My rights have nothing to do with the other persons rights. Once another person makes a decision to put my life in danger, i.e. killing or harming me, it matters not to me what their rights are, my rights, at that single point, trump theirs. Someone is going to survive and it will be me. Otherwise you are just a piece of meat for the grinder of predators and criminals. I will not stand for that. The moment the other person makes the decision to do me harm they lose their right to life in my mind. No conflict there. They had a right, they lost it.

ok, I'm not saying anyone doesn't have a right to life, or a right to defend that life. I hope you understand that.

I think I know what you are getting at in this thread as well as the most recent gun thread, I just don't think it is being communicated clearly.:)

I could be wrong and you may just be wacked too!:D

Naw, not really, I just think we all disagree on this issue, among a few others and no one is going to change anyones mind based upon anything anyone says on these threads. :headbag:

Yea, it's kinda like watching a Coke commercial and switching from Pepsi.:D

I'm not exercising my right to kill in self defense. I'm just giving my attacker the maximum opportunity to exercise his right to commit suicide.*

Inspired by the soldier's motto:

*It's not my job to die for my country. My job is to give the enemy the maximum opportunity to die for his.

Not separable, no. Indeed, I'm not sure they can be distinguished each from the other. Or whether it's a distinction without a difference.

And this, Aliantha, is how I know you're a fundamentally sensible creature.

thanks UG...your good opinion means the world to me. ;)

I really think it's the difference between the two universal spiritual laws:

• Law Of Christianity: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
• Law Of LaVeyan Satanism: "Do unto others as they do unto you"

Are you gonna give your attacker the benefit of the doubt, or strike back if you can?

Those who have been adjudged to no longer be their own responsible party still have a right to life; yet, some of them may be stripped of the right to defend themselves (with only a right to be defended by others). The same can be said of some prisoners. The right to life and the right to self defense are distinct and separate in practical application. Considering that what constitutes mental incompetence and what constitutes a crime is in the eye of the beholder in power at the time, the separation between the right to life and the right to self defense becomes a distinction with a difference.

Food for thought.

Though you could use the same argument to conclude it's without a difference too, from that eye of the beholder proviso. A bit thorny, meseems.

This is exactly part of the way I think about this situation. This of course then goes to suggest that one is a natural right and the other is completely regulated by society, therefor, not natural at all. However, the impulse to defend one's life is certainly natural.

And about as inalienable as anything is likely to get. Granting for the sake of the argument that these are two rights, distinguishable, they are inextricably bound together; even the mentally incompetent and the imprisoned still possess the right of self defense -- whether they exercise it intelligently, rightly, or to proper effect or not. This is where keepers come into the picture -- they are a matter of the practical application of such right. The right to do something is not predicated upon actual competence at the doing, as this does not enter into this part of this philosophical question. It is not out of the question, though, to require competence at it, to avoid trespass upon others' rights.

One more illustration of Ringer's Paradox: a freedom restricted is a freedom preserved.

The right to self defense is itself derived from the right to life. It wouldn't make sense to have a right to self defense except against lethal threats. The keepers function [to defend those in their charge] is; also, derived directly from their dependents' right to life (and humane treatment): it is not derived from a dependents' right to self defense.

Exercising our inalienable rights is dependent upon being able to assign the appropriate derivations of social mores and laws to those rights. Playing Devil's advocate here goes to the heart of the personal security versus collective security issue in which some believe that the right to personal defense mechanisms (e.g. owning firearms) can be supplanted by collective security mechanisms (e.g. police) in the right to self defense. Your quoted statement above indirectly makes that argument for them - Q: If keepers (e.g. police, guards, health care providers ... etc.) can provide the right to self defense for some, in practical application, why not for ALL!

A: Because the right to life and the right to self defense are, IN MOST CASES, inextricably bound together.

Everything in moderation.

Well said and well thought, Boxes.