Iraq isn't helping the oil flow, but that's only because we are losing. We are there to build a democracy in the region so we can have power and influence in a region that has lots of oil.

Since we are tangled up in the Mid East and spending a lot of money there, we should look at why we are doing that, and why we have been doing it for decades. It's to keep the oil flowing. We need to be there. We depend on their oil. Sometimes our meddling works. Sometimes it doesn't. Right now it isn't working, but we are still spending that money there for that purpose. The money comes from your income taxes, and it comes from selling debt to foregin countries. That debt will be paid back by future generations, and will result in a drag on our economy. We will pay for Iraq, one way or another.

All of these costs are hidden from the populace. They won't realize in 5 or 10 years that the reason they are having trouble making ends meet is because they were driving SUVs in the 1990s. If that cost was upfront. And consumers could see what their choices actually meant, then I think many consumers would make different choices.

The Iraq war is costing $2 Billion each week. That works out to $7 a week per person in the US, or about $30 per household per week. That's $1,500 per year per household. All, presumably to keep our influence in the middle east strong so that the oil will keep flowing.

My car gets twice the gas mileage of some of the larger SUVs. If that cost was reflect at the pump instead of coming out of my income taxes and future earnings, then my portion of the cost would be smaller. I'd be paying only $1000 per year while the SUV owners would be facing $2000. With math like that, in your face, at the pump, I'm certain fewer people would buy SUVs.

Over time, with fewer SUVs, our oil dependency would be reduced, and our need for meddling would be reduced. An added bonus would be that alternative fuels would have an easier job competing.

All it would take is for congress to impose a tax on gasoline to pay for any meddling in oil nations that it approves, instead of taking it from our income taxes.

I think our world cop role would be reduced dramatically. But I'm sure we would still be the world cop to some extent. I'm only suggesting that we have a gas tax to pay for our world cop role when it is in an oil region. Other areas should be paid for with income taxes.

We ARE? Oh crap...has anyone told the government? :worried:

Threadbare
 

Moose Poaching in Alaska --------------------------------Iraq War & Oil


Gotta love the evolution of dem Cellar threads.:neutral:

Then don't... oppose the war.

Fewer SUVs = lower oil need... in a dream. Commercial use is where most goes and will continue to. You want to really change things, lobby your reps for lower fuel requirements for commercial vehicles and see if you can get them to respond with a straight face.
The impact of the day-to-day consumer is minimal. Again, if your use dictates an SUV or truck, buy it, that is what they are for. What others buy is none of your damn business...

All I'm asking for is a free(er) market in energy.

Big ass Dodge pickup smashed the rear end of the Echo this afternoon... the smugmobile will be laid up for a bit.:sniff: My truck gets <20mpg the Echo gets about 44mpg, this is gonna suck.

Saddam's Iraq was a pariah. A democratic Iraq would be the same for the same reasons. That's really stretching the term "influence".
I think any influence would be our military presence kept there.Whoa, not so fast. All the billions to Israel every year is to keep the oil flowing? And Pakistan? And Turkey? That was supposed to keep the Soviets in check, not oil. Of course once you've spoiled them, you can't stop. I agree all this wasted money in Iraq is coming out of our pockets, eventually.

Hidden? What are those links to, secret files? It's in the news all the time, mind boggling numbers, telling us the cost of this war.
Horseshit, if all the SUVs vanished overnight, we'd still be spending billions in Iraq. If we stopped using oil overnight we'd still be spending billions in Iraq. Hello....War on Terror?Take a look at the DOE chart below, it's in quadrillions of BTUs, but you get the picture. About 40% of the energy comes from oil and about 28% (about equal what we import) goes to transportation. A little less than half of that goes into gasoline, roughly 45% or 12.6% of our energy usage.
Now you're telling me that if the Suvs suddenly got 30 odd miles per gallon, we wouldn't have to dump billions into the war? I'm going to pay more for gasoline to buy oil from the middle east to fly those planes and drive those trains and boats with oil. Don't forget heating the houses and factories.? Or making the plastics?
You're saying SUVs = high petroleum imports = War. That is not true. Stand on the corner for an hour and count the white vans going by, you know, tradesmen, plumbers, electricians, etc. There's a hell of a lot of them and they are on the move all the time. Since we don't get oil from Iraq that doesn't count, right? Oh, region.... well, we'd have to pay for watching Cuba since the Gulf is a oil region, right? Do you have any idea what a nightmare you're suggesting? You try to make it simple but it's not. It's terribly complex. SUVs are not the problem or the solution. Politics is both.

