That's funny--I thought that Israel was showing some major concessions to the aggrieved parties in that area. Guess not.

Its a shame that the US wasn't in exsistence when it all began...they could lay this one on us, too.

Here's where we see how important spelling can be.

The US won't reign in Israel.

It might rein-in Israel.

Words matter...in this case a homophone deeply changes the meaning of a sentence.

Why would that stop anyone?

That's moronic. Not all the victims are dead.

Beyond those injured nonfatally or economically or by having their property destroyed or loved ones killed, there are other future victims who can yet be helped by preventing the status quo ante from continuing.

That is an opportunity that was lost once before...had it not been, even the now-dead fatalities of the current fighting might have been saved. Now you're working hard against the interests of the next set

stop with the spelling-flames and haire-splitting, maggie. You know full-well my meaning. The US can exercise enormous influence over Israel, and has done so in the past. The fact that it chooses not to do so now is saddening and demeans your great country. Yes, I know it's an Israeli matter, and that Hezbollah are no angels, but that does not justify the slaughter of innocents nor the desrtruction of the infrastructer of a sovereign (and I would point out, a West-friendly) state. The obligation is upon all of us to help stop the violence....... that the state with the most influence is shirking its obligations bodes ill for ultimate peace in that region.....

That assumes that the best way to end the current violence is through enforced cease-fire. I don't think you've been listening to what Iran/Hisballah has been saying. They have no reason to cease fire. They believe they will win. They also believe that negotiation is weakness.

Israel pulled back to the '67 borders in two places: Gaza and Lebanon. They have now been attacked on specifically those two borders. Why?

You claim to like peace but you want the terrorists to maintain control of the country they have hijacked, with the 10,000 missiles they have built up and the money of oil-rich Islamist fundamentalist dictators with nukes. I don't think this "peace" you have in mind is going to work out. Sure engagement hasn't solved many problems, but disengagement has to be on both sides bucky, especially in this nukular age where the worst case is unthinkable.

Tell me Jay, how much influence do you think we'll have after they've stopped fighting and it's still raining rocket in Israel? They would have to be psycho not to fire back when attacked.

@UT.....

first. drop the 'bucky' bit..... that alone is enough to set your post as antaganostic and agressive rather than debative.... as moderator/owner, you shoulld know better...

To your other points.....


The possiblilty of a voluntary cease fire is somewhat low, so an enforced one seems the best way to stop the killing of innocents on both sides.... and the US is about the only state that can enforce a cease-fire. That it won't do so is what gives me cause to castigate it. The Lebbonese govt/Hizbollah relationship is analogous to the Eire/IRA realtionship (cheap jibe number one: except that Hizbollah didn't get funded from collection tins in New York bars): the major differnce in policy is that the UK (Israel) did not bomb the crap out of Dublin (Beiruit). At that time, the IRA did not believe in a negotiated settlement. but long years of patience and diplomacy finally prevailled.

And, of course, Hizbollah have no more hi-jacked Lebbenon than the IRA hi-jacked Eire.... And at this point, I would like to point out that the Lebbonese Govt is one of the few pro-Western govts in the region.... we should be doing all we can to support it rather than turing a blind eye to its destruction at the hands of the IDF.


Oh, and yeah, the nuclear thing does worry me...... I see no fail-safe for Israel's nuclear force.

@nineth....


what happened to your much-vaunted patriots? Like the guns of Singapore, are they all pointed the wrong way?

I don't know Jay, you may be right, but sometimes I wonder which government is the other's sock puppet. Many Americans have a very strange sense of patriotism, valuing Likuds vision of what is good for Israel over what would be good for the US. The interesting thing is the arguments among Israelis about what is good for Israel appear, at least from here, to be much more open and realistic than the arguments in the States. If it makes you feel better, the neo-com crowd here thinks a wider war=peace and freedom. All you need to do is track down their Kool-Ade supplier and you'll be golden. That said, Israel is in a bad spot, which can only be improved by strengthening Lebanon's internal security, unfortunately that ship has probably already sailed.:(

What, that they're not crafting their foreign policy based on your world view?

I'm shocked. Truly. Your deep knowlege of foreign affairs and insight into human nature deserves the deepest respect. I shall write my Senator within a fortnight.

There will be no ceasefire. Israel will invade Lebanon. Israel is simply waiting for a right time (politically) and maybe for a good excuse. In fact, I expected them to start tonight (Sunday night) because it would create less hype - less adverse reaction than later in the week.

