(It's flame time!)

We drive bigger cars here because we live bigger lives here.

We live bigger lives here, because we are ornery John Wayne motherfuckers who left the countries we came from because they were too controlling and unadventurous.

Our ancestors saw promise and most of them risked their lives to get it. After 10 generations of these kind of people coming in, we developed into the most productive country in the world, showing the rest of you bastards how to get shit done.

Using up all the oil in our cars. Fuck you, we invented cars. Seventy years before the invention of the car, you worked out how to use rails to get around... and that was good enough for you. Seventy years, and it never occurred to you that the only thing keeping you to the rails was the rails.

Using up all the oil. Fuck you, we developed all the technology to retrieve and process and use that oil. Oil was around since the dawn of civilization and all you thought it was good for was getting things dirty and greasy. If it wasn't for us you'd be running on coal and steam, and if you like we can talk about how much coal it takes to generate steam and why London was considered foggy during the coal era, and what an environmental fuckover coal is, and how long it would not last if it was still the primary fuel.

You fucks in Britain should not have 4x4s. You do not deserve them, because you do not go off-road in them and you Never Would. You live small, cautious lives. Look at Jinx in her pics. She is doing stuff you would never dream of doing. When was the last time you tied something to the top of your car in order to have fun? Fucking never. Your gas taxes are so high you can't afford the wind drag. And why are your gas taxes so high? Wrong, it's not for some sort of special thoughtful higher purpose. Your higher purpose would still have you on coal, fucking up the environment. It's because your entire economy is set up around your government deeply controlling you and making sure you continue to live these small lives.

You're always welcome to come here and see how big lives work. If you do, unless you cross on the QE2, 99% of the technology that would bring you here was invented here. Chances are the technology that will replace oil will be invented here too. Big lives bring about big thinking and that's why your vehicles do not run on coal and steam, restricted to where the rails are laid.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to load 200 lbs of bass gear into my 17mpg truck and drive 25 miles across country to rehearse.

Edit: rehearsal cancelled today

We drive bigger cars here because they were exempt from fuel-efficiency standards, and American manufacturers didn't want to compete with the Japanese on technology.

We drive bigger cars here because people want bigger cars here. No amount of government interference will outstrip market demand. Partly because we elect the government, but more because market and cultural forces are more powerful than government forces in this country.

Edit: I drive a big Japanese truck

Once the American manufacturers pushed the SUVs into popularity, the Japanese were perfectly happy to enter the market.

the SUVs (although overdone now) were a pretty nice solution for those that had need of something like a station wagon, but didn't like the looks, a minivan - but didn't like the idea of the van, a pickup truck for those that like to get off road - but want to take the family. really pretty handy, if you think about it.
of course, good ideas can be taken too far. seriously - how many soccer moms are carting around there 2 kids in an Excursion?

but in the end, so what? if they can afford it, they like it, and they don't mind the gas bill, why does it bother anyone? people drive what they want - and they should. and people who bitch and moan about SUVs? get a fucking life.

Another reason the Japanese did not want to enter the big vehicle market in the 60s-70s is because shipping costs were higher then.

The manufacturers didn't push them into popularity anymore than the TV manufacturers pushed big screens into popularity. They provided what the people wanted, a replacement for the very practical station wagon that had fallen into disfavor for being uncool, followed by the minivan that had become soccer-mom uncool.

I won't dispute the roll of advertising/marketing, but the bottom line is still the public makes the choice with their dollars.:yelgreedy

You just did.
Of course. But if this was purely demand based, then Jeep would have been the #1 car in the US before the SUV push, having a virtual monopoly of the market. The manufacturers created much of the demand.