Poaching Season?
 

Am I too late?

:rotflol: You are funny!

Poached
 

I saw that coming...:blush:

Yes, I know what a nightmare it would be. That's the point. If people don't feel it, they won't change their behavior. We're paying the cost anyway, we may as well assign that cost to where it belongs, so we can make informed descisions, and the market can adjust where it should. I'm tired of subsidizing everyone's SUVs. And you are right that it's not just SUVs. The market will spread the costs around to everyone that uses oil. It's only fair that the people that use the oil pay for the oil.

We pay for every quart of oil that we put into our trucks and SUVs... no one has ever suggested a subsidy to us.

OK, so now it's not gasoline, it's oil...and by extension, everything made from oil, like fertilizer, blacktop and plastic. Oh, don't forget electricity, at least part of it, everyone has to pay more for whatever the percentage of electricity comes from oil.

Let's see now, how much tax would have to be added to a barrel of oil to pay for ...well, lets just say Iraq, for now? And how much of the war costs do we attribute to oil and how much to the war on terror? Does Afghanistan qualify as an oil charge? How about all the oil the military uses, do we pay double tax for that?

I guess Air Force One fuel would be taxed if the trip was about oil. The taxes the government runs up, would they be added to our regular taxes or billed separately? How about oil going into or coming out of the Strategic Oil Supply? Would we pay on the way in or out....or both?

Would oil used for humanitarian things like disaster relief be taxed? I guess Mom would have to pay tax on the oil for her sewing machine. What if she was sewing bandages for the Red Cross? Oh yes, would the cost of the 50,000 bureaucrats to handle these taxes be paid from the oil tax or the government budget?

I guess we'd just write off the American fishing fleet.... and American shipping would be out of the question. Of course, the American based airlines would be ok on their protected routes. And American farmers would be ok if increase the subsidies to cover their increased costs of fertilizer, operations and shipping.

Since all those billions in profits the oil companies have been rolling up, don't hold a candle to what Bush is throwing at Iraq, the tax would be what.....$2...$3 a gallon at the pump? Plus, of course, all the other things besides gas, I've mentioned. I wonder how much CDs/DVDs and jewel boxes would go up? Hmmm, inflation might be kept down to what....20% per year?

No, I don't think your proposal is equitable or practical. :headshake

I think it is corporate welfare. I seem to remember a few years back congress giving detroit auto makers about 3 grand for every SUV sold. This is off the top of my head and probably a viscous rumor. Youknow how they start, maybe someone who is more concerned than I may be able to verify this.

But glatt isn't suggesting any new taxes. He's saying that we're already paying for all this, we just don't connect it to the amount of oil that we use. Let's say you were given the option to get a 30% discount on your income taxes, and that money would be added to your gas price instead--so if you don't buy the gas, you pay 30% less taxes. If you do buy it, everything stays the same for you money-wise, but you mentally realize how much money you're paying because of your oil usage.

Thank you. At least someone gets what I'm trying to say.

I realize none of this is ever going to happen, because the accounting is too difficult and it's political suicide for whoever tries to pass the legislation. It would just be nice if we could all make our choices and pay for our own stuff without subsidizing others. Alternative fuels, fuel efficient cars, energy efficient manufacturing processes, etc. could all compete on a level playing field. The market might actually work to help make positive changes.

I think what you are referring to is a tax break for busnesses to buy trucks, that backfired because most SUVs are classified by the feds as trucks. Many small business owners took advantage to buy new toys and family transportation with a big tax break. :haha:

Oh, I get what you're saying. You probably feel I'm going to great lengths to shoot down a simple, logical, premise. But, I don't agree with your basic premise that the billions Bush is squandering in Iraq is entirely, if at all, about keeping oil flowing. I then explained why it's unfair and unworkable.