There is no doubt of Israel's intent to cleanse 20 miles into Lebanon. Drive out everyone - innocents and Hezbollah alike. Then withdraw only when Lebanon's army occupies the border. But Lebanon threw a monkey wrench (shrewdly) into Israel's plans. Lebanon said the army would have to attack invading Israelis according to constitutional requirements. That rather stunned the Israelis and may have delayed the Lebanon invasion.

Israel is simply looking for cover to justify their obvious strategic objective - cleanse 20 miles into Lebanon. Literally drive all Lebanonese residents - Hezbollah and innocent civilians alike - for a 20 mile DMZ.

Israel can do so. The United States has told Israel to do just this and is running cover for an Israeli invasion. US is not playing honest broker. We have already declared Hezbollah as our enemy (like Saddam) - just not so publicly. Unlike all previous administrations, this one has defined the entire world in terms of 'good and evil'. No negotiation. As soon as time is right, we will either attack or send a proxy to attack that party, region, minority, or nation. We even play games with words such as nation and terrorist organization just to confuse a mostly ill informed American public with Rush Limbaugh type rhetoric.

No longer is anything to be solved by negotiation. This administration has decided to fix the world whether the world likes it or not - first with military solutions and unilateral attacks.

Only a matter of time before Israel invades. There will be no political or negotiated settlement. Welcome to a new world order that George Sr never envisioned and yet was defined in the Wolfovich paper that also defined unilateral attacks on India, Russia, or Germany. Do you understand why Putin in Russia is becoming so uncooperative and cautious? Why he is reinforcing his 'energy' weapons? Why free speech and the two houses of Parliament in Russia must be subverted?

The unanswerable question is whether Israel will also use this attack to 'soften' Syrian forces. To accidentally execute a major pre-emptive strike on Syria. Remember, the only adjacent nations that Israel will not attack are Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia - and only because America says who they must and cannot attack. Don't for one minute think these leaders are reacting to world events. They now have specific intentions that they would rather you do not understand.

Feel the wind. Something has clearly changed. If you don't feel it, then you are not paying attention to current events.

Tell that to the Marines.

Aiyyo Chief, you'll know antagonistic and aggressive when you feel my steel-toe in your nuggets! Why I oughta ----

-- *koff* *koff* *koff* --

-- my inhaler! --

-- HOO00ooooONK --

-- snuffle snuffle snuffle --


a-haha-hem- a-ahah-hem! Aaaaanyway - As owner, I reserve the right to behave any way I see fit as long as everyone else does the same.

In fact, I asked everyone whether they wanted me to exhibit some sort of senatorial decorum, for the purposes of the Cellar, which otherwise would clearly be much more popular and be a greater source of wisdom and reason;

And they all said I should just stay the grizzly opinionated bastard that I am, so that when I'm particularly incorrect, as I am at least 50% of the time, they can laugh at me and get some enjoyment out of life.

Shrug. I figure, at least I'm providing a service.


And yet it remains completely unused. Not even tested. Perhaps there are forces in the world you are not privy to.

Tell that to the marines?



Your lack of insight is truly amazing, maggie.

Tw's post was extremley though-provoking: I believe he/she has analysed this situation to at least one level beyond my own efforts.

But, this is democratic board,. at least in principle., and you are entitled to your say...

So, maggie, just how would you you stop the jews killing arab children?

you got a frog in your throat there, UT?


(emails a couple of Fishermens' Friends... that should sort you out...)

You provide a good service..... just don't confuse sardonic with sincere.

I'm not Maggie, but... tell them to give the soldiers back and point their missiles somewhere else.
Otherwise, they have nothing to be surprised about.

but..... who's they, 'rken?

If she is referring to a Beruit Marine Barrack attack and another upon the French, well many forget the Marines all but protected Maronites as Maronites shelled Druze and Shi'ite positions. Somehow this then gets blamed on Hezbollah rather than on Druze or Shi'ites? Otherwise I have not a clue what her post implied since Hezbollah was elsewhere.

I know you posed this particular query to maggie, but ... just how would you stop (mostly Arab) suicide bombers from killing Jews?

These events do not occur in isolation.

I don't service you; you might have me confused with your mama.

That's bullshit, as a matter of fact there's a lot of people in this country that believe it's the other way around.....that Israel is Geppetto.

