Not many blacks can relate to Bill and the person I've heard criticize him the most comes from someone who got a graduate degree from Yale recently so it isn't just an excuse.

Come on you know that doesn't hold water in public opinion. Cosby is a leader in the black community. Many people respect him.

Don't tell me why I do anything, got it?
White history? What the fuck is white history? US history? Do you want to change George Washington to Chinese?

Cosby speaks the truth, if you go to a job interview dressed like a hood with your hat on sideways and speaking ebonics, you're not going to get hired. It that so hard to understand?
There's no future in sitting on your ass whining how the man is keeping you down, that's complete bullshit. Dropping out of school guarantees poverty.

Not working for something better because you think you have to work harder than somebody else, is hurting nobody but yourself. Guess what, everybody has to work harder than somebody, that's life.

The problem has moved from the "man" keeping people down to the culture keeping itself down. Bruce has got it.
Black "ghetto" or "gangsta" culture is just as damaging as any post-60s discrimination. It's a culture that centers on crime, a culture that values idiocy, a culture that supports poverty - a culture that creates and enforces all the negative stereotypes.

When people buck the "ghetto" culture, they buck the tendency to fail.

No, just the sole focus on white history by leaving out all other cultures.

That is not what people are criticizing him for. Most people actually agree with what you just said. It’s about his lack of understanding of where most blacks are coming from.

Do you have any idea why these kids drop out of school or the pressures involved? Do you have any idea what their lives are like? It is easy to criticize from an outside standpoint when you have no understanding of what their world is like. Obviously, there will be work involved and I, with most other people, do not want to give them a free ticket if they do not earn it I am talking about the obstacles engrained in society that are holding them back. Every source I've heard has said that the general feelings in inner city schools are much different than suburban which will cause great effects in the future.

If blacks have to work harder than whites that is racism within the system.

If you were more careful with your punctuation, you would sound less like a crazy person. just a tip.

Please...

Assuming you're talking about k-12, I had the history of the World, it was pretty condensed which would be expected and the history of the US which was pretty white. There weren't a lot of important slaves in US history. Others, like the Indians, Mexicans, Canadians, Hawaiians are mentioned when they were significant to the US history. The fact that the US was created by white people, and it's leaders have been white people should be altered to bolster the minority self esteem? There has been some minority inventors and entrepreneurs who made big contributions to lifestyle, but they were not our leaders. History class can't cover all the other people, non leaders, that contributed to building the country, because there are other subjects they have to learn too. Bullshit, he knows exactly where they are coming from. He came from a poor family when there really was discrimination, when it really was tough for a black kid to get anywhere. His advantage was, it was a time when parents parented and didn't allow their kids to give up 'cause the man was holding them down. They were told to get their ass in gear and do the best they could... if they wanted to have something they would have to work for it... that the people they should look up to were not gangsta's, drug dealers and asshole athletes. They were more worried about disappointing their parents or getting a trip to the wood shed than their self esteem.

The obstacles they face today are lack of parenting and largely created in their own society. Rap/gangsta culture, screwed up values, blame the man instead of taking personal responsibility and buying into the 'poor me' mentality is what is killing their chances to make it, not whitey.

They don't, they have to work harder than people that are smarter than they are. They have to work harder than people that will settle for less. They have to work harder than the people that sit on their ass collecting welfare, street hustling and blaming whitey.

I see minorities, every day, promoted to their level of incompetence... and beyond... because cultural diversity is politically correct. As a matter of fact my boss is black. He doesn't strike me as a genius, just a regular guy that worked hard to get what he's got. He's successful because he EARNED it.

Since you're so convinced it's all my fault, tell me what you expect me to do about it? Yes you are... I'm white, I'm part of the oppressive system, I'm the man.

Yes, yes you are, and you do a fine good job of it. :fumette:

For History, I am talking more about world history. It is very euro-centric and the only time Africa comes up is when they talk about religions and Egypt.

Here’s an example how white supremacy is in history. Of course, there is Columbus discovery America, and then the Vikings, and very rarely will they say anything about the Arabs, but what about the Africans that have been to America before Columbus? Never in history class was something like that even close to being mentioned.

Yes, most Americans are European but it is insane how euro-centric history classes are.

I am not 100% certain but I think Bill Cosby is criticized because he is does not the address the racial inequalities that do exist, but blames it all on the community. There is a difference from pointing out what is there, blowing it out of proportion, and saying what isn’t there. He just does the opposite of what most known black leader’s do, which isn’t necessarily better, but I will say a step up.

And I was talking about K-12. I understand that college history is usually a lot different than K-12 history.

This is what I am talking about with institutionalized racism. Ever heard of Jane Elliott

Watch all five videos. Its long (50 or so minutes) but it gives a good idea of how institutionalized white supremacy works and effects of it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=l0gUchvopOc

How is Africa's or Asia's, or India's or Australia's history important to American K-12 students? World history can only be alloted so much time in a full curriculum. US history is more important for American students to understand and US history is eurocentric.
You're right there, I never heard of it. Are you talking about Thor Heyerdahl theory? Tell me how this effects US history any more than the people that have been here 10, 20, 30 thousand years?
well duh, US history is eurocentric.
Unlike Mr Cosby, "Most Black Leaders" are making a tidy living off perpetuating inequality.... it's their bread & butter. How did these people become the black leaders? By telling people to get off their asses and make something of themselves then turn around and help those that follow? Of course not, it was by telling People what they wanted to hear. Tell them it's not their fault, it's whitey keeping them down. There's a fortune in perpetuating the 50's. Black people of my generation, that I work with, had it tough, damn near intolerable. I don't think I could have gone through what they did without exploding. Even they are disgusted with these whining kids.
Yeah, I'm aware of Elliots games, and no it doesn't translate to the real world without intentional application. That ain't happening.

