I've read E,S&L. Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't say you put a space before a full stop. Nor does anything else I've read.

Though from first grade onwards, I've been taught that the comma before the 'and' is completely optional. I personally put it there because it seems like it should be there to me, but I think not putting it there is just as correct.

Yeah, I was taught the comma before the and was optional, you just had to be consistent. :cool:
This is as much a victim of sentence structure, poor choice of words, as it is punctuation.

Ibram , I do not put a space before a full stop when I am writing with a pen . I just do it when I am typing on a machine . As I have already explained , I have never learnt how to type formally . It is still quite a difficult exercise for me . I think because it is difficult , I have gone back in my head to being a little girl learning how to write with a quill . When we learnt , we were told to leave a space before the full stop , to avoid smudging . What I do is a sort of throwback , if you like . I must stop it . Atavistic spaces .

About the comma ; you are right , and wrong at the same time . There is no static rule , for the comma is not a static entity . It can be used as a breathing device , and it can also be used semantically .

When you say 'I like cats and dogs' , you do not need an extra breath , unless you are a serious asthmatic . However , you may need an extra breath after reciting the list of all the animals in Noah's Ark . You would put a comma before the final 'and' in the latter case .

Now , lets talk about cats and dogs in another way . We are talking about semantics i.e. implicit meaning now . We are not talking about lists any more :


'Cats , and dogs , just lurv Pussymunch croquettes !'


The implication in the above sentence is that you may be surprised to know that dogs too love this particular brand of catfood . The comma has helped us to understand the idea our interlocutor wishes to convey .

The comma is all about fine-tuning .

And now I have bored everyone into a coma .

A comma coma? :)
Not common!

I know the proper format to use when writing, but often, what I am trying to convey seems too dry and unemotional when written correctly. I prefer to write the way I speak, with pauses and interjections in addition to as much personal expression as I can work into the words.

My writing may not win any grammar or punctuation awards, but I get my point across just fine, thank ya very much :) .

Stormie

Well , yes of course , Stormieweather . I belong to the descriptive school of linguistics myself . I leave the prescriptions to the doctors . That said , the describers always start getting prescriptive after a while .

And then we churn it all up again . I love it . It means that I have job-security .

I prefer the Oxford Comma [Red, White, and Blue] because it conforms to the original intent of punctuation: a "musical notation" for the spoken word.

As someone whose mode of spoken communication resembles something like Woody Allen, or Jeff Goldblum, I agree that adhering to proper grammatical rules just doesn't always get the job done. Especially in this day and age, when long-term friendships are carried out entirely via typed text, we stretch to convey that element of humanity in our correspondance.

Better a comma coma than a bored colon.
("Rectum!? It nearly killed 'em!")

Forgetting not the difference betwen a cat and a comma...

This whole dot-comma discussion is hilarious because of the big fight I had with my sales partner. We were at the point of not trusting each other, I kept him too long w/o firing him, and we had some stupid arguments. Finally, I listened to my business advisors and fired the sales guy (who sold nothing in two years).

One of my advisors calls that incident the dot-comma bust.

Incredible how a colon can entrail so much .....

I read this whole post, for some unknown reason and have just one question - Buddog, does this post-it note of yours have a point???

:haha:

interestingly in primary school, the only place where grammar seems to matter these days, i was taught to NEVER use a comma before 'and'. i always feel rebellious if i write 'red, white, and blue' and it always looks wrong to me...

Yes, it looks wrong to me too. But, if Associated Press writes it that way, that becomes the standard.

I think it is really stupid. But, I do not stand in the way of a 100 year old company that writes 80% of the nation's news. That would be foolish.

Punctuation is, and has always been, a printer's convention.

I was taught the opposite. I always had to put the comma in the list. It was never optional for me. The only way there wasn't a comma is if there were only two items in the list. I am so used to the comma before the "and" that I don't think I would do it any other way.

It is totally reasonable of me to ask you to learn to use punctuation properly, rather than put an extraneous space in front of each period and comma. It is also totally reasonable of me to ask you to take your "required reading directive" and naff off.

I read what I choose to read. Of late, that has included several of David Weber's novels, Game Of Shadows and a biography of Teddy Roosevelt.

(The plural of ignoramus is political party. Good "entrail" pun. And Jabbly is right: Don't put a comma before "and" in a list.)

The Oxford Comma is completely debatable. Some use it, some don't.

Source: U of NC.edu

5. X,Y, and Z
Put commas between items in a list. When giving a short and simple list of things in a sentence, the last comma (right before the conjunction–usually and or or) is optional, but it is never wrong. If the items in the list are longer and more complicated, you should always place a final comma before the conjunction.

EITHER: You can buy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in Los Angeles.
OR: You can buy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in Los Angeles.

BUT ALWAYS: A good student listens to his teachers without yawning, reads once in a while, and writes papers before they are due.
So, as stated, commas are optional in a list and it is correct to do either (of course depending on source.) I just think it makes more sense: Verbally "You can buy life...libertyandthepursuitofhappiness in Los Angeles." Why set libertyandthepursuitofhappiness apart from life as if it is a single entity?

Just my humble op!

Stop and say it out loud, pausing everytime you hit a comma.

Now you see why the comma before "and" is inappropriate. The best writing is conversational, not stilted and formal.

Regarding the "one spaces or two after a sentence rule" discussion ... as somebody already noted, using the "justify" command in your word processor makes that particular "rule" superfluous. Any teacher trying to deduct points for it in the PC era is being a bit too picky, obsessing with minor style details while not paying attention to the message itself.

The AP goes out of its way to ensure accuracy and issues prompt and accurate corrections when it's wrong (which puts it several orders of magnitude above, say, Bill O'Reilly). Frequently, two or three versions of one story move in the same news cycle to ensure that the information the AP is correct; 99 times out of 100, corrections deal with minor style mistakes and/or misspellings rather than factuality. The chief exception to this is the sports wire; it tends to be more bleeding-edge in terms of the information going out because of AP members' final deadlines, which in the Eastern Time Zone fall within 90 minutes of the end of prime-time games. Unfortunately for my stress level in my former job, official scorers have a habit of changing their decisions at the last minute (and usually less than two minutes after I had sent my last page off to the plate burner in the pressroom :neutral: ).

An out-and-out KILL signal for a grossly inaccurate story is rarely sent and rarely has to be. I haven't seen any for that reason in over two years; the last KILL orders I have seen were for outdated stories that moved on a previous day which were accidentally resent despite being outdated.

AP style is neat, clean and consistent. It's focused more on delievering the message than it is with miscellaneous style points. It's also what many kids are becoming used to; because most website news is AP, the AP's brand of style will be what those kids see more than anything else.

Disclaimer: I never worked at the AP, but I have many professional colleagues who do work there.

Personally, I learned that a comma is optional before and (though I always use one), there is one space after a comma or semicolon, and two spaces after a period.

On the other hand, my fiance does not use a comma before the last item in a list, and only puts one space after a period.

We grew up in the same area of Texas. Who decided that we were going to learn two completely different things? And why are both acceptable if one is supposed to be "right" over the other?

Although I have had one tiny little conversation about this debate, I really think I've got much bigger things to worry about right now. Just don't tell me the way I'm doing it is wrong, and everything will be fine.