At least you stubbed your toe, nobody here is getting close to Bush.

Oh, and another thing, you sound like an ass blaming the US for your IRA problems just because the ex-pats and their decendants kicked into the tins in the NY/Boston bars. By that reasoning all black people should hate the Irish because the majority of slave owners here were of Irish decent.:rolleyes:

What are you doing for the children that will die next week?

Hezbullah, be done with it. I think Israel is done with being targeted and the kidnapping of the soldiers was the last straw.
If the soldiers are dead then they are screwed and it is their own fault.
Israel has just been pushed too far. They are a nation, end of story and the rest of that region is going to have to get over it.
As for kidnapping soldiers &/or supporting/financing it.... just stupid.

Blaming it on the Jews, evidently.

:flamer: Scotch Irish not real Irish. ;)

What? It doesn't count because they drink top shelf?:lol:

I stand corrected.

Jay is just another sniffy Brit. Why isn't he concerned with the children of Darfur? After all, it was the Brits and the French who sliced Africa up to their liking, ignoring tribal lines. I guess the children in Darfur just aren't as compelling somehow, right, Jay?

Hezbollah knew what kind of response it would get by provoking Israel. They knew, yet, they did not care that innocent Lebanese would die because of their actions. The blame for the deaths of the innocents is on Hezbollah.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/i/t.gifThe tall story we Europeans now tell ourselves about Israel

See, Jay, the Europeans are confused here. Finally in the Telegraph, a moment of realization when the longest-running Tory MP compares current Lebanon to "a war crime grimly reminiscent of the Nazi atrocity on the Jewish quarter in Warsaw". Of course it isn't, but why would he say such a thing?

The UN Charter specifically inderdicts 'collective punishment' as a war crime.
No if's, but' s, or because's......

Actually, I'm somewhat flattered, that six days after my last post, I've gotten under your skin so much that you just had to scratch.....

That's all I want you folk to do... scratch the surface, see under the propoganda (on both sides) and decide just where the line lies.

(as an aside..... 2 weeks back, when Condi was about to visit the region, Bush said she 'would not be visting with an empty satchel' . I remarked to my mate, that proballly means she has some kind of reconstruction plan whereby US companies will rebuild Beruit. Georgie boy confirmed this the other day....

.... actually, it was on the same day they shipped thru the UK the bombs to flatten the very self same real-estate they are going to rebuild.... I guess that's what you might call a 'circular economy')

I believe what they were shipping were more accurate munitions to try to prevent as much collateral damage as possible. :cool:

mmmm...... says it all......

god'damit..... those ayrab towelheads.... all the same.....

I somehow missed the place where when you're attacked you're required to only defend yourself "proportionately"...and when combatants hide among civilians you're guilty of a "collective punishment" war crime when you defend yourself. You'd better do some more detailed investigation of the Law of War, because you're talking out your ass on this one.

What a load of "moral equivalance" bullshit. When you are attacked with deadly force, you are entiitled to defend yourself with deadly force, and you need not stop until you are no longer threatened.

I agree. After 911, we took care of Afghanistan. And then, after Iraq attacked us, we.......wait a minute.....:D

There is no justification for this, maggie.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5228224.stm

Go on, defend the indefensible.....

That worked , then......


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5228224.stm

Yes, we are right back to what is necessary to justify any war - the smoking gun. None existed. But when did that stop Cheney from promoting war as a final solution in Iraq, Iran, N Korea, S Lebanon, Syria, Sudan .... Oh. Sudan has nothing we want. Therefore where genocide does exist, is one sided, and is acceptable by any standards; instead, Cheney has no interest. Clearly Hezbollah is more evil than genocide in Sudan.

200 sunk ships off east coast US was not justification for war. Yes, a country does have the right to defend itself. But even 200 sunk ships is not justification. A trivial kidnapping of some soldiers also does not meet that 'smoking gun' criteria. By now, everyone who was here when we discussed Iraq in 2002 should have no doubt about that history lesson. War without a smoking gun is not justified.

Any chance the right can give up the phoney moral equivelency card? Maybe as a trade for the left's bullshit righteous indignation card? I've read about enough crap from two utterly failed statist systems.

For starters, let's wait until all the information is in.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...3816,00.html#n

Now then.