Manufacturers create cars. Markets create demand.

the ford explorer has been the best selling suv for a long time. practically since it came out in 1991. this is due, in my opinion to the supply being there to support the demand. jeep has made suv's longer, but the cherokee was too small to satisfy a family of more than 4, and the grand cherokee didnt come out until late in 93. the explorer and the s-10 blazer were well entrenched by then. jeep has never rivalled ford's numbers. mainly, i think because of production amounts. also government fleet deals.

what i'm stumbling around saying is that you two (hm&ut) are both right. there has to be a demand, but if there is no supply, the demand is filled in other ways. if there were no SUV's you'd still see a lot of conversion vans.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/im...am_400x300.jpg

Well that was just totally fucking brilliant.

No I didn't. Manufacturers know which way the wind blows but they don't make the wind, only adjust their sails accordingly. Advertising is to grab their share of the pie. Enough of it could push the market to irrational exuberance, but doesn't have the power to create the market. They only wish they had that power.The pre-SUV Jeeps were pretty hard core. Most soccer moms would not be happy with the ride or effort involved.
The maintenance schedule was also pretty rigorous. Lots of heavy duty whirring and clicking bits that had to be serviced regularly, especially on sand driven Jeeps. My landlord had to repack all four wheel bearings after every surf fishing trip. He wasn't being paranoid, experience had proven he couldn't do it every other trip.:(

After a couple of weekend interruptions, my fishing partner would spend most of a day, during the week, going over the Cherokee to insure a trouble free weekend trip. And this was not sandy surf fishing, but fresh water fishing with mostly paved surfaces except launching the boat.

The growth of the SUV market cause a great deal of development in new design parts with more reliability/less maintenance. It also brought a better ride and less effort.

And marketers manipulate markets.

And long overdue.

I agree , well said UT , Well said !!!!!

what a wonderous thread........


almost.



Although I know that Ford said 'history is bullshit', I might remind UT that your did not in fact invent cars...... just the means to mass-produce them more effieciently.... which led to another problem... how to sell them.... so you invented marketing....

...and as for us UK folks not needing 4x4's, i tend to agree..... except the Wicked StepDaughter went out and bought one the other week just so she could tow the horse-trailer (hi, lookout......).... I may never speak to her again. Not that she' d understand my Public School accent anyway (hi Bri, how's it keeping? That time of month again?)

not to point out the obvious, but you are a petty little man, aren't you?

who, me?


Nah, surely I'm too pretty to be noticed by the likes of you.

you know, you actually kind of remind me of a couple of twits i had to deal with in the british embassy/ Riyadh in the mid 90's. the condescending fucks constantly referred to the US as "the colonies". dumbshits. i don't feel i'm superior to you because you CHOOSE to drive a different car than me. i don't feel superior to you because you CHOOSE to believe the type of car a person drives reflects on their character. i feel pity for anyone so self-righteous that they look down on another because of a stupid vehicle. makes me wonder what other intolerant attitudes you hold.

mmm...... ok, now I know why you DON'T feel superior to me....


tell me why you DO feel superior to me...

*scrolling back through posts* which post was it that i wrote something about not liking people because of a simple vehicle they choose to drive??? let's see now... oh wait - i didn't. i didn't step up to the plate and state anyone was stupid for NOT driving the same thing as me. i don't care what you drive or even if you DO drive. you've made a decision that SUVs are bad. ok. good for you. but then you step up and condemn those who don't share your view. uh, sounds a bit condescending to me. that i don't like - but it doesn't make me superior to you. only more open minded.

I don't remember saying SUV's were bad. Or condemming dissidents to my POV. I do remember say you were all wankers, though.

read post #77.

Well this is a thread I'd have been better off having not read.

There is similar debate over here about large vehicles on suburban roads.

I agree that some people would be better off saving the environment and the rest of society by buying something they can more easily drive.

At the same time, large vehicles were originally built for a purpose, and that was for towing, off roading etc. We're considering buying a 4x4 because we want to get a bigger boat, but we wont be able to tow it unless we have a bigger vehicle. Alternatively, maybe we'll just get an even bigger boat and moar it instead. ;)

btw, I'm the one that does all the towing too, so I have a right to comment on this issue. :)

:corn:

btw...glad you'll all ok jinx. Smashes are never good. :(

That one, lookout? where I was agreeing with your viewpoint that SUV's & 4x4's were irrelevent to an urban enviroment except in certain extenuating circumstances? like towing horse-boxes to off-road commons?