Besides all the other reasons for this Iraq fiasco, I think it has more to do with getting the guy that made Daddy look stupid, than with oil.
Maybe it's logical to feel it's about oil because Bush's other reasons are stupid, but I think Bush and logic have been proven to mutually exclusive. :D

Lovely example but still unworkable. How do you determine how much of your taxes is being used to insure oil supply? It simply can not be done.
Tell the Federal Government not to do anything in that regard and let the chips fall where they may?
I don't think the feds do much, for only one reason, it's always a "combination of factors". Granted, not the least of which is political clout(donations).:rolleyes:

There is a lot of things my taxes are used for, I don't agree with or approve of, but that's a question of making politicians behave the way I want. I don't expect to see that happen, and I may be in the minority on many of these expenditures, but I still don't like it.
That said, I still have to pay for them.

Yeah, that's the ticket. I did some research and found that out. Then I reminded myself of who told me the original "factoid"/ viscous rumor and realized that I was quoting a notoriously unreliable witness.

I'm gonna stpo reding nwo.

Ever since the Iraq war began, we've been talking here about the reasons for it. As each reason hasn't made sense, Dwellars have been coming up with new ones to try to explain it. First it was all about an imminent threat of attack by Saddam. That was proven wrong. Then some said it was about a sticky flypaper trap to get terrorists all in one spot, but that seems a little too convoluted. Then others said it was about trying to build a pro-US democracy in the middle of the region. A base we could operate from. That makes the most sense to me. It might not be why Bush decided to attack in the first place, but we will probably never know his reasons. Maybe you are right. Maybe it's personal. I'm not sure anyone knows.

In the big picture, it seems to me that historically we have spent an awful lot of time, energy, money, and blood focused on that one region of the world. It's quite a cooincidence that it is also where the oil is. There are more muslims in other parts of the world (Indonesia) where we don't pay any attention. It's got to be the oil. Not the people. Not the religion.

I understand that we NEED the oil. But I just think it would be nice if there was some way to pass the costs along to the end users of oil so there will be some incentive for people to actually conserve.

We had a drought a few summers ago. It was in the news for a while. Most people voluntarily stopped watering their grass and just let it go dormant. A small number of people kept watering their lawns so they would stay nice and lush. I can't fathom that attitude, and I think it's the same attitude that many americans have toward oil use. Except that they don't realize we are in an oil drought because the price at the pump is so cheap. If they only knew. If it was right in their face as they pumped, they might make better choices.

I'm not trying to be all preachy and holier than thou, but I know I probably come across that way. I use oil too. I think most people will make the right choices when they are presented with information. I think most people simply don't think about it.

I agree we've spent a whole lot of time and money in the Middle East to keep the wheels greased(oiled?). I remember when Jimmy Carter told the (IIRC) the Saudis, no, we won't give you a bunch of new fighter planes, buy 'em yourself. I think that's what sparked OPEC.

Of course it was supposed to be about having forward bases to keep the Soviets in check, but that was really to keep them away from the oil.

It really was a good deal, though. The money spent brought the US a great deal of prosperity, before the "Captains of Industry" were replaced by the "Whores of the Boardroom", and created huge competition from the Far East for that oil.

But that said, Bush's Folly in Iraq is a whole different animal. It doesn't make sense in any context, even oil. Cars have always been the whipping boy for oil and pollution problems because they're in everyones consciousness. To blame SUVs, or even motorists is far to simplistic, and I feel misdirected away from the real culprit. :vader1:

The lawn waterer was doing what was best for him/her. It's all about "me", my castle, my investment, my pleasure. There will always be people like that... people that don't believe or don't care, and usually do it in the least efficient, most wasteful, manner.
They continue because their friends and neighbors don't have the balls to shame them, pressure them into doing the right thing.
Of course that assumes they don't have a well for yard use, as some people do around here.