Aussie Herald Sun, under the headline "Photos that Damn Hisbullah". It's a bit of overstatement but here are their two shots, smuggled out of the area, of un-uniformed Hez fighters, dressed to walk away and blend in, moving mobile cannons and launchers and firing right out of a suburban zone.

http://cellar.org/2006/damn1.jpg

http://cellar.org/2006/damn3.jpg

When irregulars move strategically in and out of civilian areas and are fired upon, killing the civilians, this is a war crime. Jay, it is a war crime for the irregulars. And this is very clear.

Hezbollah is the operational government in the area. It is their job to defend and protect civilians. Instead they intentionally ensure that civilian targets will be fired upon. There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. You can't defend it - it is indefensible.

Only if the left stops playing it. When someone defends themselves from a terrorist attack, they're just plain not morally equivalant. This mindless relativism is intellectually bankrupt. Jay's drivel in this thread is a prime example.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...0-Jul-2006.htm

This page contains four videos of actual Hezbollah rocket launches from the middle of towns, right next to residential buildings and homes.

It also contains a copy of the leaflet dropped telling the citizens to abandon the war zone.

http://cellar.org/2006/ricebanner.jpg

This 30-foot-high banner of Condi appeared on the streets on Beirut hours after the Qana attack, protesting it. Translation: "The massacre of children in Qana 2, is the gift of Rice. The clever bombs... Stupid"

Powerline asks the leading question The entire controversy is understood and employed within hours... if nothing else, the Hez propaganda machine is pretty remarkable, isn't it?

That's a nasty picture.....her husband won't like that. ;)

They must have excellent printing services to whip up that banner in a couple hours...or less.

That's one that that has ALWAYS gotten me about the fights in afghanistan, iraq, and now lebanon...

All the terrorists have to do is throw down their AK47 or drop their RPG and theyre 'civillians', and then when they get a bomb dropped on them theyre just another 'civillian' casualty.

Flown in from the Teheran Kinkos, no doubt.

The same dead bodies are "rescued" over and over for the cameras

Don't visit the link unless you can stomach seeing two different dead bodies being carted around, taken on and off ambulances, pulled out of rubble several times, and generally paraded around for different photographers of different press agencies, for a period of hours and hours.

'loathsome creatures' indeed. I have often felt the wailing and gnashing of Arabic teeth was for our benefit. Here's proof.

Pretty damning stuff, UT.

Which completely ignores reality. Pilots have no idea who they are bombing. They cannot even see rockets, AK-47, etc. A rocket was launched from a town hours previously. Therefore the town's three story apartment building is attacked.

Those rockets can even be launched with a timer. Where a rocket has launched means there is no enemy there. Fire the rocket and leave. Bombs come later to attack the local population. Bomb anything that could be a bunker. In frustration, a pilot is told to attack the town anyway. A rocket came from that town. Therefore everyone in that town is 'evil'. Welcome to a little fact they forget to mention about the bombing.

If Israel really wants to stop rockets and kill combatants, then Israel must invade: boots on the ground. No way around that fact. No way whatsoever. A fact so obvious that everyone here should have known it. Israel is simply punishing everyone in that 20 mile region AND in Tyre, Beirut, on Lebanon's highways, etc. They are all 'evil' since the Lebanese Army does not evict Hezbollah. You knew that pilots cannot even see rockets waiting to launch? You tell me who is and is not a combatant? You cannot because we (The Cellar) nor Israelis have any troops on the ground.

No ground controllers means bombing without knowing who they are. Those bombers are not taking out combatants. Bombers are attacking anyone - including UN personal and aid convoys. Why? Without troops on the ground, those planes have no idea what they are attacking. Anyone who did not know that is fodder for propaganda machines. Israel's military operations make no distinction between civilian or combatant because ground spotters do not exist. Israelis know this. They bomb anyway and tell you they were combatants or regrettable mistakes. There are no mistakes. There are no ground spotters. The purpose is to drive everyone out. How could this not be obvious? Because most people assume planes can see these rockets they are attacking. Wrong. They are attacking long after rockets have been fired AND after combatants have left the area. What is sometimes left? Civilians.

It is impossible to fight a surgically precise war and nobody has ever, nor will ever, do it. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...military targets? Civilians die in wars. That's what a war is. You don't want the bear to attack? Then don't poke him, asshole.