Sorry, my fault..... should'nt have used irony on you yanks...

Jeez, both of you shut up!

big suv's in an urban setting are silly. so are cowboy hats. making suppositions about a person's character based on what they drive or wear can be hit or miss. not all brits are haughty and condescending. not all americans are rednecks or blingers. being smug and abrasive, however, will only lower your stock.

i hold these things to be self evident.

the associated debates are rather interesting, though. personally, i find myself more interested in the differences of viewpoints with respect to the nationalities of the posters. it makes sense that an urban ensconsced Londoner would deride the SUV, as in their reality, they are not useful, just wasteful and annoying. but to an american, whose lifestyle supports the expense, and hobbies require the utility, it makes perfect sense.

we could have bought a minivan to cart the kids around, and a little 4x4 for our adventures, but the cost of insuring and maintaining 2 vehicles didn't compute. If i had a choice of a daily driver, i'd be driving a GTI which gets 25+ mpg. jay, sproglet, don't project your emotional response to our car onto our personality, and i won't assume that you are a charicature of a monacled british prigg.

In Australia atm, there is are a huge number of people driving suv's and 4x4''s of other varieties simply because 10yrs ago, people started saying, 'it's safer to drive the kids around in a bigger car'. It's interesting that this discourse arose at about the same time as the department of transport started advertising campaigns such as 'speed kills' and 'if you drink and drive you're a bloody idiot', with shots of people mangled and killed and in all sorts of pain.

Has the number of larger vehicles helped reduce the carnage? Nope. It's getting worse because there's more vehicles on the road. Not because of the size of them, just the number.

My personal issue with some people driving 4x4's is that they've got no idea where the vehicle starts and ends and are constantly running into things or bumping other cars etc in a series of minor bingles which simply wouldn't happen is less competant drivers were behind the wheel of something more manageable.

Recently, the number of large vehicles being purchased here has dropped considerably since the rise in fuel prices and interest rates.

I would say that 'the golden age' for the 4x4 is almost over and it'll get back to being a more proportionate number of them on the road before too long.

I'm beginning to think there is more anti-British feeling in the States than I had ever anticipated. Even on this fairly liberal board I have come across far more Brit-bashing posts than I expected (in fact I thought it was a myth that 21st Century Americans saw us as stuck-up).

I'm not saying the responses to individuals weren't warranted, but to read a reply (not in this thread) to Buddug where someone who declares himself an anglophile says, "It's no wonder some people have such a low opinion of Brits" hurts.

I did select a number of comments from that thread and this that condemn and criticise the whole of my country, but seeing how many different names I had it was frankly depressing.

meh. i like brits. the accent especially. sounds a little smug, but that's part of the charm.

The nationalities of the recent asshats is immaterial to me. Trolls are trolls. I like *you* SG...doesn't make a whit where you're from.

I like brits... but then again, I wasn't one of those that was saying bad things about them. You get bad apples in any bunch. I think part of the reason the other dwellars were bashing the brits is that is a good way to piss of the offending person. They say Americans are bad, so we retaliate, even if it isn't 100% true. Don't worry SG! You are loved! :lovers:

I love you, Sundae (though, not in a gay way--'tho there's nothing wrong with that!) and I have always felt bad that posters like Jay, sprog, buddug and hippikos made me mad enough to "bash Brits"--sadly, those four push my buttons beyond my limit. I have lashed out in emotionally charged anger at "all" Brits. I don't hate Brits, at all!...my dream has always been to visit England (though, after getting a gut full of the above usual suspects, I've turned my sights towards Ireland/Scotland!) and I feel a real kinship towards the land of my ancestors. It is hard, though, to endure post after post after post of America-Bashing. No matter what happens in the world, the above named blame us. More importantly, though, is that sproglet, hipp, bud and Jay have never allowed us to get to know them as HUMAN BEINGS, they've only insisted on furthering their agenda ad nauseum. I hate confrontation; I hate discord; but I don't like to be summarily judged--judged by the actions of a very few--not unlike the Muslims Dana is constantly reminding us to TAKE AS INDIVIDUALS.