And Europe's history is very dependant on Africa's, Asia's, and India's history. World history is important because it shows how everything came to be with foreign policy and current events.

It affects world and African history. If you do not want world history to be taught fine, but I personally think we should learn about other lifestyles so we can understand current events and other countries.

Or you could go for the middle ground, which neither of them hit.

I'm calling you out on that. It may not be as intensive as that but there is no way that it doesn't apply. Just because you don't recognize white supremacy in America doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Are you going to spend the whole day on World history? There's only so much time, that's not going to increase, so tell me what you want to cut? US history? English? Math? Science? What is less important than World history?
Then major in it when you get to college. You still haven't told me about these Africans that came to the Americas before Columbus, I'm all ears.
Sure you could do that, but the truth would be better.
Just because you imagine the nation is rife with white supremacy doesn't make it so. But white supremacy is such a nebulous term, what the fuck is the definition white supremacy in your little world? Whites are still the majority, am I supposed to be ashamed of that?

Of course people have prejudices, that's the way people are, you can't change that. That doesn't make it institutionalized. And guess what, with the rise of the gangsta/rapper culture there's a lot more prejudice than there was 30 years ago. But it's still a lame excuse for quiting.

Don't tell me that minorities can't get out of poverty if they are willing to work for it. Perhaps you missed the thread on Billion Dollar Roundtable, a handful of companies that spent over $24Billion, with a B, buying stuff from minority and women's businesses last year. Are you telling me these businesses aren't hiring qualified minorities and women? Qualified, not drop outs. Not ebonics speaking thugs, either.

I learned about world history and we didn't cut anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/af...chapter3.shtml

White Supremacy is where the people with power are white and act in the intrests of whites. The news corporations assume all white readers. Is America ready for Obama? No, is white America ready for Obama? Black America is more than ready for Obama. The assumption that America = white America is white supremacy.

I'm not saying that it is impossible, just the difficulty is unreasonable. A white suburban kid can get to graduate school without a sweat but a black inner city kid has to work his ass off, sometime with multiple jobs to get to that point. Scholarships go about 50/50 so it isn't much of an advantage either.

Interesting point, but here's another that seems even more valid: Europe, Africa, and Asia are all land-connected and in each of these places, animal husbandry is practiced. Smallpox in particular is associated with keeping cattle, as in all likelihood it's a small mutation of cowpox. Waves of smallpox infections can travel back and forth from one end of a continent and then back, like reflected waves off a seawall. Multiple continents, inhabited by humans, seem to mean a deeper pool of varied human diseases. Add in some other vectors (by a roll of the genetic dice) and look what you come up with.

Nor did it, we suspect, all go one way. In the early 1490s, syphilis, then present in Europe, suddenly turned virulent and a plague of it swept across the Continent. The timing seems more than a little suspicious.

So why are bitching it's not taught?
Didn't cut anything, yet people study World history their whole lives and never learn it all.
Don't be fooled into thinking what you thought you learned, is all there is. I guarantee it's not.
I say 'thought' you learned, because you might have gotten it wrong, as far as it's effect on the World that's not always apparent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/af...chapter3.shtmlYour link says... This is your evidence Africans came to North America before Columbus? Nigga, please.

You don't think the papers know down to the gnat's eyebrow, who's buying their papers?
Is white America ready for Obama... because the country is what, 12% black and I doubt many of the Ganstas and gang bangers vote so take off some for them. Take some more for children and people that don't bother. Limited power base, isn't it?
Do you understand why they aren't targeted more by the politicians. Not saying their votes aren't important or sought, just limited. I'll bet more Hispanics vote than blacks.
Where the fuck did you grow up? Graduate school without sweat? And pay for it too?
Now I see your problem, grew up privileged and are suffering guilt pangs. Here's a tip, don't. Just take it and run with it, make a fortune and put some ghetto kids through college. It'll make you warm and fuzzy, plus you'll become part of the solution.

Because I want to improve the system...

The same goes for US history and you still want that taught.

If you want more, here you go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Col...ntact#Africans
http://www.jannah.org/articles/precolumbus.html

That has nothing to do with "White America = America" and how that is white supremacy. You just said they are the minority, which is pretty obvious. You can't just ignore the minority or issues like racism and effects of it will show up.

I am not just talking about suburban kids. I will have to take out loans and pay for it just like most of the rest of the middle class in America.

Guilt pangs? Or maybe I see the system as unfair and want to help to change it. You can view them as the same for all I care but I'm not just going to say "fuck you" to everyone that isn't me or isn't like me.

I'm not saying "fuck you" either.
I'm also not saying "after you".
You want it, earn it like I do.

Excellent point.
These cattle-vector disease were not present in the Americas; because #1 no cattle! and #2 the aforementioned decontaminated populace.

A curiously overlooked factor in the "settling" of the "new lands" was that everywhere the Europeans went, there were empty villages and crops already planted! At the time, the massive scale of biological depopulation was well-documented, usually attributed to a gift from God. It is questionable whether European culture would have been able to sustain an outpost of their civilization, had it not been for nature's "helping hand" ...

Our history textbooks, by omitting the disease factor, leave a story in which the Europeans, even if not sqeaky clean on a moral basis, at least prevailed due to some inherent superiority over the Native people. This is Eurocentricism, in other words White Supremacy.

I thought the diseases that wiped out many of the tribal villages came from the Spanish explorers that traveled all the major river in the Americas for a look-see. This was well before anyone came with the intension of staying.

Yes, the diseases came from Europe with the Europeans that came from Europe.