If you are a child in an adult body, then pictures bother you. Meanwhile, this is war. Killing in massive numbers is necessary because of why this war exists. Either one fights responsible or one kills everyone with little regard. Israel did not have to start this war. They could have continued doing what they always did when Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers - trade. Or Israel could have invaded. Instead Israel has decided to target everyone - a free fire zone. Those are facts.

Those pictures are for the children among us. Meanwhile adults are more concerned with what this war means for the future. Adults are concerned how this war affects the living. Those dead bodies are nothing more than trophies. Yes, that is what an adult does when viewing war pictures. Were the trophies done for justifiable reasons, or do they exist because of people who subvert the purpose of mankind.

Take pictures for hours. Does not matter to adults. Adults demand numbers, justification, and justice again those who would even arrange the massacre of 5,000 Palestinian women and children. Current war is not justified. It exists because leaders in Washington would rather labeled everyone in black and white - good and evil. Then fix all problems by only killing evil. A 'big dic' mentality is alive and well. Those bodies of innocent civilians are nothing more than trophies. Take all pictures necessary - and then take more. They are only trophies to those who would rather attack everyone else. They are propaganda for the children in adult bodies. If you are an adult, one picture or a million makes little difference. Instead you demand facts - such as the smoking gun.

Civilians are attacked because Israel will not even put troops on the ground. What cowards they are. If Israel only wants to eliminate Hezbollah, the Israel's strategic objective would have been clear - a complete invasion. Instead, Israel has declared anyone inside selected areas of Lebanon as evil. Does not matter who they are. They must be killed - trophies for a mantle. Nothing emotional about that fact. Israel cannot know who they are killing - no ground spotters. Israel just attacks anything in a free fire zone. What results are trophies. Take pictures to hype adult sized children. Learn from those pictures what Israel's strategic objective is; think like an adult.

Of course a surgically precise war is accomplished. It means ground spotters. Oh. But that is too dangerous. So instead declare anything that moves as the enemy - and kill it. It's called a free fire zone. It is what the US military did in Vietnam when top generals had no idea why America was losing a Vietnam war.

Only reason those civilians are intentionally being killed - Israel does not have the balls to attack Hezbollah using troops. Too many dead Israelis would then drive centrists out of extremists ranks and back to where intelligent people think without emotional bias.

Your post implies Dresden had a military purpose. It did not. It was based in a failed concept that one wins by killing more enemy. Battles are not won that way. But again, first year Military Science. Define a victory. Little hint. Victory is not defined by more dead bodies. Only those with 'big dic' mentalities believe those myths. Military Science 101. Define victory.

tw--you say Hez'bllh 'assumed Israel would do what it always did when Hzbl kidnapped Israeli soldiers--trade. How fucking stupid do you have to be to ASSUME your mortal enemy will do such and such?

I was not implying Dresden was a military target.

I do not have a 'big dic' mentality. I hate Bush as much as you do and Cheney even more. I hate these Arab agitators, too. Lay the blame where it belongs, man. On Hzblh and all their ilk. Do I like what is going on? Of course not, it is heartbreaking. However, if I am not mistaken, Hzblh was ELECTED into power by the Lebanese. They WANTED them.

For the last four years Hez has occasionally lobbed rockets into Israel from S. Lebanon. For years Israel asked them politely to please stop. So yes, this isn't only about two kidnappings. tw ignores what he wants to ignore.

Who is the "you"? Hezbollah wants all this to happen.

Of course they do. The 'you' I was refering to is the phantom 'you' that the Arabs and tw want us to swallow--the wholly innocent Hzblh! They poke the bear, enrage him and then stand by all wide-eyed and stunned that the bear fights back, beseeching the world to look at the crazy, war-mongering bear who does nothing but defend himself in the face of attack. Hzblh is killing the Lebanese children--they poked the bear, wanting the response they got. They wail and gnash for the camera's, but, it is Hzblh who are responsible.

So Israel has been successfully integrated into Hezbollah's propaganda effort. You'd think they could be smarter han the average bear.

Isn't that the feeling you are getting?

The rusty wire that holds the cork
That keeps the anger in
Gives way
And suddenly it's day again.
The sun is in the east
Even though the day is done.
Two suns in the sunset...
Could be the human race is run.

It is exactly the feeling I am getting. I wasn't being sarcastic. Hezbollah has Israel dancing precisely to its tune. They provoke Israel into doing something stupid, and then use Israel's stupidity for recruiting purposes.