And BTW--after all I said, the only response jay made was, "are you on your period?" Nice. Does anyone, anyone at all, find that response offensive? I did. As if a woman has no opinion other than her hormones. All I can say is, "Jay, you ignorant fuck"---

Geez...I tried to bring this thread back to some semblance of reasonable discussion but everyone's still cranky...and just on the day when I need cheering up. :(

i'm not going to go back through my posts and look, but if i madecomments that sounded as if I dislike Brits, I apologize. individuals can be assholes regardless of accent or lack there of. In fact, some of my best friends are...:rolleyes:

What is wrong, Ali? Anyway--this is an evil thread. Start a new one!

Nothing really wrong. I just woke up with the blues this morning and feel like crying...and before anyone asks, NO I'm not otr or about to be or anything like that.

I'm just having an attack of the sads. :(

I can't think of a better way to re-arrange this thread.

I've had the sad's before. It's usually based on my past--like, ferinstance, what if I had been GOOD instead of BAD? that sort of thing....

lol...regrets, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention. ;)

mmmmmm.....Ali, you really should check out Simon Drew....


But, more importantly, I do offer my apologies to Brianna. I agree I was out of order in my flippant and discourteous reply to your post.

Thank you, Jay. I don't know what else to say...

Who is Simon Drew?

simon Drew is british artist/cartoonist with a wicked sense of humour.

For example, a postcard cartoon of bunch of fish tied together under the caption 'joined up whitting' ...... ok , so its a visual thing. I'll try and scan some of his stuff for you tomorrow.

Cool...thanks Jay.

Nah, you just live louder lives :P

Kitchey kitchey koo. :D

Don't! That tickles!!!

Nancy's brother?

damm.... sorry, Ali, I promise to scan some of his works, but events overtook me. I will do so, but probally until nearer the weekend ( the whole earning the daily crust thingie is going to get in the way of my life for the next day or two)

poor you Jay. lol You should become a lay about like me. ;)

Check out this link. read down the comments too. :) http://www.janegalt.net/archives/009523.html

About the 'its no wonder...' comment I made...

When people like Buddug uses britishness as justification for racism, hate, and all that bullshit, it makes ALL brits look bad. And since the pricks are the loudest, the ones who only hear them... naturally would come to not like brits.

I followed the link. It made me laugh :P
a) SkyNews is not our equivalent of CNN.....it's our equivalent of Fox news. Might just as well judge American values and understanding by watching Fox as judge British ones by watching Sky.
b) We are shit at American accents it's true. Americans are traditionally shit at English accents also. You notice our bad American accents but do also notice your own bad English ones.?....we notice your bad English accents, but we also usually notice poor American accents also. The most vitriolic attacks on English actors attempting American accents invariably come from Brits.
c) the vast English of majority of English people far from 'knowing all about American politics' are thoroughly bemused by you.:P

For some reason, a lot of Americans believe that the Cockney accent is the standard one. This may be a WW2 leftover, just like "pip pip".

Dick Van Dyke's accent in Mary Poppins is absolutely *ridiculous*. We apologize. I myself can't watch it.

Renee Zellweger in Bridget Jones was OK, wasn't she?

Renee Zellweger's accent was absolutely stunning. Flawless.
I can only apologise for Hugh Laurie's accent in House:P

If you don't like her Jeep you would love my Dodge Ram.
What a Maroon!!!

I don't understand the whole Big car thing. Doesn't it just mean you use a lot more petrol?