I'm all for lowering the median grade to around 2.6. There is an unbelievable amount of entitlement among my peers and I see it as one of the very large problems within American society today. I've seen multiple times where students will not go to class, play video games all day, and then complain about the two papers they have to write and how their professor is a "bitch" for failing them on a test, even though this professor gave an extension on one paper and already gives a generous curve for the entire class.

Competition is good. Separate the students who will work hard from the ones who feel entitled to be in college and get A's for no work.

When I went back to get my Masters, I was stunned at how comfortable people were with asking for extensions and arguing grades despite clearly given time lines and expectations for work.

Competition is a motivator, indeed.
The first classes of my major were in large lecture halls filled with 200+ students,
and it was definitely a weed-out process.

Exams for the each class were staggered
so students could be spaced apart to prevent cheating.
But that didn't always stop it. One fellow was observed cheating,
and afterward the students around him got together for a "friendly discussion" with him.

That episode lead to a 12-student study group for the next 2 years.
In our group, we soon realized who were our better students,
and the competition took different forms, razzing and chiding,
and the "ill-prepared" were responsible for snacks at our next session.
Not only was there the competition within the group, but we usually nailed the top grades of the class.

And it was not just the grades. I believe we really knew the material.
I went on to grad school and of the those that were Pre-Med, most were accepted into Med/Dental School.

My point to all this is that we knew we were not all among the brightest in those classes,
but the competition within that study group made a major difference in study habits and motivation.

I have a bunch of friends who are TAs and professors and that is probably the biggest complaint I hear from them. I can understand extensions under extreme circumstances and I do personally believe learning the material is the most important aspect of classes but some of the stories I hear are completely ridiculous, especially when it comes to arguing grades in graduate school. If you are in graduate school, you need to learn to take responsibility and accept consequences for your grades. Also, I don't know how it is like in your major but graduate school is mostly about research here so arguing grades is usually viewed as a problem within itself.

My experience was very similar. During my junior year, when classes started really picking up for my major, I joined a study group and worked with them for about a year. Doing that changed my study habits and taught me what it meant to actually understand material. We would compete to become the person that would teach everyone else the subject. Not only was a viewed very positively in a social standing sense, that person would almost always do the best on tests (not counting the numerous stupid mistakes).


I don't know how the hell it would implemented because we are culturally fucked in that sense, but creating competition to be the best student would be the best thing that could happen for our country in terms of education. Besides certain fields which force students to become competitive, most students don't give a shit because there is very little incentive do extremely well. I'm curious to see if lowering the average grade would have much effect.

I agree, and stop patting every child on the head for marginal or below standard work and passing out trophies and medals for participation. When a large group of high school graduates can't read at grade level there is a problem.

If you learn 100% of the material presented, you get an A.
If you learn 90% of the material presented, you get an B.
If you learn 80% of the material presented, you get an C.
If you learn 70% of the material presented, you get an D.
If you learn 60% of the material presented, you get a job.

:p:

Love that!

One thing I would like to point out is that in this country, the gutter press bleat on and on about the poor quality of English "these days" and make out that it's the rare few who leave school with any idea of spelling or grammar, even though they have 5 A* GCSEs or more.

I've spent my adult life being a pedant. I can assure you that public use of random apostrophes (aka greengrocers' apostrophes), words spelled as they sound, homonyms, and inappropriate capital letters have been around for at least 20 years. I think part of the problem is not so much "liberal" education strategies, as "liberal" education ideals. The idea that every person is capable of understanding grammar and spelling in all its complexity, or even that it is necessary for communication and a happy existence.

If I'm driving along and see a sign for "Tea's, Coffee's, Sosidge and Bacon" I will roll my eyes, but it doesn't affect my choice of whether to pull over or not. That's affected by how many lorries are parked there (tends to mean it's cheap and clean) or simply by how hungry I am.

Same with "Sale on DVD's in Isle 6" - part of me winces, but if I'm interested in the sale I'll proceed anyway. I remember being challenged about a sign I'd written apologising for the inconvenience of a till being closed. I was 15, the shop manager was in his 40s (and a very savvy man). It took my obvious disbelief and confidence in the spelling to convince him I was correct (and yes, I was). Would I have been capable of running that store, amanging the staff and the cashflow and the ordering? No. Horses for courses.

My spelling is pretty good, given occasional word-blindness and more frequent typos. My grammer is better than the typical man on the street, but appalling by scholarly standards.

Perhaps the right way to address children "failing" is to get them to try something else.
Everyone will succeed at something.
I can't help thinking that if Dad had been encouraged in his artistic ability, he'd never have ended up as first a van driver and then a forklift truck driver all his life. He ticked along quite happily because it's in his nature, and expressed himself artistically in small ways in his time off. But then he did meet and marry my Mum and be subjected to her tyranny for life - something a man with more belief in his talents would surely have avoided...

I don't know how some people get through, with all their self-proclaimed superiority and smarts. They poo and cry about bad education and people not reading or writing well, but still don't know the difference between "to" and "too" (which is what, 2nd or 3rd grade grammar?) among other grammar and spelling gaffes. These same people will say how that sort of stuff isn't important if everyone "knows what they meant" but then they bitch about schools pushing bad students out the door.

It's quite ironic, in the truest sense of irony, not the non-irony often cited by mental midget idgits. Doncha think? :lol:

It is important for the job I want. I had to jump over basic grammar ( which was out of date by years and years) and beg to get into the business communication class. If I had to write a memo, I didn't want to embarrass myself. With several assignment redos I managed to pull a B grade.

That said, with all of a A's and B's it is basically a technical certificate. I don't think it means as much as my son's A's in engineering. I fear though, that my grunt job will be much more plentiful a job to acquire, than a job with a specialized degree. :( I have my fingers crossed for the youth.

sky, I may have said this before (and I'm reminded because we've talked about office jobs before) but I took a bottom of the barrel front-line entry-level 7 buck and fifty an hour job in my current field...some ten years ago, having never done anything quite like it before. So many of the skills I have now I learned on the job, and the opportunities to move up have been great.

If you find a place you'd like to work, get your foot in the door...you never know where it could take you. (And I'm biased but higher education is a great field with a lot of administrative opportunities.)

If there's a buck to be made...
Here's a company that wants to catch cheaters on exams
using statistics...and their own "proprietary methods".

NY Times
By TRIP GABRIEL
Published: December 27, 2010
Cheaters Find an Adversary in Technology

But there's at least one sane voice in the article

I'm not working in higher education, but have followed the grunt path (volunteering in my case) to get a job I know I'll love.
Shame that it's not all that well paid, but at least I know I won't be tempted to drink at work or sit and surf the web (literally all day sometimes) like I have in previous roles.

Now I just need to get my bloody CRB through!
I swaer, no cheque has ever been as eagerly anticipated as this stupid piece of paper.

For sundae girl : Come on! stupid piece of paper, come on!

Shawnee, I whole heartedly agree!

National Standardized testing and much of the issues surrounding it.

http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/PICNATEDSTAND.pdf

Page 22 shows much of the problems have not gone away. It all depends on where you go to school.