I guess I am not seeing where the revenge angle got into it. It changes much about the way we conduct ourselves in this life if you believe that another one awaits you.

I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.

No, I don't really believe that...seems a bit disproportionate.

That's very Zen, Griff. Most non Buddhists think of Buddhism as being a single religion when in fact there are probably as many schools or variations of Buddhism as there are in Christianity. Perhaps the biggest difference being that you don't have the Zen schools (yes there are many) warring with the Tibetan Schools (also many) like you have the Catholics and Protestants doing.

I say your point is Zen because when it comes to things like re-incarnation, the Zen school is more about "This Very Moment" What will you do NOW?

When I first started studying with my teacher I asked him "What about reincarnation?"
"What about it?"
"Do we die and get reincarnated?"
"Who is it that dies?"
and so on, always bringing you back to right now.

Many people's ideas of "Karma" and reincarnation as being a form of payback are misinterpretations based on distortions from the lens of the Judaeo-Christian ideologies.

There isn't a divine judge meting out punishment in Buddhism. (Avoiding a long discussion of the various deities in Tibetan, of which I know next to nothing) In Zen, at any rate, living a moral and ethical existence does not require the existence of a god.

It's them damn hippies, I tells ya.;)

That is some good onion peeling there, something to ponder.

I do have to adjust my lens after all that Catholicism, it seems I'm as susceptible to that sort of thinking as the heaven and hell folks who helped force my eyes open in the Church.

Correct, based on my understanding of it. It has little to nothing to do with "payback".

Correct again. We are all Gods. You are God. I am God. God is us. I know a bit about Tibetan Buddhism, which is my only interest. Karmic rebirth is completely misunderstood.

Yeah, it's more like cause and effect. a pebble drops in the water and there are ripples. Why is your life the way it is? It's the result of every single choice you made in your life, neither good nor bad. You chose to leave the house without an umbrella and it rained, you got wet. It has nothing to do with being bad or good.

Why am I 35lbs overweight? Because I chose to eat more food than I needed for the past fifteen years.

Ironically, seeing karma as some sort of punishment is rather passive and evading responsibility for one's situation and or actions. Looking at it as a direct result of one's actions is more empowering. The added BS of a judgment only obscures the issue.

It's bred in the bone and won't come out in the flesh.. easily.

As a former Catholic I still check myself, the more I peel though, the more I see similarities and differences. The key difference is the idea of union with God (two becoming one) vs The inherent oneness.

Another key difference is original sin vs. being born perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

In Buddhism, we are all Buddhas, all enlightened. Not everyone has realized it yet. Realized as in made real, not as in understood.

In Zen they are very big on "Don't take my word for it, find out, verify for yourself" This goes back to UT's original posting. Find out for yourself. Belief is wholly inadequate. Belief does nothing for you.

Personally knowing, for a fact, verifying. That is something else.

Faith is the tool of the Devil

Filth is the tool of the Cellar

And don't edit out things he says, either.

Agreed 100%. I usually heavily focus on personal growth when working on my and other people's problems and I found that when self-responsibility is accepted and followed up by self-improvement, those people bounce back much quicker than someone who externally blames their problems. Its much easier to get a boost of confidence from a "okay, I messed this, this, and this up and I will be successful next time by doing this, this, and this" mindset than "there is nothing wrong with me because of this, this, this. I just have bad luck".

Do you have faith your fat ass wont fall to the floor when you sit in a chair? Then start there...oh, Buddha had a fat ass and he only sits on the ground.

Faith in verifiable mathematically consistent physical reality (oak chair supporting 170 lbs.) is hardly the same as faith in FSM inserting himself into our day to day lives, so at present my faith begins and ends with my limited observations. I don't hope for more, but am going through a bit of a world view crisis at the moment so I don't know where I'll land, although I will choose chair or ground in this moment.

Faith, in anyone, or anything, is a waste of time. Faith is wishful thinking. Faith can only result in disappointment.